- yet you are the one making judgements by this forum, a Transformers forum, while I was going by a general forum, not a TF specific one, just one with a few TF fans.

 

Those citroen videos are well made, but the robot design is terrible. It's even more skeletal than the movie designs. The only thing the citroen videos have going for them are solid body panels, but it looks ridiculous swinging around those whole sections of a car on arms and legs that look to be no thicker than human limbs. And yet every single video is stuffed with comments about how it's better than the movie.

 

Not looking for a fight mate, but I'd say they changed a lot more than you seem to think. Wolverine's well over a foot too tall. They also totally massacred Rogue (way too young, nothing to do with the Brotherhood Of Evil Mutants), ruined Sabertooth completely, and they didn't paint Toad as being anywhere near enough of an odious little bastard. And that's just the first one. The second movie was a total screw-up of God Loves, Man Kills, and the third one was just a big fat mess in pretty much every way (Jugggernaut was pathetic, for a start. Even Vinny Jones being cool couldn't save that). I pretty much loathed all 3 movies.
Now. Bearing in mind that I am far more of a TF fan than an X-Men one, how come I like the direction the movie has taken so much?
Because I honestly do feel that it's time for something new. The old designs, although iconic, are extremely dated in a lot of ways; they're also largely unworkable for the big screen. To be blunt... they just don't look real enough. I'm not talking about realistic, I mean real. As much as I love G1, the designs are blocky as hell; articulating a 3D G1 model is a nightmare; to get a G1 Prime to be able to see his feet requires dislocating his head. The new design simply has to look down. He can't fold his arms. He can't kneel properly. There's a shot in the trailer where Prime kneels to talk to Sam. The original design would have to half-transform to do anything like that.
They still transform. They still come from Cybertron. They're still a race of sentient alien machines. They're still Autobots led by Optimus Prime, and Decepticons led by Megatron.
They're still Transformers.

They explained Adama's dislike of modern tech extremely well in the pilot for the series.

 

Yeah, but that's something that could be easily fixed, even it requires cheating.

Somewhere in between the alternators aesthetic and movie aesthetic probably would have worked. Something like the movie aesthetic but with solid panes would have worked a lot better. Personally I love the real Gundam looking video I posted earlier. In my eyes, it's perfect, though I do appreciate the "Overcomplicated" Designs translate into "Complicated" toys, a first for Hasbro since Transmetals.

 

But see, I'm a pretty big X-men fan too, not as big as you I'm sure, I've mostly only read the first few years of the Claremont era stuff(around 76 to 82 I think) as well as seen the movies 90s cartoon recent comics etc. But that's mostly just because that era was the one that most appealed to me, and there are so many other comics to read with my tiny attention span, it's not that I wouldn't if i did have the patience.

But well, a lot of hardcore X-men fans DID like the movies. Even if they "SCREWED UP" the stories, at least they were somewhat based on them to begin with. This movie isn't really based on anything from the TF Comics, maybe a little More Than Meets the Eye because of the Hoover Damn, but not really.

ALL of the X-men are recognisable to who the are, which is the issue here. I don't think there's a single comic book movie that's been successful but had more than one or two characters that aren't very much so recognisable to the original.

Let's look at the big comic book/superhero movies - X-men, Daredevil, Spider-man, Hellboy, Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Superman Returns, Batman begins.

ALL Of those had a cast of characters that, even though undergoing heavy changes in some cases, very closely resembled the original in the sense that you could look at even the Green Goblin and say "Oh that must be the Green Goblin!" When pics of Bumblebee came out, people thought he might be Hot Shot or Sunstreaker. One pic of Bumblebee even looked kind of Bludgeon-esque. Some people even speculated Prime's Truck mode must belong to Motormaster, since a long nose flamer was kinda out of character for the bold, well-spoken hero that is Optimus Prime.
The one that probably strayed the most was Batman begins - but all things considered, it was understandable. And if you think about it, we already got "Batman" movies before, unlike with TFs, so they can be excused a lot more for making things different.

