Operation Bumblebee Part 1 Discussion

Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by Challenger, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    I think with Breakdown they opened his chest but his chest was already like a "door" if her ever needed to open it for whatever reason. Optimus could open his chest like that to release the Matrix too. Wouldn't surprise if everybody could "open" their boobs.
     
  2. MTME

    MTME Well-Known Member

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    So Starscream bleeding all over the place in Orion Pax wasn't showing anything??
     
  3. Stygimoloch

    Stygimoloch ROBOT! JET! ROBOT!

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  4. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I just finished watching Operation Bumblebee and am currently listening to the Podcast for the episode. Anyway, something I want to bring up before I even bring up any talking points from the podcast. I was totally expecting this episode to suck because of Bumblebee's inability to communicate or emote what he's feeling without Raf being there to be the translator. As it turns out I was wrong.

    This is by far the most expressive I've seen any Transformers in this series. Bumblebee's face with just the eyes expressed surprisingly well exactly what he was thinking. They still had characters translating what he was saying but for the first time in this series it was almost unnecessary. For an episode that could have been a disaster it was freaking amazing!

    Moving onto the first two talking points, we have a writer from Beast Machines on this episode and a plot device that was first introduced IN Beast Machines. They didn't focus on the device for the episode so unlike other mcguffin episodes it wasn't the entire plot of the episode. I love that it's there but not the entire episode is about it so that's another thing they did a lot better than previous episode of this series.

    They're now talking about how emotive Bumblebee has been in this episode which I brought up first so I won't talk about it again.

    There was another plot device that Knock-Out had but they never said what it was, just thought I should point that out sense the Pod Cast didn't mention it.

    Oh and something else they're talking about that I didn't mention, his beeps are also more expressive, not just his face. Again, really love this episode.

    Moving onto the T-Cog they talk about transformers having biological parts. They apparently liked that, I didn't. I mean, they're ROBOTS, now suddenly they have biological parts. And why would an biological organ be a COG anyway? Cogs are ROBOTIC, not BIOLOGICAL. I don't like there being any indication that there's anything organic about them unless we're talking Beast Machines where they are partially organic with their beast modes. When they're robots that transform into mechanical things there shouldn't be anything organic about them. Even when they are technorganic their organic parts wouldn't be things like a T-Cog because Cogs aren't freaking organic.

    We get to see M.E.C.H. again and I've loved every episode they've appeared in so far. They didn't have a big part here but this is no different. The only thing I would of liked to see from that is that their robot actually transformed.

    One of the shoulders on their robot kinda looks like Optimus Prime, they had it scan a helicopter like Airachnid, but I didn't notice anything from Breakdown there. They seem to be taking what they've learned from different Transformers and incorporating them into this robot. If you noticed anything that resembles Breakdown let me know because there should be something there.

    Oh I liked Bumblebee using a pickup truck as a skate board, I don't like that we never actually see the fight between Bulkhead and Breakdown. They might show more of that in part 2 and then my not liking it won't even matter.

    That truck BTW kinda looks like Classics/Generations Kup.

    Going to the Flash Back talking point. I would have loved to have a guest star voice actor to play Bumblebee in a flash back and probably even bring the Rock back for Cliffjumper because we never really saw enough of him.

    Another talking point I'd like to bring up, this is the second episode where even the characters are saying how stupid Miko is. Ratchet's sarcastic line in Orion Pax "Well if Miko thinks it's a good idea!" and now Bulkhead saying "I don't know how you talked me into this, you're worse than Miko." I'd rather have them write Miko better than to have characters agree with the fans about her. I really feel like Miko is nothing more than a running gag rather than an actual character. I'd rather see Waspinator blow up than to see Miko be stupid, learn something, and then reset button, she's stupid again.

    A fight happening INSIDE THE Ground Bridge seemed a bit odd to me but not entirely unlikely. I mean it seems like once you go threw it you just pop out the other side there's no in between but there could plausibly be an in between. I kinda imagine the in between being something more like Night Crawler where you're not there long enough to even realize there is one. Night Crawler actually passes threw some weird alternate plane of existence when he teliports but he doesn't even realize it. That is where all the black smoke comes from when he teliports for anyone that doesn't already know this. If there was going to be an in between for the ground bridge that's what it would look like but I feel like that shouldn't happen unless there's some error in the ground bridge that shuts it down in that split second it takes to get from one end to the other. Apparently it takes longer to get from one end to the other so what does happen if the Space Bridge is ever shut down while someone is still inside it? I'd really like to see that episode.
     
