On the Subject of Kup

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Decay_is_awesome, Nov 25, 2010.

?

how would you like to see kup portrayed?

  1. hes old but he can still kick ass and take names

    58 vote(s)
    65.9%
  2. hes probably a bit too old to be out there on the front lines but experience is his weapon

    17 vote(s)
    19.3%
  3. kup was never that old and your stupid for reading so much into it

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. what the hell is up with your pathological aversion to caps and grammar?

    13 vote(s)
    14.8%
  1. Decay_is_awesome

    Decay_is_awesome Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Posts:
    488
    Trophy Points:
    121
    Likes:
    +1
    ive always liked kup. hes probably among the last true g1 figures i owned before action masters and machine wars and then beast wars were released so hes the onei have the clearest memories of opening and enjoying.

    i liked him in the movie and in the subsequent third season. his defining characteristic has always been his age and his experience. hes not as good as he used to be, but his knowlege and unshakable cool makes him worth a dozen younger standard soldiers. my issue, and the point of this thread is what does everyone think of his idw incarnation. i enjoyed his spotlight, it showcased his will as well as his failing body, but after his rebuild he seemed to turn into an ironhide clone. almost any panel hes in, dialogue and all could be replaced with ironhide and nobody would know the difference.

    ironhides unique traits are all now kups, old but still 'got it', check, tough physically and mentally, check, no time for flashy tactics, check, mentor to the new guys, check.

    while kup was always arguably these things his original incarnation seemed to point at him being older still. he wasnt a dominant force on the battlefield but he could hold his own. what made him valuable was his mind. hed seen it all and knew how to deal with it. as far as planning and tactics nothing could surprise him. ironhide was a fading warhorse but kup had already faded. he wasnt physically useless but a straight fight was no longer his forte.

    it made him a rare type of character. he wasnt an old wizened master like yoda, and he wasnt a tough hardcore aging soldier out to prove he could still fight with the best of them. he kind of showed us that growing old doesnt have to mean growing useless. not being able to be an active player doesnt mean you still cant be incredibly valuable.

    even his extremely knowlegable mind showed his age with him losing focus and going off on tangents. it was mostly played for laughs but his experience was starting to get the better of him. i loved this about him. age was slowly but surely chipping away at him but it was also giving him his defining strengths. not everyone has to be a beast on the battle field, or a perfectly honed mastermind to do their part.

    with a fanbase thats getting steadily older (not to kups extent but a lot of us are slowly approaching 30s and even 40s) which version of the character do you think would be more interesting? everyone is afraid of growing older and deteriorating, and there comes a point you just cant hide it anymore, and kup was at that stage.

    david cronenberg once said 'we've all got the disease - the disease of being finite' and kup showcased that in a way that also managed to convey that old guys can still kick ass, even if they cant literally get up, fight their way through a horde of goons and drive their foot into your ass personally.

    what say you?
     
  2. Wollstone

    Wollstone Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Posts:
    4,238
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +0
    I like the old grouchy loud mouths who can kick as much ass as they expect everyone else to.
     
  3. superpunch

    superpunch Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2010
    Posts:
    307
    Trophy Points:
    76
    Likes:
    +0
    kup was ironhide clone from the g1 cartoon straight off the bat
     
  4. DarthCrusher

    DarthCrusher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Posts:
    1,037
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Likes:
    +4
    I don't really think of Ironhide and Kup as being clones. In the cartoon, Ironhide was sort of Prime's oldest friend and unofficial right-hand man, while Kup was a grizzled old veteran who'd seen it all, and was sort of like Hot Rod's Obi Wan (although their bickering was more akin to Han Solo and Chewbacca, I suppose).

    In IDW, Ironhide is still Prime's old pal and fellow soldier, but really seems to act as Prime's enforcer more often than not. Kup, on the other hand, is the badass drill sergeant who's seen it all, and is more like a Nick Fury analogue.

    Plus, he got himself a sweet cyber-stogie, which is irrelevant to the discussion, but looks cool.
     