I think maybe the BEST comic book movie to compare this to though, is Iron Man. He's basically a robot, visually. And they STILL used not only his current modern armour which is very Gundam-like(as are many revised versions of G1 Transformers), but the original big, clunky silver armour! They made some tweaks to make it awesome, and it worked. But honestly, it STILL looks more ridiculous, visually, than the Gundam like bot in the video I posted.

But still, most people don't care that much, and those are exactly the kind of changes they should be making to the bots, as far as I'm concerned. To achieve these you'd have big clunky G1 Transformations for the most part, then the "Movie Aesthetic" transformation kicks in to clean them up somewhat, in place of morphing. Done together, it could look flawless. I've noticed some of the Movie TF Toys are doing something similiar, big clunky transformations with some little sliding bits to make them more accurate since they obviously can't recreate the whole process.

 

I kind of agree with Scraggin. I too would like to know exactly WHAT people here really like better about these movie designs than more traditional Transformers designs. I mean I see alot of people on this message board give a quick broad (almost robotic sounding reply) generalizing statement and say they think the movie designs are genious or simply that they like them better, in some way that almost seems like a broad propaganda statement with out ever elaborating to why or what they themselves, thinking only for themselves, really like about the movie designs. And I myself am very curious to why they THEMSELVES (NOT any assumption on what the "general public" might have to think) think they are so much better than any other design they have seen before in Transformers.

Seriously, if ILM and all their expert glory with their high budget super CGI computers made some video's like the Citroen Transformer, don't you think more traditional designs would look 200 times better than that one by Smith? I mean if a fan can do that, what do you think actual big budget proffesionals could do with a design like that? And if they did, would you honestly say that you would have been upset with that?

And then what exactly did you yourselves like about Transformers in the first place to get you involved on message boards?

You may not like Sraggin and you don't have to, but I think he has a legit point and I would like to know the answers to these questions as well.

And the whole "I'm a better fan than you" kind of stuff just makes people using it look really immature. Especially when you start to throw hissy fits when someone questions what you actually like in the brand beyond the name or vice versa. To me Transformers is so much more than a name. It's what's in the content that makes it transformers or not.... not a name that a savy capitalistic, opurtunistic bussiness exect gave it to cash in on that names populartity.

But to even just get into that whole debacle degenerates the discussion... let alone, the fandom itself.

 

Also, I'd like to add that the arguements made about "Wolverine was a foot too tall" and "Spiderman was given organic webs" and stuf like that are just a fraction of the scale of the kind of changes that were done to our robots. The kind of changes to Spiderman and Wolverine would NEVER even be noticable to a normal audience member who only had a minute amout of exposier to the brand previously. As a matter of fact for exameple, I've never been a Spiderman fan but I knew about him to know that, well... he's a spider-man and shoots webs from his wrists. I never knew HOW he shot webs from his wrists, just that he did. And with the Spiderman movie, that did not disapoint and I never knew the difference.

Same with Wolverine, how many normal people are supposed to know exactly how tall Wolverine is supposed to be. C'mon folks! That is like complaining that you just won $1,000,000 dollars when you wanted to win 1,000,001 ! With Transformers the changes are so much more obvious than that. Matter of fact it changes everything about the characters and who they are. The average Joe audience that would be attracted to a movie about Transformers will have known how Optimus Prime and maybe Megatron looks, so they could get distracted or even turned off by the new look. At least if it's anything like I was with X-men the first time I saw it, they will. Seriously, comparing something as minor as an inch or foot in height or the content of webshooters to a total overall character design(s) is comparing more than just apples to oranges, it's comparing Apples to Watemelons and Coconuts!

 

There are far greater changes to the X-Men mythos in the movies than Wolverine being too tall, Like Storm being an X-Man before Iceman, and the complete removal of any kind of rivalry between Sabretooth and Wolverine.

 

I say it's more because this is the first time in any attempt or incarnation that a movie about shape changing "robots" (if you want to call these designs robots - to me they look more organic) has ever been tried in a live action enviornment.... let alone it's the first Transformers movie at all attempted in the last 20 years and only the second one EVER.

