Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by Omegashark18, Aug 26, 2014.
*Tarn turns out to be Old Man Feeney*
I don't believe so.
He got jacked up, but I doubt that killed him. I wonder if the DJD thinking that they actually killed him (and in a sense they did) gives the space floating Overlord away out? Maybe his survival will have something to do with the return of the Functionalist?
My mistake, it's just his arm armour been blown off. Although I got to make a ball joint gag, so it's all good.
Which doesn't preclude these being flashbacks to actual events... or that the mental reconstruction of events and the "dramitization" might not be more or less the same.
Really, really dumb? How so? Decorative, sure. Perfunctory, certainly. But not implausible.
Except that everything in the narrative since the first mention of the DJD has reinforced the DJD's sense of being OP. I think it's a bit much, but I don't see any reason to expect it to be a red herring. I think they really may be that powerful. Overlord certainly was in his appearance in MTMTE. It's not even a stretch to afford the DJD a similar ability to stomp through the crew. I agree that I'd rather see a more innovative, heroic struggle on the parts of the good-guys, but still...
At least in the case of Megatron and Prime, it's been repeatedly established in IDW that these guys really ARE "super-special-awesome". I'm okay with that. Megatron stopping a punch from Devastator is actually pretty great. I'm tired of Combiners being OP (and absurdly oversized). Most of them aren't much stronger than Optimus by the numbers (based on how you do the G1 stats readings).
So yeah, don't blame McCarthy... blame everyone, from Budiansky right on up to Roberts.
Yeah, it was really OP the way he totally owned that disposable nameless drone monster with, I dunno... skills. How dare he be... competent??
It's just another example of the Drift backlash hyperbole. If you want to cite an appropriate example to bolster your case, you could have at least mentioned Perceptor from AHM, or Cliffjumper from his Spotlight issue, or Ironhide from his miniseries and RID, or Skids in this series... or... uh... Spike Witwicky.
Well, we see them about to kill a restrained and helpless Overlord. And the full team wasting Perceptor, Skids, and Whirl... which is impressive considering those three guys are all pretty dangerous (Swerve and Mainframe hardly count), but hardly difficult to believe given what we know of the DJD.
Tarn alone is considered one of the 3 most powerful Transformers alive (excepting Omega Supreme and Metrotitans, presumably). I don't exactly find it difficult to swallow that he could take 3 cool dudes by himself (let alone with his team).
No... the flashback (or flight of fancy, depending on what comes out) depicts the DJD brandishing a chainsaw next to Overlord's head. Nothing more. There is no discrepancy whatsoever.
I can't believe we're fixated on those little spikes. I think you're reading way too much into that detail.
We don't know what they're for, but he'll probably still feel it if they get chopped. They also happen to be RIGHT NEXT TO HIS HEAD, so there's a psychological component there... which is of course the DJD's raison d'etre.
The only thing I'll grant you is that from what we know, Overlord's body is just extremely heavily armoured... but his skeleton is what's made of UUT. It would be more demonstrative of the saw's cutting power if they went for a limb.
But christ... it's not even hard to imagine that they just got chewed up in the process of messily cutting Overlord's head off. They were, after all, right there. Easy explanation: collateral damage to the body, because even with a fancy weapon, it's not necessarily a tidy operation separating a Phase Sixer's head from his body with a chainsaw.
This is comics, bud. Nigh-invulnerable means nigh-invulnerable. Physics don't necessarily need to apply. We can just take comfort knowing that the ultimate Decepticon super-weapons are probably designed to absorb as much punishment as the plot needs to throw at them, short of playing the achilles' heel card.
But if you're splitting hairs over my calling Overlord "invulnerable"... c'mon. I'm not going to say "nigh-fucking-invulnerable" every time. He's 99.2 % invulnerable, okay?
Remember Sixshot? And his "armour forged from dark matter harvested from the core of a collapsed star"? I wonder if Overlord is similarly outfitted?
Apparently Roberts confirmed that the DJD use UUT-coated weapons, so that explains his head. And it wasn't the LL deck guns that layed out Overlord... it was the special asteroid-clearing super-missiles that Rodimus had to buy from Hedonia that did the trick. So they were imported super-missiles... presumably because the Lost Light's onboard weaponry wouldn't have done the job... which means they probably wouldn't have been so effective against Overlord either.
However, if we wanted to call into question Overlord's structural integrity, I think LSOTW certainly offers some challenges there...
And of course, we could ask other questions... like why the Autobots would devote CONSIDERABLE resources to restoring Overlord to his full-battle-ready self, including his super-armour and drill-fingers, just so they could lock him in the basement. If we're pointing out dumb stuff, his missing shoulder spikes are really pretty low on that list.
