My final words about the TF films

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by SC0RP0N0K, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    I know this topic has been covered quite extensively but I've never heard anyone nail the right way to describe why I disliked the live action TF movies. I will admit that I was raised on G1. I never really got into BW, RID, Energon, Animated, ect...although it had nothing to do with how the writing was or what kind of animation was used, they just all had elements that I didn't care for. That being said I didn't want anyone to disregard this as another "oh they raped my childhood post" or a "stuck in the '80's post". My main reasons for this post is to, one see if the people who disliked the movies agree with my reason, and two to see if the people who loved the movie can understand where some of us "haters" are coming from. I do not intend to change anyone's mind either, if you like the movie that's cool. I know for a few people this post will be considered TL:D R, but for those who do read it I would love some input.

    First, I really didn't have a problem with the cast, I have seen some of the actors in other movies where they did an amazing job. I did think the humans were overused though. In most if not all TF incarnations the humans to a backseat to the robots but in the movies it seemed the other way around.

    Second, I will admit I do not like Michael Bay at all. I think that he feels action films are all about special effects and explosions and the story doesn't have to matter. I also feel that he cares nothing for source material as evidenced by his depiction of Pearl Harbor and all the inaccuracies in that movie. This actually is the main problem I have with these movies. I'm not talking about changing Prime to a different truck or painting flames on him, or changing Bumblebee from a VW to a Camaro, although their robot modes were a major flaw in my opinion.

    My main problem is update or not, The Transformers is a classic and therefor anyone who covers it needs to have a working knowledge of what's come before. In every TF incarnation (that I've seen anyway) the characters all acted a certain way based on their portrayals established in the G1 continuity toyline. Some designs changed, some names changed, ect.. but for the most part Prime and the Autobots valued all life, Starscream was a traitor and a schemer, Bumblebee was a sidekick, the Autobots weren't soldiers they were forced into a war they never intended on fighting, and so on. The movies couldn't seem to get any deeper into the source material other than using most of the original names, faction names, and that there were transforming robots that fight.

    In closing I'll give an example of what I felt the movies did by using another well known classic:

    Imagine Joel Schumacher decided to "update" The Godfather. The script now calls for Vito Corleone to be senile and fart often. Michael Corleone will be a more physically imposing character like Brock Lesner only still Italian. He won't be as cold and calculating like before, now he will prefer to take parts in all the hits and he goes into every situation with guns blazing. In the restaurant scene he's not nervous about his first "hit", instead he cracks the cops neck and pokes the rival mob boss's eyes out with breadsticks since they are eating at Olive Garden (great product placement) and they have that "endless breadsticks" offer. Oh, and since the cop is Irish let's dress him up like a leprechaun and make him drunk all the time off Guinness (another great product placement). Why do this if he's a cop? Why should he dress like a leprechaun if he should just wear a police uniform? Fuck you that's why...we NEED people to understand that he's Irish. We will have Fredo be mentally challenged go around constantly dry humping everything and everyone because that's what retarded people do right? And in the end, we find out that Michael sells his own family out so that he can run it and the closing scene will be Michael killing his father while violently raping his own mother while Fredo cries while he dry humps the corpse of Sonny (who just happens to show up although he's never in the movie before but it will be cool cause he looks like James Caan) and the whole time Michael is eating Spaghetti O's (awesome product placement) since he's Italian and that's obviously all they eat in Italy. People can't complain since all the basics are there, I mean it's about the mob and all the names are right, hell they are even going to get Al Pacino to do the voice of Michael Corleone.

    While this is obviously an extreme example I'm using it still fits. No matter what the source material is, even if it was a '80's cartoon that was meant to sell toys, you have to stay true to it or else you have just written a brand new creation and simply swiped names and a basic plot from a already well known and beloved source simply to bank on it's already established customer base and nostalgia factor.
     
  2. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    Transformers has ignored that for 20 years.

    Why should they stop doing that now?
     
  3. SharkyMcShark

    SharkyMcShark Hi. I'm better than you

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    Your comparison with the Godfather falls down when it is considered that Transformers inherently is something that has many different continuities, whereas the Godfather has one (arguably two with the advent of the games, but I doubt any Godfather buffs would count that).

    Part and parcel of the Transformers experience is that there are many different continuities, and while they all share the same common theme there are many differences between the two as well (a prime example being Optimus Prime being a young and initially insecure leader in Animated as opposed to his incarnation in G1, if you'll excuse the bad pun there). Just as the RiD cartoon, Animated cartoon, A/E/C cartoon, and Shattered Glass are not intended to be direct translations of G1, neither is the movie.

