Only a Prime can defeat the Fallen

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Torque, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    i know this topic has been discussed in the past, but i dont think this answer has been posted yet-it just occurred to me while watching what this could possibly mean-i remember a while ago there were arguements about it, and it just occured to me:

    after the remaining Primes (not the original 7, but the descendants) saw what had happened with the Fallen betraying them, the decided that all future Autobots would be built to not be perfect, not solid, not...so awesome. The Decepticons only knew the Fallen, and I doubt he would share his designs with lesser beings. The autobos could have made themselves like primes to destroy the decepticons with ease, but then had the same problem they had with the Fallen. but to preserve their lineage, they would preserve it with certain bots. like Optimus. but despite his awesome strength, they would make him not as resilient, in case something went wrong-which is why Optimus could beat the Fallen, and how Megatron, who i clearly not a prime, could kill Optimus.

    another thought is that when they say "only a Prime" they mean the only good guy strong enough to win is a Prime-however, Megatron, who isnt a good guy, may have been strong enough to beat him, but wanted to learn more from him first.

    waddya think? obviously not cannon, but plausible?
     
  2. Sioce

    Sioce Radicon in training

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    I think you are mixed up on how the TF come to be.
    They are not built as in an assembly line, they are hatched, as the scene in the nemesis shows.
    I have always thought that the "Only a Prime can defeat me" line means that only a prime is immune to the fallen's telekenetic/magnetic abilities. When it comes to brute strength and fighting ability I don't think anyone would argue that Megatron could probably take the fallen.
    Course Megatron only beat Prime in the forest scene because Prime was worried about Sam. Had Prime been focused on the fight at hand I think the decepticons would have lost thier leader, thier second in command, and Blackout's knockoff.
     
  3. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    i knew about the hatchling thing-i figured though that it would be a little like genetic modification-they change what "genes" the hatchling has-they restricted certain ones, so noone could be the next Fallen-someone too powerful to be stopped.

    cool with the telekentic idea, never occured to me-nice!
     
  4. Attacker_Prime

    Attacker_Prime Optimus Prime forever

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    My theory of the Primes having descendants works like this:

    A Protoform (hatchling)'s body is created, then a Prime splits his spark in two, and puts a piece into the Protoform. The Protoform is given life with the Allspark, giving it energon, and regenerating the spark into a whole spark, half like his parent's, and a new, individual half, resulting a new person. The spark of the Prime, due to the energon in his body, regenerates.

    There were many descendants, but the Fallen killed them all, while they were weak, except for Optimus, who he didn't find.

    As for the bodytype matters, the Primes were the first Cybertronians, and couldn't transform. As technology progressed, transforming bodies were created.

    I also believe that being a Prime/Descendant of a Prime makes you immune to the Fallen's telekinesis.
     
  5. Omega Charge

    Omega Charge Prepare for trouble...

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    It was never said that only a Prime could defeat a Prime, only that only a Prime could defeat the Fallen. In the narration, Jetfire said the Fallen was stronger than his brothers. So it would take a Prime, but unlike the other Ancient Primes, one that could match up against The Fallen's powers. Apparently, "Power-Up" Optimus was more than enough.

    I like the immune to telekinesis idea though. And not being a Prime, I don't think Megatron might have been able take down The Fallen either, or at least not kill him outright by himself. Who knows what kind of special powers The Fallen has besides telekinesis and teleportation that he could have used in battle against a non-Prime.
     
  6. Omega Charge

    Omega Charge Prepare for trouble...

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    That all sounds very good. And the descendants would have some immunity, at least to the point where it they would have a chance. But I think The Fallen is the most powerful of all the Primes, and thus of all Cybertronians. Until Power-Up Prime came along.
     
  7. Rogzilla

    Rogzilla Well-Known Member

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    I always just kind of assumed it was like some sort of prophecy. Like in Lord of the Rings, "No man can kill the Witchking of Angmar."
     
  8. Kraken2009

    Kraken2009 Megatron's Right Hand

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    If that is true, I wish they actually put in something that would make the Fallen seem powerful. They definitely should have showcased some more power, because, given the way the Fallen was portrayed, I think many could have taken him.
     
  9. smkspy

    smkspy is one nice fucking kitty

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    "Only a Prime can defeat a Prime...except you, Megatron, can kill Optimus Prime despite him being a Prime."

    Silly plot point is silly, but I like to think that The Fallen was just scamming everyone (and possibly himself) into thinking that only a Prime could kill him. He is a Decepticon after all.
     
  10. Liege Prime

    Liege Prime Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I think this is where a lot of people had problems following the story. I think a lot of the point was that Transformers don't follow quite as technical a path as we think just because they are constructed of inorganic material. They showed a "robot heaven", so that was showing they have some amount of religion or "mysticism" to them. So, I think what it meant about Prime killing the Fallen was simply a Prophecy that's been passed down through generations.
     