Really, really, really, REALLY tough. One of the 3 most powerful TFs alive, as implied by Prowl. On paper, more powerful than Prime or Megs, and we know that means he's SERIOUSLY tough.
You're right. They certainly wouldn't attempt to shock him out of his doldrums with very real threats of a painful, horrific and lingering death, or by experimentally cutting a few things off... before disappointedly just giving up and hacking off his head and calling it a day. The DJD live for torture. I have a hard time believing that they would give up on Overlord without spilling at least a little bit of Energon first.
(I can see how that would really irk Tarn... but I could also see him knowing Overlord well enough to taunt him with the fact of Megatron's continued survival, as has been suggested already. I think that would wake Lordy up in a hurry.)
Well, the solicits have alluded to the fact that the fate of the universe hangs in the balance in the next issue, so you may be right.
But logically, I don't buy it. I don't think the quantum duplicate Lost Light has a far reaching power to rearrange temporal reality. Since the "cancelling" effect of the two Lost Lights seems to be localized and based on proximity, it seems unlikely that the effect of merging them would have such retroactive force. I mean, wouldn't the characters who haven't synchronized pretty much disappear in that case? Go back to Cybertron immediately (since they never could have left on the Lost Light), because they are at "ground zero" for the anomaly?
But then, we're dealing with a lot of goofy theoretical pseudo-science here... in a comic book, no less... so who knows?
And it's not like there isn't already a time-travelling spaceship still floating around out there. Whatever happened to that, anyway? Did Barber just kind of forget about it?
Well yeah, ultimately I'm just saying we can't be sure.
Afetrall, one of this book's plotpoints hinged on a flashback actually being a perception. Come to think of it, most flashbacks are preceeded by someone taking over narration. Shadowplay was basically a story from multiple perspectives.
What's a big word for "a shitty way of showing something happening that discredits one side to promote the other?"
Only character accounts have, actually. The DJD's only other appearence showed them actually be detered by a cybernought, as well as Tarn getting beaten by a juiced-up Grimlock.
The "flashbacks" match the reputation of the DJD more than their actual appearence.
I have to agree on the bolded part.
But my main issue is the visualization, as I'll elaborate on below.
Nah, gonna still blame McCarthy. Because he's a shitty writer. A good writer can make this stuff work. He can't.
Yeah, you're just not even trying anymore, huh?
If he had, like, actually cut him up, like how Drift does flips and rolls and slices in MTMTE, that'd be acceptable. Where he actually looks like he's doing something physics won't kill itself over.
What you seem to have ignored is the visualization of him slicing the Insecticon (but not actually, just holding his sword out) then the Insecticon standing still, intact, until Drift has walked past. Like it's an over-the-top anime.
It's like, do you read DC? I don't anymore, and I don't remember a lot, but I'm reminded of the perfect example: Deathstroke.
When Deathstroke fought the Teen Titans the first (?) time, he took them all out. They're super-powerful, and he's a one-eyed Batman. No powers, just tools and skills. But he did it, and it was believable because the way he did it. He was super quick, responsive, always moving and using everything at his disposal, and still got hit once or twice.
Then later, in a shitty comic, he faces the Justice League (the most OP fuckers in the world... and Batman) and takes most of them out standing still, using the most ridiculous visuals and means that require him to be unnaturally powerful for what he is.
See what I mean? Both instances had him taking out a team of very capable and powerful people, but the way it was done made it very different. Artists like to make a character stand still and kick ass because it's "badass" but in reality it just looks silly. And of course, context plays a big role, but you get my point. The DJD killing everyone? Acceptable. The DJD effortlessly disposing of everyone without any sort of formidable response? Nope.
Except as I just explained, it's not.
But hey, keep on insisting you know what everybody thinks. :I
Again, in your mad campaign to try and discredit me in every conceivable way, you seem to have not noticed that I don't care that the DJD beat them. It's the notion that there wasn't even a fight. But I already explained that.
Next to his neck, below the shoulder spike.
Seriously, visualize in your head how they would have to move it to cut them both off. They'd have to cut off his head, then afterwards go back and cut off the spikes.
I mean, I fixated on it because I thought it was a clue, and you're trying to beat me into submission over what I thought might be important. Alex Milne's a very detail-oriented artists, who places clues and uses his art to tell a story outside the word bubbles.
Roberts and Milne are all about the details.
Also, you of all people accuse of reading to much into things? When you type an entire novel over every little thing? Like holy shit I'd love to respond to every little bit, but I can only do so much before I physically exhausted.
Unless you're like a UFC fighter and it's your strategy to beat the opponent by wearing them down rather than dealing blows. But I don't want to fight, I don't have the blood-pressure for this.
Again, it's not very psychological to a dude who's emotionally comatose.
Which is my point. Cutting a limb or something else would make more sense.
A perfect cut is the result of wildly swinging a chainsaw around?
