More than Meets the Eyes #14 Discussion *SPOILERS*

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by Nope, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. Nope

    Nope Predacon

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    Yeah, "ooh," "ahh," that's how it always starts...but then later there's running...and then screaming...
     
  2. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Nice... you countered his Sam Neil with your Jeff Goldblum. :) 

    zmog
     
  3. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Hammer of the Gunplas

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    On the other hand, MTMTE will most likley be heralded as the greatest comic series ever written and be complete, so by freezing himself he'll have prevented the need to have to wait for the next issue for the rest of his life.

    And Mechafire is much more of a man than Eric Cartman, I'd expect him to beat the ever loving shit out of those stupid otters.
     
  4. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    Hermaphrodites are both male and female. And in most cases, even true hermaphrodites preferentially or even exclusively mate with others, even though they could mate with themselves. It is not the same thing as asexual reproduction.
     
  5. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Well, an entire species of hermaphrodites really does mean that there is no "male" or "female" status in conventional terms. Everybody is the same, therefore there is no sexual dimorphism. It's about the same as saying that stomachs are male, and intestines are female... when they're actually all part of the same system. It becomes an arbitrary distinction.

    Of course, all of this is complicated by circumstances. Some hermaphrodites are genetic anomalies in an otherwise sexually differentiated species. Others are exclusively hermaphroditic, but only mate sexually with each other (again, this make sense because genetic diversity is more or less necessary for survival of a species).

    But an entire species that only self-reproduces? That's... that's not really something that we can classify with our limited concepts of "male" and "female".

    To say nothing of a mechanical alien race that reproduce asexually (through as-yet unclear means), wherein ONE member has been recently genetically modified to self-replicate... I don't think that makes them "female", because there is no biological standard for "female" in such a species. At best, it makes her a freak.

    zmog
     
  6. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't mind any of the reproduction methods from TF history, as long as there isn't too much undue attention brought to them. In IDW so far we still aren't 100% sure of the process or exact requirements needed to bring a TF to life. Depending on what Jhiaxus has done to/with Arcee her being female could matter or it couldn't. It could come up in the future at some point. Most likely it probably won't, considering she was not only a failed experiment but there seems little room in either plot line currently for that.

    I am a little curious as to what Overlords creation may mean for other characters, we are specifically shown the color green to be associated with Point-One Percenters. As mentioned by others, this may give special meaning (or foreshadowing) to characters like Tailgate who was shown to have green energon around his spark. This could be due to his age and the time in which he was created, adding the same possibility to guys like Rung and Cyclonus. Or it could be a red herring. Only time will tell.



    One of the perks of being fictional reproduction, real world rules need not apply.

    Does that count as asexuality if offspring are dug up out of the ground or built entirely separate from any sort of parent? If there is even any sort of influence from another Cybertronian.
     
  7. Yggdrasil

    Yggdrasil Banned

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    Maybe Arcee was Jiaxus' way of creating a bot that has the ability of budding?

    It would make her unique as she's the only one able to create life from nothing and it would be weird enought for other transformers to refer to her "differently" in their language. If we go by the way Robers writes his stuff by using the Tardis translation style our translation form their lagnuage simply see that new way of adressing Arcee as "female" because there is no human equvalent of what she is. It wouldn't be the first time our translation suck just check out google translate!

    Plus it ties in with the marvel stories in a way that budding was a long forgotten technique that the original transformers used but forgot how to do. Maybe it was the same here in the past and Jiaxus tried to unlock that ability once again.

    Because again what makes Arcee a "she" is the fact that she's somehow DIFFERENT in some aspects from the rest of the cybertronians, that we don't know of, and not her design that makes her a she.

    Hell Arcee was pink and girly looking and when SHE was a HE.
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Well, since Roberts has jumped in, it seems pretty clear that
    A) sparks are spawned by Cybertron itself in some way
    B) Transformers build bodies around these sparks, either by hand or through industrial means... which matches the old Tech Specs canon at least.

    There could be more nuance there, but that seems to be the general idea at present.