  5. Dargor

    Dargor Well-Known Member

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    fixed.

    As I said before, "bio" means life; cybertronians are life beings, thus their anatomy and organs are biological, but not organic. This is the point of Starscream´s explanation to Silas.
     
  6. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    I'm glad too that Marty Isenberg did this episode too. I'm suprised that the people who were still complaining about the episode didn't know that yet! Hope he writes for Prime more often!
     
  7. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Biological organs does mean that they're organic. Using Bumblebee's voice box as an example sense that was also said to be a biological organ.

    He said he couldn't simply build one because it's a biological organ however in humans we have been able to simply build mechanical replacements for that particular organ.

    The biological organ is called the larynx, voice box, or Adams Apple. That last one has the common misconception that women don't have one but they do, it's just smaller then men's which is why their voices are higher. If they didn't have one they wouldn't be able to speak.

    What Ratchet said not only indicates that Transformers actually have a larynx but also that they don't have the technology to build an artificial one which is odd because they're suppose to be more advanced than us and we've already done that. The electrolarynx was developed in the 1920's which allows people who no longer have a working larynx to speak again. How is it that highly advanced aliens don't have a piece of technology humans developed about almost 80 years ago?
     
  8. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    quoting myself since this theory essentially resolves the whole "bleed vs not bleed" issue and no one seems to have acknowledged it.
     
  9. Stygimoloch

    Stygimoloch ROBOT! JET! ROBOT!

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    Its not that he's incapable, he just doesn't have the resources. There's probably a lot of other factors in play her, like what the voicebox does during transformation, what materials are needed, how it connects to BB's brain, ect.

    Also: the term biology was used simply to illustrate how Cybertronians are infinitely more complex than "machine". They are living organisms. They're not organic or carbon based, like us, but they are not "robots", as the phrase is commonly used.
     
  10. Oberoniss

    Oberoniss DOESN'T-EXIST BABBU

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    Exactly! People keep bitching about how they can't be biological, but they're motherfucking aliens bitch. Just because they transform into Earthly things and speak Earthly languages and look like robots doesn't mean they /are/ Earthly robots. They're aliens, with alien biology and alien customs n' shit.
     
  11. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    "Biology" is anything they dont fully contemplate. Arms and legs are easy to build. but an eye? a voice box? Brain? T-Cog? all things much more difficult because they dont understand it. they dont understand it, they consider it to be "biology" something im sure only a few could understand, like Primus, the Quintessons, possibly even G1 Alpha Trion.
     
  12. optimusprime42

    optimusprime42 Autobot Leader

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    i did see starscream cut himself
     
  13. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    No one ever said that they were "Earthy" robots just that they are robots and being alien doesn't make them any less robotic. It doesn't really matter what freaking planet your from organic is still organic and machines are still machines. Being alien is not an excuse to say oh well on their planet machines are organic. No they're still machines.

    As I pointed out earlier a voice box actually IS easy to build. We've been building them for almost 80 years. Granted not as long as prosthetic legs and arms have been around but still if we can build something why the hell can't a highly advanced alien race?

    BTW no one ever said that they don't understand it. Starscream explained that all their "biological" parts run on Energon and will reject any other fuel source. This would imply that they have parts which are not biological and can use other fuel that isn't Energon.

    Basically the closest I can figure out is that this is a translation error from Cybertronian to English. Humans likely don't have any words to explain living robots and Cybertronians maybe don't have any words for organic live so the two things got confused in translation.

    Anyway artificial voice boxes with our limited technology only allow people to speak in weird robotic voices. Transformers should be able to fully replicate any voice they want to. If we keep developing our own technology some day we should be able to give people their own voices back or any voice they want instead of that weird robot voice they're stuck with now.

    That kind of ruins the illusion that they're an advanced alien race when we have 80 year old technology that they haven't even invented yet.
     
  14. TylerMirage

    TylerMirage I vawnt my berdt.

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    Not sure why no one's acknowledged this, Torque. This is a pretty good explanation. :)  Me gusta.
     