  11. Ktulu

    Ktulu Whoosh TFW2005 Supporter

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    I just don't see where the prophecy even came from since it was well known that several Primes working together couldn't get the job done in the past. The history would have seemingly dictated it false. Though cliche, perhaps something simple like "he can't be stopped!" would've worked better? I think it'd be easier to accept than citing a known weakness that already has a lot going to disprove it even exists. We're already used to the "unstoppable powerful force finally gets cut down" kind of story. It's used time and time again but it works.

    I can't buy that one Prime with a jet-parts power up is more powerful than several individual Primes either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  12. Liege Prime

    Liege Prime Well-Known Member

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    That's why "mysticism" has to fill those plot holes.
     
  13. smkspy

    smkspy is one nice fucking kitty

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    In a way, I agree with you about it being a destiny of A Prime eventually killing the Fallen. I think the problem lies in how they described that story. The scenes go from the Fallen beating the Primes to them scarificing themsellves to hide the Matrix. It has no feeling of events happening over a period of time, but they happens exactly one after another without pause. It begs the question of when exactly was prophecy created, and by whom? Was it the Prime because they couldn't defeat the Fallen, and when did they create it? Was it the Fallen? I dunno.

    As many times as I've watched the scene where the Primes fight the Fallen, it sure seems to me like they were kicking his ass, yet it was described as them losing. I dunno, maybe I just can't tell which one is the Fallen.
     
  14. Liege Prime

    Liege Prime Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... the story telling was a big issue, and a lot of things begged to be explained that weren't. I guess I just assumed it was the opressed bots after the Fallen came back from his failed Sun destroying trek. Of course, over a course of time, they must have totally forgotten about the Fallen since Prime seemed to not know anything about him.
     
  15. Ktulu

    Ktulu Whoosh TFW2005 Supporter

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    Too bad the movie itself didn't bother

    I'm with you. I've always wondered, if they could beat him down enough to get the matrix away from, and have him down long enough that they could actually go hide the thing, why weren't they able to kill him exactly? Oh, he was stronger than his brothers, right. How did they accomplish as much as they did then? That whole back story just keeps turning on itself.
     
  16. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    Optimus Prime had to combine with Jetfire's parts, & without them, I don't think it would have been a victorious battle.

    Everyone keeps saying that Prime killed the Fallen, but I don't see anyone bring up the fact that he had to become two robots in order to do so, so technically without Jetfire's parts, the Fallen could have killed Optimus.

    None of the Fallen's brothers supposedly had the strength to beat him, but none of them had parts from another robot.
    This kinda brings up what Liege Prime points out, that maybe Optimus Prime was destined to kill the Fallen. :rolleyes: 
     
  17. Black Oracle

    Black Oracle Black Convoy's Dark Angel

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    Unfortunately, ROTF just doesn't explain this issue enough. But one could hypothesize a few ideas as to why only a Prime could kill the Fallen and how Megatron was able to kill Optimus Prime.

    I personally think that what the Fallen meant by 'only a Prime could defeat him' was that only Prime descendents could feasibly stand a chance against his Prime powers, since they may have the capacity for similar powers and born resilience against them. But that doesn't mean that Primes are invulnerable to damage from other beings, just that other 'lesser' beings woulds struggle considerably more in facing a Prime's great powers.

    Optimus Prime, having lived in ignorance of his lineage for most of his life, could have understandably developed little to no knowledge of his capacity for greater powers, hence rendering him weaker than his ancestors because of a lack of awareness of his capabilities and how to develop and use them. This could explain how he was as vulnerable as any other Cybertronian and thus could be killed by Megatron.

    Also, by the time of the events of ROTF, The Fallen may have become weaker than when he first fought his Prime brothers centuries ago due to lack of energon since the loss of the Allspark and Sun Harvesters been inoperable without the Matrix (which had been hidden by the other Primes). So this may have aided Jet-powered Optimus in standing a better chance at defeating him; the Fallen was not at full strength in his final battle against Optimus.

    I'm actually posting a fanfic about all this: http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-fan-fiction/277624-rising-sun.html
     
  18. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    nicely put, Fin.
     
  19. MarioBilll1

    MarioBilll1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm just saying. If you can only be beaten by a prime, and I just killed Optimus Prime earlier, then technically that makes me more powerful than you, doesn't it.

    Nno. Ththat doesn't make... eh... no.

    Really?

    Uhhhh... at last we'll have revenge... right? I'm... I'm the leader... ya know?

    Yeeeeeaaaaaah. Were done here.

    Awwww! come on man!
     
  20. Spartan Prime

    Spartan Prime is an apathetic douchebag

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    That was never said. What was said is that only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, which says nothing to the effect that no one can defeat a Prime.

    Silly argument is sillier.
     

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