    True, but basic logics should not be completely ignored. If you're going to create fantasy sci-fi solutions to things, then you should develop those ideas in ways that feel intuitive or natural (relatively). One should also be conscious of some of the pitfalls of conventionalized (and stereotyped) approaches to gender, and incorporate more progressive or interesting ideas where possible.

    Well, yeah... it would be "asexual" at the very least, in that case. Now, the actual role of the Cybertronians who find and "nurture" the spark is not completely clear... do they just slam a spark into a body, or is there also a layer of programming that also goes into preparing a new TF life... a series of protocols, skills and behaviours that a spark either grows into, or rebels against?

    Also, if Cybertron produces "eggs" (sparks) and Transformers do something to "fertilize" the egg into new life, then Cybertron would be the "female" and the entire Cybertronian race would be the "males"... metaphorically.

    Or... sparks are the "seed" of Primus (again, metaphorically), which becomes embedded in a Cybertronian community, that builds a body around it and "nurtures" it to maturity, in a sort of socio-cultural "womb" then that would make the PLANET into the paternal/masculine force, which would then mean that EVERY Transformer is by default symbolically "female/maternal". So that philosophy can go both ways.

    So if Arcee can produce sparks independently, then potentially that could even mean that she is the first true MALE Transformer, in a race of pseudo-females! What a twist! :D 

    I totally see where you're going with that... but like I said, you could also flip that totally the other way. :) 

    F***ing budding, man! Let's just pretend that never happened already, shall we? Ugh.

    See, here's the problem with that... why do we construct "difference" as "femininity". Outside of a totally masculinist societal construct, or a Judeo-Christian biblical "Adam came first" male primacy complex, there would be no reason to look at it that way. Part of it is because, despite women making up over half the world's population, they are still somehow seen as the universal "other"... somehow the departure from a masculine default mode. That already is a problematic specific to our culture... for an alien non-gendered species, it makes even less sense.

    Well, we don't actually know that yet... but I think that's a very interesting question. Maybe the fact that she is a freak experiment, and the fact that she has a chassis that we would identify as "fembot" are actually two different and totally unrelated elements. If we wanted to integrate those awkward earlier fembot appearances, we could just reason that there ARE some Transformers that just happen to look "feminine" (by our standards) but actually are no more or less gendered than the next bot.

    (of course the problem still remains that these "fembots" seem to be depicted fulfilling conventional earth "floozy" roles in Cybertronian society, as seen in Spotlight Blur for example)

    zmog
     
  9. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    Non sexual =\= hermaphroditic. Hermaphroditism is the presence of male and female sexual organs/cells.

    A whole species can be hermaphroditic, it just means that every individual has male and female organs.

    Transformers are obviously not hermaphroditic. Or male, or female, in a biological sense.

    Yes, it is. It's very easy to do this. Not every species in the real world has two sexes. Some species are all hermaphroditic, some all female, MANY can assume different sexes throughout their lifetimes.

    The biological concepts of maleness and femaleness are clear. I'm talking about sex, not gender. Hermaphroditism is a biological concept that relates to sex.

    Maleness and femaleness are not re-evolved with every species, they predate any living species.
     
  10. 3.8TransAM

    3.8TransAM 1989 Turbo Trans AM

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    I think your all reading to deep into this.

    Also Roberts thru us another herring here.


    I believe that .1 percenter is actually a typo and it should be a 1 percenter.

    That's right, you read it here first, Mirage is a phase sixer.


    For the love of god, please keep Transfucking out of the comics discusions?

    Its about the only thing worse that the nut jobs who write stories and draw pictures of it.
     
  11. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Yes, but only WE would refer to them as such. In terms of how a society of such creatures would construct their sexual identities, they wouldn't be "male and female" organs, they would just be... organs. Or at least, would be as differentiated as any two organs that work together (left hand, right hand? exophagus and stomach?). It wouldn't carry the same associations of separateness.

    What I'm talking about here is not necessarily "gender" but the sociological underpinnings of even scientific taxonomies, which are then structured as empirical knowledge. In other words, it's not just that sex and gender are different things, but rather to say that gender also informs science, inevitably. This isn't a big revelation... we tend to construct our knowledge in relational terms, because human constants are our context, rather than pure abstraction. The danger of course is that if one starts disturbing this foundation, we start to lose meaning... however, this is just what one should expect to happen if one encounters an "alien" culture/biology that does not conform to our expectations.