  15. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    ^ thank you! that to me just made the most sense. Another example-i can take a part out of my car with minimal fluid leakage. but if you stab my car, you could easily nick something and make it leak.


    and SaberPrime, it depends on how their voice boxes work, it may not be like our technology. if its energon that flows through like delicate pipes or something that vibrate for their voices, then thats very different technology that can't be replaced by a simple speaker. Obviously I'm not sure if that's how it works, but it has to be something more complex than our technology. There are tons of ways to make sounds, and I would guess the tech in the alien robots can't simply be fixed with our tech. The two are just incompatible.

    I mean, a high-tech missile is very state of the art. but you cant go and hook a set of speakers to it.



    And when i said they don;t understand, i misspoke. I meant they may not know how to make replacements. those delicate pipes in a voice box may be impossible to create outside of how they were "born"
     
  16. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    I'm not saying you're wrong or that I disagree with you, but I think their are two major factors to consider why we're seeing what we're seeing: Censorship today isn't the same as it was back when many of us were children--TV programs are much more violent now, and society seems to be okay with it; and the other is money/time. We've all heard how expensive this animation process is, and the studio is doing what it can to save money. Animating hundreds of little sparks, an array of colorful lights, bullets, moving liquid or whatever means more time and money--cutting these things saves money, as does removing shadows (though I believe Transformers Prime has them). While story may call for certain visuals, I think time and money play a role just as large.

    Okay, well if that’s the case, I think we need to think of them as aliens and not humans. Their skin is obviously much tougher than our own. I assume their innards are too. Why should they be made to bleed as we do? Still, I can’t help but think some are trying very hard to liken Cybertronians to humans.
    Like this poster here:
    I blame Hasbro for this, as they’ve always marked this brand as “Robots in Disguise.” Maybe this is how they beat the censors, but anyone who’s watched the show should know that the beings from Cybertron are aliens and not robots per se, at least not in the same sense we humans define them.

    They are living beings with a completely different body make up than our own. What happens to us doesn’t necessarily happen to them. Can we survive take a hit from laser fire without showing signs of damage? Can we survive the vacuum of space without the proper gear? How about places with no breathable or very thin air? These guys can! They aren’t humans or anything of our world, so why do some want to continue to apply our rules to these alien beings?

    I think those taking issue with the lack of blood or whatever will enjoy the show if they accept the fact that the Cybertronains are an alien species and simply embrace the fiction for what it is, fiction;) 
     
  17. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    It's possible how their voice boxes work is different than what we know of on Earth but that doesn't change the fact that the technology does exist. It doesn't necessarily have to be "compatible" to work. Technically speaking our own technology isn't compatible with us, if it were the sound generated would already be an exact match for our original voices instead of having weird robotic tones.

    The tech is a replacement not a fix. Our own vocal cords don't work the same way as a speaker. That being the case it wouldn't matter how their voice boxes work, they could take Earth technology and put it in Bumblebee to allow him to speak. He wouldn't have a proper voice but he would at least have a voice.

    Using Movie Bumblebee as a better example, it doesn't really make sense that he can't talk when he has a working radio. There are two possible outcomes from this. One being that his voice box would actually be his radio in which case if he can't talk then he can't use his radio either. The other being that the radio can act as a voice replacement system sense it has the speakers to create sound. The second one seems to be what he's doing but apparently he can only use sounds that are being broadcast on the radio frequency and can't create his own sounds which he should be able to do in either case. He has working speakers, he just needs a way to run speech threw them which is also possible with our technology.

    To put it simply, a new mechanical voice box in fact can be built. Saying it can't because it's biological is the same as saying you can't build a new arm or leg. Arms and legs are actually harder to build. They've been around longer but not to the same extent as they are today. What I mean is older prosthetic didn't really have joint movement. A wooden leg use to just be something to stand up on and make you walk weird because you no longer have a knee. Now days, I don't really understand how it works, but people can RUN with fake legs that have knee joints in them and you can't tell that they're any different than someone with legs. These still aren't perfect but defiantly better than what we had 100 years ago.

    The issue with the knee joint is that there aren't any nerves connected to it to tell it when to bend and when to lock. That's the part where I don't really understand how they work. Vibrations needed to make sound and having a speaker to project that sound has been understood and replicated a lot longer than how to make a knee bend or lock when needed without any real way to tell it when to do that.