    Even with that said the Movie line is a lot closer to it's G1 roots than most other things we've had recently, and I fail to see what the whining is about - it generally devolves into an argument about the colours that Soundwave is, or a minute personality quirk that Starscream portrayed, or whether Optimus Prime is sick of dealing with Decepticons for the last several thousand years, or whether Bumblebee is too good a fighter.
     
  4. Bulkhide

    Bulkhide Bulkhead + Ironhide

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    I couldn't have said it better. Good Job.
     
  5. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    I guess you missed what I said about how every continuity as far as the ones I've seen haven't done that. Sure things change, but the essence of the characters have all been based around what was established in G1 toy bios. For instance Prime in Beast Wars has the same code of honor and belief that all life is precious that G1 Prime does even though they look completely different. I'm not saying every character always stays true, but for the most part if you gave me only some sample dialog and a little backstory, I could tell you who that character was or who they were modeled after.
     
  6. shroobmaster

    shroobmaster Well-Known Member

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    Movie Optimus agrees with that, except that movie decepticons ain't your usual 80's cheesy villains, they'll kill, attack, mangle without questioning, you can't do business with 'em, the only way to stop 'em is death, leaving one of 'em alive is risky enough,
     
  7. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with you that the comparison I mentioned does not have the other continuities, it's still valid in that even during different continuities you still need to go deeper than face value when dealing with established characters. Take Star Trek for example, it has many incarnation and continuities but if you have a starfleet captain mass murdering people, unless it's the Mirror, Mirror universe, then it's not truly Star Trek anymore. I would give more examples of characters acting out of place in Star Trek but I'm not a fan so I don't know too much about how they act.

    And as I said before, I realize that changes are going to be made and I'm beyond Soundwave's alt form, or color, or even voice. I wouldn't care if you made Prime a younger, inexpeirenced leader. But when he hunts down a Decepticon that is grossly outnumbered and shoots him in the face I have a problem with that since it's so out of character in ANY incarnation or continuity.

    Also, please know that I'm not whining about the movie. As I stated before I am simply trying to explain why I disliked it and to see if anyone else can relate or if maybe people who loved the movie could at least understand where I'm coming from. I do find it odd that when someone simply states a different opinion they are automatically labeled as a "whiner".

    Um, how about you put them in stasis? Honestly it says in the movie that the Decepticons have been in hiding. It never mentions or shows an attack by the Decepticons. All it shows is an Autobot death squad totally outnumbering and hunting down a Decepticon who wasn't doing shit to them anymore. Optimus embodies the ideal of freedom and justice. Seriously it would be like Captain America turning into The Punisher.
     
  8. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    This needed its own thread because..?
     
  9. Nightwing24

    Nightwing24 00 Agent

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    I recall them doing that with megatron in the first movie and look how that turned out... also sure Demolisher and Sideways weren't doing anything beforehand but what do u think would happen when Megatron came back and told his troops to mobolize? Roll out and kill humans. NEST was just getting to them before they killed lots of people.
     
  10. Master Fwiffo

    Master Fwiffo Bonecrusher Hates You

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    All Star Trek captains have different personalities and Standards. Kirk would break the Prime Directive on a whim, and Picard would rather die first.

    Yes, let's ignore the evil Decepticons who are, I dunno, plotting to ressurect their leader and eventually blow up the Sun.

    Seriously, according to all extra-movie material, the Cons have been attacking and killing people left and right for the past two years. Since when is trying to stop them before they do more of it a bad thing? Even ignoring that, in the film itsef, by the time Prime is brought in, Demolishor had killed around 1000 people, and at least three times went out of his way to do so. You might have a point with Sideways, but that can easily be explained by 'Sideswipe is a dick'.

    Seriously. The Cons aren't a bunch of misunderstood innocents. They're a race of mass murderers and psychopaths.

    And speaking of stasis, where exactly would you put a brute like Demolishor? As both films show, humans don't exactly have a good track record of keeping them in Stasis. What if Demolishors buddys show up and break him out? Yeah. Not smart. And then Prime has another 1000 dead humans on his shoulders. At that point, I'd be blowing holes in Con faces too. Wouldn't you?
     
  11. MegaHavok

    MegaHavok Well-Known Member

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    We don't know if their is "stasis in the movie verse. We didn't get "Stasis lock" till beast wars and lets face it that was just a cheesy way for Bob and Larry to amp up the action and say "no look it's ok their only sleeping."