    Except that male and female as a concept only exist as primal signifiers in a worldview constructed by sexually differentiated creatures. A self-contained, undifferentiated species that replicates without fertilization (or only self-fertilizes) does not necessarily conform to the normal and conventional binary concepts of male and female. Any such classification would be imposed on it, rather than inherent to it. That is my point. Without a human male-female cultural model to structure the dynamic, any such creature would not be seen as "possessing both organs" or "entering a 'female'" stage. It would simply be "entering a reproductive stage". Of course that also means that such a creature would have to be defined in an epistemological vacuum, in which case, who is doing the classification? Perhaps (to use the example we began with here) it would be self-defining... like a species of self-aware mechanoids, perhaps?

    In fact, is a species of sexually undifferentiated creatures, who only self-replicate... even a species as we conceive it? They have no reproductive interaction with each other. They share no genetic diversity as they go. Hypothetically they would just be a series of hermetically self-contained organisms who happen to share a design, and grow in number. Setting aside the question of origins, that's not just a challenge to conventions sexual morphology and differentiation (assuming that all they produce are "clones", and not also differentiated sterile "drones")... doesn't that sort of also question our conception of what an animal species is? It sounds more like cancerous tissue, doesn't it?

    Which would probably be an apt description of the Cybertronian race, if you asked the Galactic Council... ;) 

    zmog
     
  12. Kouri

    Kouri kupo

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    Man, I was checking out the Dynamo DevLab site (it's apparently a startup by two guys with a history of design - some with Hasbro), and one of them had come up with the idea that "fembots" could be an "Amazonian" subset of Cybertronian (sort of how Junkions were an isolated group that developed "differently") populating the planet's "jungle". The "feminine" form was simple an exoskeleton with focus on agility.

    I think I would've much preferred Spotlight: Arcee as some sort of coming-to-terms story about Arcee having to adjust to the move to a more civilized (or less, depending on perspective) Cybertron, like a sudden move from Cybertron's wild to the center of Iacon or something.

    She could even still be a high-strung killer...

    Ah well, I'll let you gents tackle this nonsense over gender n species n whatnot that Furman got us into.
     

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  13. YoungPrime

    YoungPrime Well-Known Member

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    A reviewer gave it an 8, but I give it a 9.5. It had everything you'd expect from Roberts accept the humor, so I'm sure the readers who continuously complain about that should be happy.

    A few things...

    -Roberts confirmed in the Q&A a few months back that there are more Phase 6ers out there and that we haven't seen them all.

    That said, I don't think that "Heretech" is Tarn. We know that Tarn is an alias and that he's clearly a zealot but linking him to the name Heretech just seems too easy. Plus when Tarn speaks to Blackshadow in issue #7 he says "What is it with you Phase 6ers?" Which would indicate contempt. I just think if Tarn was a former Phase 6er than he'd be more disappointed with Sixshot, Blackshadow and Overlord then he appeared to be in his debut. So a member of the Warriors Elite? Yes. But a former Phase 6er named Heretech...? No.

    -I doubt that Drift has or will tip the DJD off to Overlord as some have speculated because as psychotic as Tarn and company are, they're still devoted to the Decepticon cause so to let a Con barter himself off the list would defeat the purpose. Especially one wearing an Autobot symbol. It would give other Con's the idea that they can bargain their way out as well. And for all we know Drift could be higher on the list than Overlord who's actions really aren't any different than Starscreams.

    So 2 things to remember is that despite Overlords insubordination he's still technically a Decepticon whereas Drift aka Deadlock is not. So which is worse to them?
     
  14. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    I think Drift was completely sincere in his pleas with Ratchet to end him if the DJD ever found him. Why make it up if he thought he was dying? Also I figured compared to ol' Screamer, he shouldn't be that important to them but I am guessing he gets some sort of pass. For all we know the DJD themselves have fail safes built into them that he can exploit.