    Actually what you should know is that the original Transformers were in fact robots. They're alien robots but still robots. They were BUILT by the Quintessons so they are robots in every sense of the word. The fact that they're also living with personalities doesn't make them any less robots. Think Johnny 5, he might be alive but he's no less a robot than any of the others built by the same company. Being aliens doesn't change a damn thing about them.

    To put it another way saying that they're not robots just because they're aliens is like explaining away mass shifting by saying they're aliens. So G1 Soundwave can change from a standard sized tape deck light enough to be carried by a human to a 40 foot tall robot because he's an alien and the laws of physics are different on Cybertron? Or even better, Optimus Prime's trailer and Omega Supreme's launch pad that seem to magically disappear and reappear where ever they're needed. Yup that all makes perfect sense because they're aliens.

    Sorry it don't work that way, the laws of physics are the same anywhere in the universe. Just because they're aliens doesn't mean they can do the impossible. That would be magic, and if they can do magic then they shouldn't be limited by their technology.

    There hasn't been anything organic about Transformers until beast machines and even then they were robots. It's kind of like a reverse cyborg, instead of an organic with robotic parts they were robots with organic parts.

    The movie and now Prime has introduced the idea that they're actually organic.

    Oh and I'd also like to point out that in Animated Sari, Blackarachnia, and Waspinator were the only technorganic Transformers. Most everyone on Cybertron had a phobia for organics so they were in fact machines. The Dinobots were simply built to look like animals so there was nothing truly organic about them. Sari scanned a human and ended up with a human alt mode that showed signs of being organic in several episodes before it was reveled that she was in fact a robot. Elita-One was attacked by giant alien spiders who's venom some how turned her into Blackarachnia. And Wasp was an experiment where Blackarachnia cased him to turn into Waspinator. I'm assuming she had intended to try and reverse this process on him as she needed a test subject to remove the organics from her.

    Anyway point is, Transformers have always been machines. Only Technorganics have organic attributes but they're like reverse cyborgs, robots with organic parts rather than organics with robotic parts. Seemingly in the movies and Prime all Transformers are technorganic or cyborgs. I'm kinda thinking cyborgs for the movies because of the hatchlings. If they were technorganics then they'd be built as robots instead of grown as organics. Not sure what the hell is going on with Prime.
     
  18. megapork

    megapork Cheese

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    First point, This isnt G1. Just because other continuity says that they are just robots doesnt mean a completely different continuity has to follow what the previous continuities did. Things change, the world is in a constant flux.

    Second point, "Robots in Disguise" is a human perspective. People from different places and culture see things very differently and such may have different interpretations of each other. For example, When Europeans arrived in africa and saw the natives they probably thought they were a species of animal and on the other side, the natives probably saw the outsiders as some kind of alien being or deity. The same is for the transformers, Humans have never really seen an living alien (who has similarities to human tech) before and such they will attach whatever imagery they have experienced and seen to what they have never seen before to create an explantion for it. Even the transformers themselves never refer to themselves as "robots in disguise" or "transformer".( Though Airachnid did refer to her own race as transformers to help communicate to Silas and Mech.)

    Third point, T-Cog Argument is invalid. Humans definitely dont have any literal cogs of any kind, Nor do we have Processors, Optics, or Sparks. But we have similar organs like the brain,heart and eyes. We can consider those as counterparts to each other. Still we dont have T-Cogs or similar organs cause maybe be ause we are not cybertronians are we. But Are T-cogs literal cogs. Cogs are defined as mechanical parts which provide nessesary though minor functions in a machine, Or as Subordinates in an organized group providing nessesary though minor functions. Organs are cogs, They work together to create an organism and to maintain it. In summary, T-Cogs are not actual cogs but are organs that act like a cog much like how the spinal cord relays nerve responses to the rest of the body, T cogs relay responses to allow transformation.

    Fourth Point, Biology. BIO:LIFE LOGY: STUDY. This is very basic but must be reiterated. Biology is not the study of Carbon based organisms BUT OF ORGANISMS IN GENERAL. If an object displays the characteristics of living things(Reactivity to stimulus, Adaptiility, Organisation, Growth, Use of energy, Reproduction and Evolution) then they are considered organisms. Transformers display all 7 characteristics. though reproduction has yet to be toughed on. Since Transformers are living things, they are organisms. And since they are organisms what do you suppose they have: ORGANS

    I absolutely loathe Transformers being represented as being nothing more than lifeless, soulless robots programmed to immitate organisms, (g1)
     
  19. WoundSave

    WoundSave Well-Known Member

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    as a preface to the following wall of text- im going to say i've worked as a funeral director- so i have a fairly in depth understandng of blood, organs, biology, and all that.