So if the designs had been more traditional and well executed, it would have happened just the same. Heck, no matter what direction a movie based on a property goes, you will ALWAYS get new fans and new people joining the message boards simply for the number of people a TV commercial reaches. A movie or Prime Time TV Spot reaches so much more volume of people and potential consumers than a animated cartoon on at 6AM in the morning ever would.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sabertooth and Wolverine fight in the first movie? That was good enough for this casual fan. And both still had their recognizable scruffy appearence with their trademark everyday cloths. (Wolverine's wife beater shirt look for example). They both had the furry look.

My bottom line point is that the average guy who is just semi-interested in an X-men movie (your casual fan, I guess) would never know the difference because he isn't a die hard fan. But the uniforms would have probably thrown him for a loop. Same with the TF designs because that changes everything about the characters and it's so much in your face that you have to get over it before you can really start to get enthrawled into the story.

Disclaimer: I am speaking only from my personal experiences with other franchise properties as I am really not a fan of anything outside of Transformers although I do enjoy a good story from them from time to time. (I caught a couple episodes of the '90s X-men show and the Spiderman cartoon but that was my only real exposure to the franchises.)

 

As far as I see it, only the "clothes" have been changed with the TRANSFORMERS in the movie.
Two warring factions of robots have come to Earth covertly to search for 'something' (a something rather more significant than the unimaginative "energy" of previous series') and draw various human parties into their war in the process.
Sounds like the concept is intact to me.

Characters? Nobody knows do they? I trust the film to give the robots as much characterisation as a 2-hour movie intended for consumption by the general public as is possible. Certainly as much as the the G1 cartoon pilot gave us (no, various accents do not constitute 'characterisation'!)

Why do I like the designs? Well, rather offensive references to "broad propaganda statements" and "robotic sounding replies" aside (the implication being that I've blindly swallowed the line being fed to me), I don't like them "better" than previous TF incarnations.
The G1 toys had to be redesigned to work in an animated context (sometimes significantly), so I see the movie revamps as the next step in that process of moving from a two-dimensional medium to a three-dimensional one.

I also have my Masterpiece OPTIMUS PRIME in front of me as I type and no matter how hard I try, I can't place him into any action poses that would be even remotely suitable for a high-intensity action film.
If I open his chest, I see every single part of his design is geared towards the transformation alone: There isn't an ounce of space for any 'technology' within him (except the head!!) that would grant him 'life'. Where are the motors with enough torque to drive those arms up and down? Not in the shoulders for sure. That's why I see the skeletal frame of the Movie designs with no armour to bind at the joints as being an excellent solution.

I also find myself able to accept other people's interpretations. I won't insist that only my perceptions must be right and therefore strictly adhered to, with any deviation from them automatically dismissed as "wrong" or "rubbish". If I lived my life so blinkered it would be rife with disappointments at every turn.

And ultimately, I find them nice to look at. These are not the Transformers I'd put in a movie, but I realised very early on that the odds of that happening were minute. No, these are better than I'd hoped precisely because the designers didn't allow themselves to be constrained by the past and have gone for something original & extraordinary.
Don't agree? Wonderful, because that's exactly the same diversity at work that allows me to love them so much, but don't dare question my intgrity in arriving at my decision.
What was this thread about again?

 

I like these on the EXACT same level as any traditional Transformers design over the past 20 something years. No more and no less  

See unlike some people I'm not so incredibly rigid and don't believe in 1 true Transformers look. Beast Wars and Beast Machines showed that Transformers can STILL be even if they don't follow tradition.

Besides, this is live action not animated so it stands to reason what worked in animated form didn't work in LA form. See ILM must've had a reason to design 'em the way they did. So instead of being arrogant enough to think I know better. I choose to simply give their way a chance. And honestly from the trailers and TV spots I say they hit it spot on.

FYI many detractors use the same generalizing statements too...Like Bayformers, Insectoids or Bionacles. Or calling Starscream Apescream or Megatron Megaturd. Which is just as if not more annoying. Besides opinions are hardly original and there's really only so many ways to say "I like it" so you're bound to be copying someone sometime.

 

That despite the alien aesthetic, this movie is still drawing in new fans from outside the current fandom.

