New thoughts on Decepticon origins and the Fallen.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by SentinelPrime, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    First of all, you have to understand one thing. I do not consider the ROTF prequel comics as canon. I just don't. I don't think anyone involved with the film ever considered anything in the comics. I read them, and honestly I think they sucked, and their particular explanation of where the Fallen was, how he seduced Megatron, and how he ended up crashed on the Nemesis are all very weak ideas, and not really supported by things in the movie directly anyway. In fact, because I was using them to support what wasn't shown in the film, I think it made me dislike the movie even more because they presented ideas I didn't like, making me predisposed to dislike the Fallen.

    So....that said...I sat down with ROTF (and a remote with a convenient fast forward button) and decided to really break down the Fallen, his story, and his ties to the modern Decepticons using only what we are told and shown in the film, which is the only true movie canon for me. I wanted to completely rethink the situation from scratch using the movie only.

    I'm beginning to think it's a possibility the Fallen spawned ALL OF the Decepticons from the crashed Nemesis, and the Nemesis has been the base this whole time! (The movie does seem to treat them as a separate race in alot of ways.)

    BUT, I'll get to that. Let's look at what the movie tells us about The Fallen.

    1. The Fallen was one of Cybertron's original leaders, the 7 Primes. They were on Earth to make a Sun Harvester, with other Cybertronians to build it, when they discover life. (Shown in opening scene)

    2. He decides to break the One Rule of Life and activate the Harvester anyway, steals the Matrix of Leadership, starts a revolt and decides to take all of the Energon for his own. (note the matrix is taken from the Primes on Earth, but before the battle starts.) It looks like alot of the Cybertronians recognized him as leader once he had the Matrix and sided with him.

    3. The other Primes fight back, stab the Fallen with two spears, and take the Matrix back. They sacrifice themselves in order to hide it from the Fallen at all costs. The Fallen despises Earth because it was his place of failure, and the humans were what started the conflict to begin with, and wants revenge on the whole place, as well as the Energon from our sun in the process, to "preserve his race" and build his army, as well as for personal power.

    4. We know that the Fallen has sent out Seekers to find the Matrix. What is unclear is whether the Seekers were left behind from the original soldiers, or sent back at a later date. Jetfire specifically says "He left me here to rust". This could mean that either he literally left him behind to go elsewhere, or was sent on a mission to stay there indefinitely. There was a huge battle going on around the Harvester, but the final results are unclear, other than the fate of the Matrix and the Primes.

    5. The Fallen survived the final battle for the Matrix, because the Primes were hiding the Matrix from him in fear of him regaining it, and at some point he ordered the Seekers to find the Matrix, he mentored Megatron, and is on the Nemesis, spawning an army with thousands of hatchlings. He hasn't been on Earth for millennia. (thousands of years) He left Earth, left Jetfire there to rust, and is on a crashed ship.

    6. The Fallen appears to be on some sort of life support. The other theory is that he is "feeding" all the hatchlings with his own life force. He seems to feel much better when Prime dies.

    Let's look at a few things.

    The Fallen has knowledge of how to spawn hatchlings. The Nemesis is the Decepticon base. The Nemesis has crashed on some remote planet, and it looks like it's been there for a long time. Megatron calls it home. Megatron seems to nearly worship the Fallen.

    The Decepticons look like a different race, with an exoskeleton-insect like appearance. They all have red eyes. They are the mortal enemies of the Autobots. They speak Cybertronian, have knowledge of what ancient Cybertronian at least looks like, knows the Fallen and his plan, and behaves very differently than Autobots. The reserve troops that don't scan any Earth modes look like Megatron.

    So. If you look at all of these things....I'm starting to think that the Fallen crashed his ship after leaving Earth, or ran out of fuel, and has used it as his base of operations since. He started to spawn the Decepticons we know today to attack Cybertron and steal the All Spark, and the original crew was sent to Earth as Seekers. Since he was working with limited Energon reserves, it took a loooong time. Maybe he was offline for awhile after the crash.

    I don't know...this just seems to make a lot of sense to me in so many ways. As direct creations of the Fallen, it explains why they look that way. It explains why they are obsessed with hatchlings and preserving "their race", while Prime wants to use Energon to restore Cybertron instead. It explains him being the first Decepticon. It explains clone bodies. It explains Wheelie recognizing ancient Cybertronian and knowing of the Seekers. It explains the red eyes and monstrous teeth. It explains why Megatron seems to almost worship the Fallen. It explains why the Cons seem to use hatchlings and the Autobots don't. It explains why the Autobots have no knowledge of The Fallen. It explains where the Decepticons came from on Cybertron to start the Civil War. It explains why it doesn't appear to be common knowledge one can switch factions, but they are all still Cybertronians, as the Fallen was from Cybertron, just called Decepticons instead of the default "Autobots". It explains why the Decepticons seem to know what is going on and the Autobots are clueless.

    I don't see many reasons in the films that contradict this at all...and it actually kind of makes ROTF a little better in my mind now that I've put it all together from what's in the movie.

    It sure as heck seems better than the Fallen talking to Megatron through a Magic Triangle, saying "Hey...pssst, dude, listen. You should TOTALLY be evil. No, seriously, it's awesome. Just go with it." then having the Magic Triangle on the way to Earth only to crash, and somehow end up from being a talking Magic Triangle to a convalescent robot in a chair. (thanks comics)


    I tried to base this all from fact established on screen and not wild speculation or the comics.