    I'll deal with you later SMOG.....
     
  15. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Some interesting ideas contained just in the sketches that you posted... though, the interrogation of the function of a "face" is perhaps more complicated than necessary. There seems to be a suggestion that these "faces" are there to allow them to more easily communicate with humans. I would take it one step further, and ask why Transformers wouldn't have evolved articulated faces for exactly the same reasons that humans have... as social interfaces for conveying visual cues and emotional context. Just because Transformers are "mechanical" does not mean that they are Vulcans... that they aren't socially integrated and visually-oriented, much as we are. The extreme range of aesthetic customization and visual differentiation in the configurations of facial characteristics (and body forms) suggests also that their social integration hinges on visual recognition and individualization. In much the same way, would not "sensor eyes" and "dummy eyes for emoting" not be an evolutionary redundancy, when both functions could be achieved by the same organ?

    Of course, that said, this sets aside entirely the question of why they would be bipedal humanoids with faces like ours, with 2 eyes, mouths, noses, etc...

    I've asked myself the same thing... is there a diplomatic or ideological difference between breaking ranks as a Decepticon (being insubordinate, a deserter, a subversive, etc) and being a full-on defector? The fact that the DJD mostly leave Autobots alone, and occupy themselves almost exclusively with Decepticon targets proposes a certain ambiguity in their mandate. But surely guys like Drift and Ambulon can't be the only ones who have "crossed over"...

    Starscream may get a pass because he is Megatron's protegé... I mean, it would seem kind of ridiculous for the DJD to barge in and meddle with Megatron's own business. I could be that direct challengers to Megatron are not covered by the DJD. It may also be significant that Starscream has never actually betrayed "the Decepticons" or broken ranks... his loyalty to the cause has never really been in question... his defiance toward Megatron is, after all, part of Megs' plan.

    Think you so? You didn't vanquish me last time... I just got bored with repeating myself. :p 

    zmog
     
  16. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    I was going by the fact that they seem to put people on their lists for trivial reasons. I mean going after a Kamekaze bomber because of a fluke? Harsh. Yeah Starscream obviously gets a pass but it seems like he could have easily been on "The List".

    I can somewhat understand, if I was as wrong or dogmatically entrenched in my own opinions as you I would get bored quickly as well. Maybe one day you will learn the difference between a fact and a opinion. Don't worry, I won't hold it against you.

    Also, how was I ever trying to "vanquish" you? As we established the very first time we ever entered a discussion, I have never tried to change or alter your opinion. If anything I still struggle to understand the basis of how you think. You complain about Transformers being too human at times but then can't seem to wrap your head around a completely fabricated reproduction system because it's not "natural" enough?

    Your silly sometimes.
     
  17. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Clearly. If not for being special, he probably would have been crossed off the list (permanently) a while ago.

    Wow... that was a lame snipe. No thematic throughline, leading to a weak punchline and no burn. You should work on that.

    Maybe you should learn what "opinion" really means. I don't think you quite get the concept, or its relation to things like facts, preferences, evaluation or criteria. It's not the universal democratizing, never-having-to-justify-yourself-when-invoked factor that so many delusional internet feebs (and apparently you) seem to think it is.

    Everyone is entitled to hold opinions... this does not inoculate them against the possibility of being wrong. Nor should "opinions" be worn like an armour that insulates one from critical recourse or judgment based on the strength or tenor of their arguments.

    I'm sorry, I was just mocking your melodramatic and self-important use of portentous phrases like "I'll deal with you later, Smog". Which, y'know, really makes it sound like you think you've got some vanquishing in mind. :p 

    Errrrrr... ?

    I'm not sure I know what you're talking about, but that doesn't sound like anything I said at all. I do complain about Transformers falling into simplistic and overly literal analogs of human biology and cultural behaviour, when a cleverly mediated, symbolic and variegated relation would be more rewarding and intellectually stimulating.