    Transformers is supposed to be a story about endless war. In order to be even slightly serious you have to have causalities on both sides. Even in the first movie almost every conflict between bots and cons ended in death for somebody. Prime and his team located an enemy terrorist hiding in a city an investigated. It was demolishor that attacked killing a handful of soldiers. He then went on a rampage running people over on the freeway. How many people do you think he killed destroying that bridge. Prime disabled him to save lives. He then put the badly damaged con out of his misery. How is that not justice??

    It is funny you mention Captain America. Nowhere in history has the fight for freedom and justice not required countless deaths and sacrifices. Thats what made the revamp of Ultimate Captain America so cool. The Guy fought in WW2 of course there is blood on his hands. It's nice to see Prime get that treatment as the do have very similar personal motivations.

    If you need a more G1 feel to support the actions I point you to the 86 movie. Primes line of "No matter the cost" shows that even then PRime knew when it was time to get serious. With his city full of friends in danger he ran over and gunned downed cons without thinking twice. I have my own list of issues with this movie but Primes character is not on their at all
     
  12. SharkyMcShark

    SharkyMcShark Hi. I'm better than you

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    You know, all you people going on about an Autobot death squad executing Decepticons, Prime did ask him to stop before he started damaging him.
     
  13. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    Ok, would you accept a Star Trek captain that was a serial rapist? What I'm saying is there is a standard that has been laid down that the movies totally screwed up in my opinion. *EDIT* This was only meant to show that it is totally against everything they had ever stated in any Star Trek series that a captain should be like. It was never intended to compare Prime to a rapist or anything so stupid.


    As for the Decepticons. We all thought Megatron was dead, the Autobots thought the big bad was dead and all they would have to do it round up the rest of his followers and stop the ones who tried to take his place. Kinda like when Hitler was killed if we went around and murdered everyone who ever wore a Nazi uniform. I find it amazing that former Decepticons Jetfire and Wheelie were given the chance to switch sides but everyone else gets executed on spot.

    You said according to the extra-movie material the Decepticons killed tons of people. Were was that mentioned IN THE FILM? The thing about a movie is you shouldn't have to do extra homework in order to figure things out. If you are required to then you should probably mention it in the trailer. Something along the lines of if you don't buy this prequel comic you won't have a fucking clue what's going on. To people like myself who never read the "extra-movie material" it looks like the Autobots just got bored and went hunting. As for Demolisher killing humans before Prime gets called in is kinda funny considering all I saw was him sitting there in alt mode not doing shit till the Autobots started chasing and shooting at him. So to like 95% of the people in the audience that never read the "extra-movie material" the Autobots look responsible in the deaths of the people Demolisher killed while trying to escape.

    As far as the human's track record of keeping Decepticons in stasis, well they've only had Megatron and that was only with what humans had to work with and it worked for what a hundred years? Surely with Autobot tech and/or know how they could set up a more secure stasis. Maybe they could do the spark-core stasis like they've done in some of the comics to compensate for their size? While I'm nowhere naive enough to believe that nobody deserves to die, I do think it should never be a first resort. I don't know, maybe the Prime I remember taught me better than to do that.

    Finally, this post was needed because I felt like the problems I had with the movies hadn't been fully explained and I wanted to see how others thought.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
  14. Sso02V

    Sso02V Injector Has a Posse

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    They only kept Megatron hidden for that long because nobody was looking for him. As soon as the Decepticons showed up and started searching, they found him within a couple of days.
     
  15. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Being asked "Pull over!" is not being "killed on the spot." Demolishor was given a chance. He decided to squish people instead, so he got squished. Imagine if he'd been a human fugitive. The cops are close to finding him, so he runs. The cops ask him to stop, and instead he runs over several dozen pedestrians, pulls out a couple of machine guns, and bombs a few buildings while he's at it. The cops are going to kill him to protect the public. He's not innocent. He wasn't minding his own business. What was he even doing on Earth in the first place anyway?

    If G1 Prime is Captain America, then RoTF Prime is Marvel Ultimate universe Captain America, not The Punisher. Ultimate Captain A. is the best Cappy ever, so that's just fine with me.
     
  16. SharkyMcShark

    SharkyMcShark Hi. I'm better than you

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    That's a bloody stupid comparison. The correct comparison in the sense would be "would you accept a slightly more ruthless captain".