  5. Kupp

    Kupp Ford Fanboy TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Posts:
    2,729
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    216
    Likes:
    +1
    hmm, well seeing as he is my favorite post movie g1 autobot, I am perhaps a bit biased.

    I see him as a knowledgeable and experienced veteran of many wars who is best of training and preparing others while still being able to chip in in a pinch. I see him as someone who is capable of holding his own in a fight but not in a protracted conflict. He is the old guy everyone underestimates and uses that to his advantage, the benefit of experience.

    His age and experience was a needed counterpoint to Rodimus' relative youth.

    I never cared for Ironhide much, because Optimus didn't need him the same way Rodimus needed Kup.

    I also suspect Kup is looking for that one last battle to go out in a Blaze of Glory.
     
  6. kryptofred

    kryptofred super-con

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Posts:
    756
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    Ebay:
    I think you missed a key idea here, user_name. He's old, but he's also a machine. And part of a race designed to adapt. For those reasons I didn't like Kup's spotlight, and much prefer his AHM revamp (although the explination for his recovery could use some work).

    I viewed him and Ironhide as starting out together, but ironhide was offline for millions of years while Kup was out experiencing...well, everthing.
     
  7. Tigermegatron

    Tigermegatron Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2010
    Posts:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +3
    I'd prefer he acted just like he did in the 1986 TF movie & season 3 of G-1.

    I don't want him to be as strong as cybertron vector Prime was.

    Perhaps Kup can act more like a mentor type teacher figure. where he has a few students that he teaches
     
  8. Brainchild

    Brainchild Dark Flame Master

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Posts:
    5,554
    Trophy Points:
    176
    Likes:
    +1
    I think Animated Ratchet is the definitive old guy robot.
     
  9. weeklyhero

    weeklyhero Prototytan

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Posts:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Likes:
    +10
    I always prefered the old Kup that mentored Hot Rod vs the Kup that leads any team. He was a lot more interesting when he had all this experience and shared it through stories instead of throwing orders around to everyone.
     
  10. Grimlock_13

    Grimlock_13 Reformed Geewunner

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2002
    Posts:
    23,608
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    327
    Location:
    Boise, ID
    Likes:
    +86
    I always saw Kup as the retird veteren who could still kick the shit out of a tough talking youngster, but would need some rest and lots of Country Kitchen Buffet afterwards.

    I didn't like Kup much growing up but these days I like the character a lot.
     
  11. Chopperface

    Chopperface Holtzmanned

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Posts:
    9,912
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    227
    Location:
    Holtzbert
    Likes:
    +137
    Kup can definetly kick some ass and take names, and is fun to listen to complain about his age and his war stories. I love the archetype of an old kickass soldier.

    After watching Full Metal Jacket, I think the definitive voice for Kup after his G1 voice is R. Lee Ermey. With Animated and Generations calling him a drill sargeant, Ermey'd be perfect.
     
  12. kaos

    kaos the original thirteen

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Posts:
    3,468
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Likes:
    +0
    i always thought of cup as a sean connery type of character..u know not only would he kick ur ass but he'd make u look stupid doing it as well....
     
  13. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Posts:
    82,111
    News Credits:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Likes:
    +479
    Option 1.

    He's R.Lee Ermey if he was a Transformer.
     
  14. NexusZero

    NexusZero 強度の、勇気の愛、平和。

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Posts:
    460
    Trophy Points:
    76
    Likes:
    +0
    I think Kup was always an Ironhide clone, he was physically weaker, but also older I guess.

    I like Kup's character, he's like the badass grandpa you never had.
     
  15. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Posts:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    Actually I think the R.Lee Ermey/Hartman comparison is pretty poor for Kup - if you want to stay with his G1 incarnation at least.

    The FMJ character was a nasty, unpleasant, brutalising bastard with no sense of compassion nor tolerance - sure, drill sergeants are meant to turn boys into warriors but thats not Kup. He may be crotchety, grouchy and cantankerous but underneath it all its just because he cares about those around him and doesnt want to see them get hurt, as opposed to them a bunch of pussies whos weakness and stupidity disgusts him.
     