Of course this was, like any movie thread regarding the designs, going to become like trying to read words on the side of a merry-go-round...

 

Well, it is!
My dad is house-bound after having a stroke. At 63, his idea of sci-fi begins and ends with DAN DARE, but when I downloaded the teaser to my PS3 and he saw it, ol' Pop said he'd very much like to go and see the film. (Hope they have wheelchair access at my local fleapit!)

My sci-fi loving/transformer dismissing sister has also been hooked by the main trailer. She often derides the cartoon when I'm watching it (in a good natured but sincere way!) and is planning to inform similarly inclined people on a STAR WARS forum she's a member of.

 

My wife, who normally loathes my buying and looking up of Transformers, took my Barricade from me last night and fiddled with it, "This is the bad guy right?", I told her yeah and some other stuff and then she said "least they're making the bad guys finally look more evil."

And a few people at work who couldn't give a crap less are talking to me asking questions about some of the stuff(like what the relations are between characters and other off the wall ones). So it is bringing in a new fold of people, as for alienating current fans, I just look at it like a new series, new forms/mythos.designs that always happen with a new series.

But like usual I lose my point so well, I'll be quiet before I go off on a tangent.

 

It's been a while since I saw the first X-Men movie, so my outrage may be ill conceived, but from what I recall, Wolverine and Sabretooth's whole fight consisted of Sabretooth throwing Wolverine into a tree before Storm and Cyclops showed up and chased him off.

But you said it yourself. You aren't a die-hard X-Men fan. And not being a die-hard fan, you can accept changes better because the series isn't as close to your heart as another.

 

My problem with G1 designs isn't necessarily with the G1 designs themselves, but what the general perception of the Transformers is. It is not news that most people out there do not take Transformers seriously. MOST people think of TF as a thing played with by kids and collected by nerds and geeks everywhere. Ask ANYONE currently going to school, and they will tell you it is quite embarrassing to let everyone know that you love Transformers. I teach classes at a local college, and I still get eyes that roll whenever I say that I love Transformers. It is not news that todays kids aren't exactly taking to G1 Transformers like it is a hot item. The classics sell more than any other continuity PRIMARILY because of the older generation buying them, or their kids. But, as a WHOLE, kids generally don't like them.

TF is no better than the way the general public views Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I really don't care how great you make the graphics of TMNT, it will NEVER be a huge success because the general public thinks of it as a kids toy item and collected by nerds and geeks. And, it really doesn't matter what they do to TMNT. Future movies will NEVER be successful unless they take steps to change the general perception of that franchise.

So, while I do LOVE G1, I think it will NEVER be successful as a big budget movie for the same reason. It can NEVER be successful unless you change the general perception of people towards the franchise. I think the people looking to finance this movie knows this too. In the beginning they said they were making a G1 movie remember that? Then after further research and consideration they changed their minds. For anyone financing the movie, it would be a STUPID move to keep it the way it is and put that much money into it, knowing damn well it will fail with the way most people think of the TF.

Don't fool yourself into thinking the whole world clamors for the Transformers. If you think that, you are highly delusional. All that said, I hope someone someday produces a lower budget CGI Transformers movie true to G1 for the fans. But, as something to sway the general public, G1 will never work.

 

^
This is a really fantastic post.

 

Off subject... kinda.

I absolutely adore David Lynch's Dune movie yet can't stand the Dune books (can never get into them... I readily got through Tolkien trilogy). I've heard that the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series Dune is more accurate and I really enjoyed it alot... but it doesn't compare to David Lynch's Dune IMO.

What I'm getting at is: maybe, sometimes adaptations do work out. They're a filter for the other people who wouldn't have enjoyed the original subject in the first place.

(And, no, I'm not a fantasy exclusive reader, I enjoy both sci-fi and fantasy books.)



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*ahem*


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Totally off subject, but from what I read of the new Flash Gordon, they're going the new Battlestar Galactica route and that's like missing the mark by a at least 10 miles/ aiming for the barn door and hitting the moon instead.

Flash Gordon = hokey goodness + Queen soundtrack.