    Yeah he wasn't just running away though - he was tossing cars about the place and destroying stuff. I mean, I'll give you that the situation could have used a little bit more exposition, but then exposition isn't what we're whining about here. We find out later in the movie that they've been looking for the AllSpark/a means to resurrect Megatron - just because at the beginning Demolishor doesn't go "HEY LEAVE ME ALOEN IM TRYIGN TO RESURRECT MEAGTRON" when he's spotted it doesn't mean that he was jumped and killed for no reason.

    It's different now though - when Megatron crashed here his on board computer and communications were out of whack and no one knew where he was specifically. Now the Transformers know where our planet is, and indeed have called in reinforcements from space. It is not feasible in this situation to keep massive and dangerous prisoners of war in statis indefinately.
     
  17. MegaHavok

    MegaHavok Well-Known Member

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    I in no way understand the comparison between a rapist and a leader of an army killing

    Go rewatch the movie, Demolishor is the one who starts the attack after he realizes he has been surrounded and he crushes multiple troops with debris and starts swatting helicopters out of the sky. You only really point would be the very obvious execution of Sideways who had only ran away and hadnt hurt anybody. However that was done by Sideswipe which even in G1 was a pure warrior
    You didnt need to read the extras its in the movie. Yes the Autobots went looking for Demolishor, he is any enemy combatant doing something in a civilian area. They did try to capture him though or else they could have just launched missiles and killed him from far away like they did in egypt. Prime comes in as the last resort. He only goes in to play when Demolishor goes on a rampage. He gets onsite and puts him down.
    They never put Megatron or BB in complete stasis. Megatron was in stasis when the found him and BB is only ever really restrained. Look at it this way. The only Decepticon that was ever taken prisoner escaped and attacked a U.S. city killing countless people. Why would they use that strategy again? Even if they would do that wouldn't it be just as inhumane if we put human prisoners in to comas against their will? Why is that ok for transformers?
     
  18. SC0RP0N0K

    SC0RP0N0K Well-Known Member

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    It's not just Prime's character, it's Ironhide wanting to shoot a dog and Sam's parents in the first movie. It's Bumblebee being a badass killer robot that can rip Ravage's "skin" off. It's all these things and more. I have other issues with the film, but this was the main thing that bugged me.

    As for Capt. America, he was totally against killing. His first issue was just him punching Hitler, not blowing his face off. You may be too young to remember but Capt. America felt guilty about killing Baron Von Strucker who was a frikkin vampire. I look at Prime the same way, he will do what it takes to stop evil, even to the point of killing, but only if that's a last resort. I don't see why that's hard to understand.

    Again, in the movie it never says what Demolisher was up to except hiding out. As far as him being rampaging over the city and killing a bunch of people, chances are that wouldn't have happened if he wasn't being chased. And Prime killing him to put him out of his misery is rather funny since Prime was the one who put him in all that misery. That's like saying I'm going to throw my grandma down a flight of stair and then shoot her to put her out of her misery. When Prime shot him, he was no longer a threat, he could have easily been taken into custody which would be more in line with what you would expect a peacekeeper of Cybertron to do. The movie's logic is like a police officer subduing a criminal and then shooting them in the head once the criminal is on the ground.

    Again, with the advancement of Cybertronian technology I'm sure they could find a better way to handle the stasis issue, and with Autobot guards it would probably be a bit harder to but out. It would eventually happen since it would be needed to continue the story, but mostly it would work like oh all of the jails on Earth.

    And we do have stasis lock in the movieverse MegaHawk, Megs was in stasis for 75% of the first movie. They realized cold = stasis lock. I agree that he was frozen when humans found him, but they still kept him on ice and realized that without the constant freezing he could wake up and escape. As far as would putting prisoners in comas being humane, if you could get around the body atrophy and other problems involving the lack of movement on the human body I think it would be more humane actually. I'd much rather be knocked out while having time served than being locked up in a cramped cell constantly worried that I would be killed or beaten or raped by another prisoner. I also think it's WAY more humane than being shot in the damn face. I'll give you that Prime told Demolisher to stop, but how often does that shit work when a cop says it? Especially if a criminal knows that the cop doesn't plan to arrest him but just kill him. I'm not saying Demolisher was innocent, but he wasn't doing anything wrong at the time they started hunting him according to the movie. He did what he did to escape capture and more than likely being killed instead of just captured. And yeah Sharky, we see later that they are trying to bring Megs back, but again the Autobots didn't know that, they were just hunting down the last of the Megatron's followers.