  16. Optimus Prime23

    Optimus Prime23 Lighting our Darkest Hour

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Posts:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +11

    And that was Ironhide, before Kup came on the scene. Just check out Ironhide's Techspecs.
     
  17. Chaos Muffin

    Chaos Muffin Misadventure Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Posts:
    28,751
    Trophy Points:
    322
    Likes:
    +4
    Kup is one of the greatest TF characters of all time IMO.

    Would be cool if he had a mouthplate like Prime when he was young.
     
  18. Coeloptera

    Coeloptera Big, bad beetle-bot

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Posts:
    2,613
    Trophy Points:
    151
    Likes:
    +0
    That's the stuff. He's seen this war pretty much from the beginning and I often get the impression that he was even older than Prime, Jazz, Megatron, Starscream, and that bunch. I always felt that in most portrayals, the '84 crew was fairly new when the war started, but 'bots like Kup already had a few millennia under their belt by then.

    Imagine the carnage and death he's seen among Cybertronians that up to that point were pretty much functionally immortal. Friends he's known for thousands of years are suddenly getting killed and he's forced to get into the thick of it and learn all he can while surviving. By the time we meet him, it's been ages, and he's still here. Every life he can save with his experience is a gift, so he's sure not shy about sharing it.

    Can you imagine, even with the fairly low casualty rate Transformer fighting has, how often some cocky young Autobot didn't heed his advice and ended up torn to pieces or melted into a lump of cracked metal out there? It would make almost anybody insistent about giving that advice. Also, the proof is in the fact that he's not dead. He's been through the worst of it and lived. After that long, it can't be chalked up to luck anymore.

    I see someone like Ironhide as being all about taking the fight to the 'cons, doing damage, getting in there and getting the job done, while I see Kup as knowing all there is to know about making sure you get to drive home again after the mission is done. It's a subtle difference, but one I think makes both of those characters more distinct from each other.

    - Coeloptera
     
  19. moreprimeland

    moreprimeland Optimus told me to do it! Moderator TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Posts:
    21,781
    News Credits:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Likes:
    +185
    He chomps on a metallic cigar and kicks butt.. what a bot :D 
     
  20. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Posts:
    17,587
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Location:
    Robot Narnia, Quebec
    Likes:
    +88
    Interesting topic, and a well-written introduction.

    I think you raise an good point... IDW really didn't make much of an effort to develop Kup beyond being Ironhide 2.0... and while I loved both of Nick Roche's stories featuring Kup, I think his importance has become perhaps a bit too inflated.

    My problem with IDW Kup, is that he seems TOO good. Every single damn TF, from Prime right on up seems to have held Kup in some kind of awe as a mentor. It seems like he's been there longer than ANYONE... heck why not just make him one of the original 13? He's also apparently so highly ranked that Prowl and Jazz have to defer to him like a couple of grade school kids when the babysitter arrives, which is a bit much. It's too much.

    There's also the issue of Kup's Tech Specs... again, like most of the Movie characters, it's probably best to just IGNORE the stats from their first release, when they were probably inflated to help market them to kids. If you compare with Hot Rod, Blurr and Kup's stats from their Targetmaster release a year later, the stats are a LOT more reasonable, and seem to fit the characters much better.

    Yeah, I think this is true to some degree, especially in terms of how they were used/perceived in the fiction... However, if you go by the old bios and Tech Specs (and I do), I think we can start to separate Kup and Ironhide from each other to some degree. They both tend to get painted with the same "ornery old guy" brush, but if you go back to their roots, they aren't quite the same personality. There is more than one kind of old guy, after all...

    Ironhide is all about being "tough". He's abrasive, down-to-earth, grouchy, and full of old cowboy values... that is to say, he's basically a redneck. He's not one to complain... or to listen to reason. He's gained some wisdom over his long life, but he's still the type who values actions over words, guts over brains, and tends to fall back on being mean enough to pull through anything (remember, he's got nearly indestructible armour). He's in Security, so he's basically like an old cop (or sheriff I suppose)... he's macho, throws his weight around a bit, and doesn't make an effort to be "nice".