Like, it's absurdly tidy. Except the head-harness. It's oddly jagged wheras the neck and spike stumps are clean. (robo-blood aside)
I didn't mean to. I was just re-asserting it so that it was clear within the context of my statements that I was aware of his not-quite-invincibility. I wasn't trying to imply you didn't know, that was me caught in a ramble.
Otherwise you'd be on me for calling Overlord "invincible."
Point of order. Both "deterred" and "beaten" would be better replaced with the phrase "briefly annoyed."
But otherwise, do continue this clash of the all-caps vocab-champion argu-titans.
I never used all-caps at all. (well, except for spelling MTMTE)
Also, don't you also get into lengthy arguements with people, too? I don't like these big long cutting-up-posts back-and-fourths, but I don't know how else to respond to each point.
Also-also, Grimlock totally knocked Tarn around. Tarn even had big round "OOF" eyes.
Your usernames, man!
And yes I'm a quite astonishing hypocrite.
HE'S MAKING FUN OF US... GET HIM!!
Damn, where's my torch-and-pitchfork smiley when I need one?
Right here, $11.3 a pitchfork.
What?? But that's UNpossible! That's what I'm saying!
I got nothing. But I'm sure there is one.
I think the term that applies in both cases is "briefly surprised". You know... like how you feel when a bug flies in your mouth.
Tarn seemed irritated by Grimlock, but not really hurt. Their tussle was inconclusive because Grimmy crapped out, but we already know that Autobot high command (ie: Prowl) considers Tarn to be "far, far" more powerful than Grimlock. I don't know how much trouble they would have had with that Cybernought if Kaon hadn't fried it though. After all, a Cybernought killed a previous Ultra Magnus with a single shot... so I guess they aren't totally useless.
Did we miss the part where they butchered a Phase Sixer with more notches in his belt than Wilt Chamberlain? We haven't seen much of the DJD, but I don't have any reason to doubt their efficacy when they're on the ball.
As I pointed out, if an unarmed Overlord can run roughshod over the Lost Light, such that the only solution is to "throw him in a timewarp and nuke him from space", I have little doubt that Tarn could wreak even more havoc. Throw in 4 more DJD ringers, and you have grounds for a massacre.
He's not great. Not the worst though. He has his missteps, but Drift in AHM isn't really one of them for me.
I think your memory of that scene might be distorted by time. It does not happen the way you're describing it.
Drift walks up to a Swarmling. It menaces him. He cuts its head clean off with a sword. There's even a little "swish" line on the sword to show the cut. Another Swarmling comes up behind Drift. Perceptor shoots it. That's it.
No walking past, with the creep's head tumbling off behind him, no physical impossibilities. Just one cut, nice and simple. The Swarmling doesn't fall over, but why would he? He probably weighs several tons, and he just got his neck sliced by some kind of steel-cutting space sword. There's no reason why a Cybertronian would necessarily ragdoll like a human would. He might still be standing there in that position to this day, even.
So, what... the samurai-themed robot isn't even allowed to execute a samurai-kill on an unnamed extra? That's harsh. It's not like he dispatched Megatron or a team of his peers.
Not that I would have cared if he had pulled out a fancier move (like he does in MTMTE). His one schtick is mystic sword shit, and he lives in a flamboyant super-robot fantasy universe. I really have no problem with him carving up misshapen cannon-fodder nasties without breaking a sweat. Not when Skids and Perceptor and Ironhide get to do the same.
And without meaning to pull the experience card, I've been fencing competitively for decades. Sometimes a simple clean nonchalant strike totally does the job, especially if there's a skill disparity. Technically it's called an "attack on the preparation" or a stop-hit. The "minimalist cool guy kill" is not strictly fantasy.
You do seem to be taking a lot from that one panel where they are killing 5 guys, 2 of whom are barely combatants. That could just as easily be a snapshot of the heroic last stand, after a long pitched resistence.
I called your Drift point hyperbole (which I believe it was, and even explained why). I didn't tell you what you think, I told you what I think. But hey, keep working that accusatory wounded indignation angle.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... could you please tone down the persecution complex? There's no "mad campaign" to discredit you, just a disagreement about what you consider to be evidence against the flashbacks being, well... flashbacks. If you're feeling "discredited in every conceivable way", might I suggest that you step back a bit and ask yourself how that's even possible. Maybe you're a mite too invested in these stakes here, friend.
Again, I think you're overthinking it. I doubt that Milne, detail-oriented as he is, worked out the precise geometry for the spikes. There are probably no fewer than a hundred different angles or approaches that one might apply to cutting off Overlord's head with a chainsaw. All we see in the "flashback" is brandishing. We have no idea what transpired after that shot, or whether Tarn put some swing into it, or got his saw stuck and had to wrench it back out, or if he just hacked off the spikes because they were crimping his style (because logistically, they would).