    Biology is simply the study of living things- so if transformers are alive we can "study" them and call it biology (though xenobiology would be a better term maybe) Sulfur based lifeforms exist in ocean vents, completely cut off from sunlight throughout their entire evolution - and a few years ago Nasa scientist managed to encourage a bacteria to substitute Phosphorus for Arsenic (very poisonus). Phosphorus is one of the elementary building blocks of DNA, and therefor of life itself. These bacteria were able to switch out for Arsenic when phosphorus was not available, and evolve into a new strain with a unique, DNA sequence in a matter of several generations. The point is, lifeforms on our own planet have already been discovered that bend or break some of the principal defining aspects of all the other forms of life on the planet, but we still talk about their biology and organs (or in the case of bacteria, organelles) - so using the term organ for a transformer's t-cog or spark chamber is not ridiculous or inacurate in any way.

    a few things to consider about blood (and energon in turn)

    bllood's principle function in humans (well, living creatures on Earth really) is to carry Oxygen to our cells constantly. Without a constant glut of oxygen, our individual cells start dieing very quickly, (causing severe damage to heart adn brain) leading to castatrophic system failure, also known as death. Blood secondary function is to house our immune system in such a way that it can be delivered en masse to any part of our body.

    When you fall and scrap your knee- your circulatorry system is suddenly exposed to the open air environment- which is a concern cause if bacteria can get inside and overwhelm your immune system you'll get sick and potential die from a septic infection if it gets really bad. The platelets in your blood are sent to the open wound to clot, and therby close off the point of entry for those nasty bacteria. The white blood cells are actively isolating and combatting the bacteria that already made it in. Itchiness and inflamation are signs of your immune system at work. Getting your kid to wash of their knee to stop the itching/burning feeling right after a fall serves to clean away the bacteria so your immune system has less to deal with. One of the most common bacteria that your body will be dealing with in these circumstances is C. welchii.

    It would seem fair to say that since Transformer can survive extreme temperatures (at least longer than we can), and the vacuum of space- that their biology (and the individual components therein) does not require teh same constant glut of energon as we do oxygen. in the same sense- they don't need to bleed for the same reason we do, cause when they punch and shoot each other, they arent at risk of infection from bacteria like CL welchii. Whether or not they actually have a system of veins and arteries carrying energon to their toes and fingers (and everything in between) hasnt been directly dealt with to my knowledge. Their t-cog probably needs a portion of energon when they want to transform, or deploy their weapons, but otherwise doesnt require constant intake (If a fan in your computer is not turned on - how much energy is it using?). They bleed maybe when some internal system gets injured, or simply for dramatic effect. Maybe its fair to say that energon only flows through their innermost working, not under the surface of their metalic "skin".

    It is still a bit of a question mark why bumblebee didn't leak at all when they opened him up. really it relies on how energon is digested and distributed by a Cybertronian's biology? does the crystal get transferred into a liquid and circulate? a gas? Do the vapors we see coming off of it just kind of permeate their way into the transformer and sustain. Bee was lying on his back while they performed the operation so maybe all the energon just pooled in his chest cavity and was reabsorbed back into his system. Is the blue fluid we call tranformer blood actually more of a lubricant rather than an energon rich blood-like fluid (you would think transformer would need some form of lubricant to transform smoothly - all those metal parts).


    The implication that they can freeze to the death (the scraplets episode) basically implies that if cold temperatures can slow down the energy/energon/atoms enough that their spark chamber, or some essential organ, can't do its job, they will die. It would have made more sense to me if OP and Arcee had been worried about going into stasis lock- not dying, afterall- the scraplets survived that long frozen in the ice. kind of trying to remmeber exactly how the explained it in that episode.

    In some sense- i think energon is sort of mystical- ie they take in some energon and it just sort of sustains them through osmosis or something- they need more energon to fire their weapons, or recover from damage, but they dont need as much energon in a day as humans do food and oxygen. Maybe another organ transformers would have is the "energon processing assembly" basically their digestive system....
     
  20. optimusprime42

    optimusprime42 Autobot Leader

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    why did optimus mention the great war.. meaning G1
     

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