    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. RedWolf

    RedWolf Well-Known Member

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    Just one thing. Even the Deceepticons don't read Cybertronian Language of the Primes. Both can read the modern version but the ancient writing is like Latin a dead language.

    In the first movie Optimus called Megatron brother not that he had the same relationdship like Skids and Mudflap but because he and Megatron were once close till he betrayed Prime and went for the Allspark himself.

    Plus the Fallen wouldn't be hiding if he won that war in the first place. Something tells me the Fallen's forces were defeated due to the fact they don't posses the Allspark.

    Its a similar setup to Beast Wars and Animated. The leaders and ancestors kept mum about their tragic past. Optimus Prime did say for a time they lived in harmony, a period of peace.

    Thing is when Megatron organized the Decepticons on Cybertron splitting off from the Autobots what the Autobots did not consider is that this is an ancient conspiracy with the Fallen as the man behind the man. They all thought Megatron was the leader of all Decepticons.
     
  3. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    But the Fallen can, and that's why he's searching for the symbols.

    They are both Cybertronian.



    They fled Earth to return to Cybertron on the Nemesis because without the Harvester, they had no Energon, and crashed on the return.

    Then the Decepticons showed up.

    Megatron was taking orders directly from the Fallen either way, and was even calling the Fallen "master". This either took place from the Nemesis as we see in ROTF, or from Cybertron, and the ship crashed while following Megatron after he took off after the All Spark. Either of those explanations are better than him being stuck in between dimensions and haunting Megatron through a Sarcophagus, only to wind up somehow in a chair on another planet.

    I'm still kind of liking where this theory is heading. At any rate, I'd think the Fallen made it back to Cybertron and has been there in hiding with the Cons and simply crashed following Megatron to Earth. It's the only other thing that makes sense. I refuse to accept Talking Magic Triangle. I am not weak like Megatron. I will not fall before Talking Magic Triangle.

    Besides, my theory is a way too convenient way to explain the differing appearances between 'Bot and 'Con.
     
  4. RedWolf

    RedWolf Well-Known Member

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    You are forgetting one thing. Optimus Prime said Megatron betrayed them. Optimus showed mourning at the loss of Megatron as he lost an old friend.

    Jetfire said their distant ancestors fought on Earth. Note Jetfire explicitly said he comes from a long line of Seekers looking for the Matrix. Meaning personally he wasn't there and even born during that event. I would classify Jetfire and his fellow Seekers as the old Decepticons while those under Megatron the new Decepticons much like the Predacons who seek the glory of the old.

    The current generation of Autobots had their history hidden. Written only on the Allspark. Also note Jetfire used to fight Autobots or at least their predecessors. "I'll show you how we bring pain in my day". Jetfire doesn't know who Optimus Prime or Megatron is so whatever older Autobot faction he was fighting it was before both leaders came to be.
     
  5. SentinelPrime

    SentinelPrime I NEEDED THAT!

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    My idea doesn't change that at all. Megatron still betrayed them. Prime was saddened because of the situation of a fellow Cybertronian being tainted with evil and having to die because of this battle.

    Nope. He says his ancestors have been there a long time, and that he hated working for the Fallen.

    Not necessarily. He's ancient, and has knowledge no one else does. If not left behind, then where was he dispatched from?


    I thought that was a reference to the original Matrix battle. If not, then Jetfire was dispatched to Earth from Cybertron, or from the Nemesis site and told of the factions by the Fallen. But Jetfire appears to be stuck on Earth and says the Fallen left him there to rust.


    Again, this is all just me trying to explain the situation from just what's in the movie since I dislike the comic explanation so much.
     
  6. RedWolf

    RedWolf Well-Known Member

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    He's old but not that old.

    "I got issues of my own it started with my mother. My ancestors have been here for centuries. My Father he was the wheel, the first wheel. Do you know what he transformed into? Nothing! But he did so with honor, dignity!"

    "This planet was visited by our race before. By our earliest ancestors millennium ago. They were on an exploratory mission to harvest energon, the life blood of our race. Without it we would all perish oxidize and rust like my wretched self. Do you have any idea how it is to slowly fall apart and die!"


    Then Jetfire went story telling.


    "Somewhere in this dessert our ancestors built a great machine. It harvests energon by destroying suns."

    "Yes, you see in the beginning there were Seven Primes our original leaders and they set out into the universe seeking distant suns to harvest. The Primes set out with one rule, Never desroy a planet with life. Until one of them tried to defy this rule. And his name forever more was the Fallen."

    "He despised the Human race and he wanted to kill you all by turning on that machine. The only way to activate it is with a legendary key called the Matrix of Leadership. A great battle took place over the possession of the Matrix. The Fallen was stronger than his brothers till they had no choice but to steal and hide it from him. In the ultimate sacrifice they made a tomb made of their very own bodies, a tomb we cannot find."

    "Somewhere in this dessert that deadly machine remains. The Fallen knows where it is and if finds the Tomb of the Primes your world will be no more"


    As you can see what Jetfire said their ancestors meaning the ancestors of the Autobots and Decepticons fought on Earth. His direct ancestors, even his father, were given the job by the Fallen to look for the Matrix. Its like a family job but given he was removed from the war a long time he realized being a Decepticon isn't worth it.
     
  7. Alienbot

    Alienbot Well-Known Member

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    SentinelPrime, would you be willing to add in the notion that Megatron and the more intelligent Decepticons infiltrated the Autobot empire for years, gaining Optimus's trust, before betraying them?
     

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