    Kup on the other hand, is a talker. He'll talk your audio receptors right off! Because he's been around for so long, he's got a million stories, and he REALLY wants you to hear them all. If you read into his original bio, you get the impression that sometimes he talks too much, and might be a bit of a know-it-all, when he isn't griping about how his knee pistons are shot, or how his shoulder servo tends to glitch when it's raining. However, this still makes him the guy you'd go to for advice, because he HAS been around, and probably made it this far by being a wily old coot.

    Who is older? Hmmm... hard to say. Ironhide's bio is the only one that makes any mention of any creeping decrepitude due to his age, but then Kup, like many of the Movie bots, never had any listed weaknesses. My personal preference is that Ironhide was older back before the Ark got lost, but then after he took a 4 million year nap, Kup is now the older one... with 4 million years of service under his belt... which ought to be a long time for ANYBODY (TF or otherwise).

    I think it's worth pointing out that Ironhide's bio is all about how tough he is, while Kup is all about his experience. Interestingly, in Kup's long bio, he's compared to Shakespeare's Falstaff (from HENRY IV), which implies that he has just a little bit of the scoundrel and troublemaker in him. He's a mentor, but not necessarily an authority figure. He'll teach you the tricks for staying alive that they don't teach at the academy... ;) 

    Looking at the stats, here are some fun facts...

    Ironhide is higher ranked and more intelligent than Kup... implying he's actually the guy that went somewhere, while Kup is the career rank & file guy who gave his whole life to the job, but never made it to an officer post... maybe because he talks better game than he plays.

    Kup is actually stronger than Ironhide, and has matched Endurance, though he lacks Ironhide's specialized armour. Kup's a brick! Quite possibly he started his career as some kind of labour bot (maybe transport... his name IS short for "pick-up" after all!).

    Disagree... even old machines break down over time, no matter how much restoration work you try to do on them. And the "compatibility issues" that Nick Roche used to explain why Kup couldn't be completely refitted is awesome because it very accurately reflects the fact that TFs are still machines, and suffer some of the same problems manufactured technology does. :) 

    Exactly. This is my favourite explanation. Now if only Hasbro would canonize it already. :D 

    :lol  I like that. And he'd talk constantly during his recovery too... talking about the fight, talk about how he's been in this situation before, talk about how his strained gaskets don't re-seal like they used to...

    ...now if you could be a good lil' prototype, and get me some of that premium oil off the top shelf...? I'd get it myself, except my rotator cuff is still misaligned... thanks, Primus bless ya, lad! Sure would be nice to have some Trithillium solid fuel cartridges to go with this... but you wouldn't know anything about that! Before your time! Well let me tell you, you've never had anything like it, not like those rotten chemical cells that they put in the electric engines these days. Don't listen to what those maintenance bots tell ya, there's nothing like the feel of internal combustion in your energy converters, makes you feel like you just got your pumps refitted, and I've had mine refitted 67 times now, so I know... though let me tell you, the exhaust'll take the enamel right off a blast-door, it's so toxic... speaking of exhaust, I think I feel a bout coming on, heh heh... wow, that was a bad one... ha-haa... just like mineral carbon waste! Speaking of that, did I ever tell you about the time I was lost in the methane pits of Ragos IV, carrying 2 wounded Autobots, with 3 flat tires and 9 Predacons on my trail? Yeah, yeah, sure there are only 5 Predacons NOW, smart-aft! Just listen to the story... but I'm getting ahead of myself... it all started 2 solar seasons earlier, back when Prime was still running Moonbase Omega... no, not that Prime, the one before him... no, no... the the OTHER one... what was his name again...? The funny lookin' one... but wait... where was I again? Right... the methane pits, me lugging 5 fallen comrades, with all 15 Predacons on my trail.......

    ;) 

    zmog
     

Share This Page