Heck, maybe after they beheaded Overlord, they broke off his spikes, and used them as cones for frozen engex treats. My point is that the condition of the spikes offers no particular evidence that what we saw in the flashback didn't happen as advertised.
No, but a pretty good indicator that someone is emotionally comatose is if you put a chainsaw next to his head, and all he says is "whatever". I'd be disappointed in Tarn if he didn't at least try to get a rise out of his victim... especially a high-profile victim like Overlord. Remember, the DJD doesn't engage in sensible carnage. They're all about excess. They didn't torture Black Shadow to the point that he was begging for death to leave a message... there was no witness to tell the tale. They did it because they like to get a reaction from their victims... because they're sadists.
No, peripheral damage is evidence of a less-than-perfect cut. And the three things closest to Overlord's head were chopped off. I don't think it's a stretch.
And I'm simply saying that whatever might be, the spikes don't really negate the authenticity of the flashbacks (which was where this whole thing started, after all... ). It's nice to have theories or hunches, but when someone problematizes one of your theories, why is it suddenly so personal?
Now, what you've also said is that you don't think the flashbacks happened that way because it's "really dumb" and because it's implausible that the DJD could handily and soundly defeat the 5 characters shown in the flashback... because you don't like it when characters are shown to be OP that way. So it's not just about reading the clues, but reading according to your personal preference. I'm just offering some dialectical opposition here.
The truth is, there is no clear disjuncture between the details of the aftermath, and what we've been shown in the flashbacks. Maybe the DJD simply did walk all over everyone, and chainsaw off Lordy's head. Or not. As we seemed to concur upon at the outset of this post, we don't really have decisive evidence either way. The flashbacks could be legit.
Apparently not, but you really do seem to take it as a fight (it's not, by the way).
Deflection much? Gee sorry, I'm detail-oriented. You like that, right?
I guess you hadn't noticed that I was actually responding to Haywired there, eh?
No harm, no foul.
Ha! Fair enough... i was confused by that as well. In that case, I choose to take "vocab-champion argu-titan" as a badge of honour.
Damn, where were those when I needed em!?
Then you understood it in its proper spirit.
On the main forum page, when I see an all-caps username starting with "S" pop up as "last posted" that's an automatic "better check that out" for me.
...except if it's in the Prime forum. Sorry SPLIT, meaning no offense, I just don't have your endurance given that the show's over anyway.
I don't know if it's been said yet, but doesn't the current theme appear to be "edits"?
In MTMTE 28, at the end of Rung's therapy session, Megatron goes on a tangent about little edits. I don't have the issue on-hand but according to the wiki, Rung says: "Here's a little—whatever. A little thing. A disclosure. An insight. Revisionism—I've always been fascinated by it. By the idea of a writer going back and altering things. Make no mistake: an edit is a profoundly aggressive act. As Froid once said, we grieve for the murdered word. If you want to get the measure of an author, don't look at what they've left on the page.... look at what they've taken away."
And of course Megatron explains how we edit ourselves in our daily lives in denial, selective memory, etc.
We are later introduced to the concept of "information creep" in mtmte 31: how corrupted memories lead to re-interpretation as time goes on. To me, this directly relates to Megatron's speech about little edits and how they affect our daily lives. I think we already know information creep is going to come into play before long since not only is it referenced here, but it is also the title of Crosscut's play.
The third case of small edits involves the literal case of Brainstorm's briefcase. When it's opened, time and space appears to shuffle into a random order. I'm not sure if it would fall under the same category but to me the idea can be interpreted as the universe changing the order the way an author would a sentence in a book. Though I have to admit I'm reaching here.
The last one I have in mind is, of course, the alternate Lost Light. I see this as the same case as the briefcase, the idea of things playing out differently can be conceived as a way of reality revising itself, resulting in a different fate for our lovely chaps.
I could be reaching farther than SPLIT and Overlord's shoulder thingies, but to me the idea of revision, redoing, and re-editing reality and one's life seems to be the current theme.
Which brings me to an out-of-nowhere theory that I thought of under the course of typing this post, could Brainstorm's Briefcase actually be Information Creep itself? As in, could it be the cause of the corrupted memories over the years.
Again, out of nowhere, but I thought I'd share the significance I found.
Superb post, its quite ironic that the comics have practically stated this is the theme in bold letters and the comic forums have only slightly touched upon on it in discussion.
It could be argued that this theme has kind of already been in mtmte for quite a while with all the institute, shadowplay and unreliable narrators. Also recently we have also had the slight alteration of the rewind message to chromedome.
Apparently, time itself may be in the process of being "edited" in this story arc.
I like the idea that the thumb drive Rewind put his goodbye message on is the same one that "other" Rewind recorded horrors on"
Hnnng I want the full preview right now.
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