    Anyways, I g2g to bed now. It's been fun debating this and I'm glad for the most part the discussion has been civil. What will probably really blow your mind is that I actually kinda liked the movie once I stopped thinking about it as a Transformers movie and saw it more as a blow shit up fireworks extravaganza. Although Simmons ass almost fully ruined the movie. lol
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2009
  19. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I'm pretty sure Ironhide wasn't serious, but whatever. I've said it in another thread, but as a kid, I saw Bumblebee's face on the toy, and his box art, and wondered why in the world he didn't kick more Decepticon ass on the show. IMO they fixed him in this version.
    A lot of that was due to a little thing called the Comics Code Authority that was imposed on the industry for a few decades awhile back. That comics code is the same reason Batman was suddenly against killing, even though he originally didn't much care one way or the other. And maybe you're too old to be familiar with it, but in the Ultimate universe, Captain America is terrifyingly brutal to those who earn it, and still an amazingly nice guy to everyone else. To be perfectly honest, I don't like impossibly perfect heroes. It feels too artificial. It's better to have a hero that you know has a dark side just like everyone else, but that he keeps it in check and acts with honor, only unleashing the brutality when absolutely necessary. That was the case when Cap smeared a Skrull all over the place before goading Hulk into finishing it off, and it was the case when Prime put a rampaging Demolishor out of his misery.
    It said Decepticons were coming to Earth, causing trouble, and looking for something. Demolishor was one of said Decepticons. Regardless of knowing what the Deceps were looking for, do you really think it could be good? Any reason at all for Decepticons to be invading our planet is bad news.
    Nope. Instead he would have happily helped The Fallen blow up the sun. Things would be so much better that way. Damn those horrible Autobots for causing trouble.
    After Prime asked him to stop trashing the city and killing people--something you seem to be deliberately ignoring. It's like you want this Prime to be "wrong" or something.
    If I could take Twin Twist's famous giant rolleyes emote and some how smash it together with my stolen giant rolleyes emote that pukes smaller rolleyes emotes, to make an even bigger rolleyes that vomits an army of rolleye spiders, each of rolls all eight of its eyes, it would STILL not be enough for this.
    First off, the idea that anything would be "easy" about detaining the enormous Demolishor is laughable. More than that, you can only be a peacekeeper in time of peace. That's not the case here. Prime is mopping up the remainder of a war, and trying to head it off from spreading too badly on Earth. Letting 'Cons run free would be terribly irresponsible to Prime's human hosts on Earth, and extremely naive as to the nature of the Decepticon presence on Earth.
    Even if the Autobots of this universe could pull the appropriate technology out of their asses, I'm sure all the governments of Earth would happily volunteer to house all of these live, angry Decepticons, and would be completely trusting of the Autobots to make sure that none of them escaped and killed us all. But (again)if Demolishor had pulled over like Prime asked him to, the 'Bots probably would have tried for something like you're suggesting anyway. Covering all of that would REALLY bog down the movie though.
    Only because he was stuck in a block of ice. And it took a hydroelectric dam to keep him that way. Sure worked out well, too.
     
  20. MegaHavok

    MegaHavok Well-Known Member

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    I'll give you Ironhide being overly macho and not to fond of humans in the movies. I would point to the fact that in the movieverse he is a reformed decepticon of sorts but you already expressed your lack of interest in expanded universe. BB is defending the life of somebody he honestly loves and that persons family. Hes fighting for keeps. Would it really make a difference if he just shot him instead? I mean you do realize in the old cartoons they characters were still trying to kill each other right? Hell Kup ripped off the tail of a sharkticon and beat others with it. Nobody complained when Grimlock stepped on like 10 of them. How about when arcee and springer tried to crush starscream to death transforming autobot city? Hot Rod and Kup ran over and crushed one of the insecticons heads!!!! Transformers have always been extremely violent. The creator can beend the rules because they are not "human". I see no major difference between the events in ROTF and the ones I described from the 86 movie.
    I know the story you are referring to. However whats hard for you to understand is even Captain America isn't really written that way anymore. Fictional characters, even timeless one, will be written to reflect the moods and mindsets of the creators and audience of the current age. At this point and time in society people want to see the villains be punished for their crimes. They want blood. Characters like Optimus, captain america, batman or whoever, will adapt to that mindset. It's just the way it is
    Hey I like decepticons too but your really giving them too much slack. Would it really have made that big a difference for you to hear somebody yell surrender before demolishor retaliated?


    The point was megs was found in stasis lock not put in stasis lock. Why would the u.s. government allow a cybertronian prison anywhere on the planet? It just doesn't make sense. The president didn't even really trust the autobots in the movie.
     

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