    Now at first I really didn't get where you came up with the second part of your comment... but then I realized that you were just tripping over my use of the term "natural", which is not something I'd have expected of you. "Intuitive and natural" is pretty obviously territorialized within the precepts of my above point about facile analogs, and is rather in opposition to any blunt application of "capital-N" Nature in the sense that we organic Earthlings sometimes use it. So yeah. Not so silly. You just got confused by words is all. ;) 

    To clarify, saying that "fictional reproduction doesn't need to adhere to real-world rules" is a no-brainer... but said fictional reproduction should however follow the internal logics of the fiction that produces it. To use an example, that would be one of the reasons why "budding" is such a conceptual eyesore in the canon, particularly in the case of G1 Marvel.

    Now wrap it up, so we can move over to the issue #15 thread already. :D 

    zmog
     
  18. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

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    If your whole point is that the gender binary makes no sense in Transformers, I have always agreed with you. But it is biologically false to conflate or confuse "hermaphroditic" with "asexual." It's ludicrous to refer to a Transformer as a hermaphrodite.

    The only way your example could work would be an entire PLANET of hermaphrodites, (which would probably be unsustainable evolutionarily). Otherwise, if your hermaphrodites evolved biologists, they would still notice
    other organisms that are exclusively male and female. Their culture would still be very different from ours though, just as the existence of hermaphroditic
    selfing plants did not eliminate the human gender binary construct.

    Roberts' translation TARDIS would translate the Cybertronian word for "produces small gametes" as "male" and that for "produces large gametes" as "female."

    Your cells are either stripped-down injectors of genetic material, or else they also carry have the building blocks of the organism. You can't evolve a middle ground. If you have sexual reproduction at all, it follows that some form of male and female exist.

    No. See above.

    Agreed. See above.

    Nonsense. Male stages ("produces small gametes") are obviously reproductive stages as well.

    Actually microbiologists struggle with this. The species concept that is interesting and useful w.r.t. multicellular organisms does not apply to bacteria, they need different definitions.

    Again, I'm reminded of bacteria. Bacteria do not practice sexual reproduction for the most part...but they do have sex, more or less constantly. A living bacterium builds a bridge to another living bacterium and transfers genetic material that the second bacterium then can immediately incorporate. This is part of why antibiotic resistance is such a bitch. It's also a reason why rapid evolution happens in bacteria despite any one batch of them being clonal after a fashion.

    I see what you did there.

    Anyway, this is fun but please don't get in some sort of definitional war with me over male/female/hermaphroditic/asexual. To me, this situation calls for scientific terminology. There is not an alternative word to use in science for this, so we just have to accept that "male" may mean a billion things in society but it also has a very nuts-and-bolts definition relating to how you pass your genes around.

    And no, Transformers do NOT appear to have male or female sex organs.

    They DO have male and female genders, for reasons of "being a children's franchise," not not sex.
     
  19. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    I was using "hermaphroditic" (I don't remember which one of us brought that term into the conversation) as container for the idea of complete parthenogenic organism, one that produces young purely through internal systems ("fertilization" in this case being a loose term, as in not requiring outside intervention to activate this process). Even if this were achieved through internal presence of male and female organs that interacted, within a species where this was the norm, that was not sexually differentiated, the distinctions of "male" and "female" organs would be mostly lost.

    Well, we were talking about Transformers, weren't we? I was very much framing this in terms of a parthenogenic species, their ability to self-define concepts that apply to them, and how the resultant culture would in fact exert an epistemological force on how their scientific knowledge was structured.

    Also (and especially considering the Cybertronian narrative of superiority, and the "manifest destiny" of Nova's time) I think it would be highly unlikely that concepts of male/female sexual reproductive science in other alien races would deeply penetrate their own scientific culture. That would be something "that lower life forms have". It would weird for a race to re-orient their own philosophical self-concept radically to accommodate an "alien" concept, unless they were at some point colonized or dominated by those other biological cultures... which according to the recent IDW cosmic geopolitical history, is probably not the case (the Cybertronians both shunned, and are shunned by, the Galactic Council).

    Or put another way, if anything, we generally apply localized human biological concepts and metaphors to our conceptualization of how lower life forms are organized, rather than using microbacterial, plant or insect models as a semiology for our own operations. It's a top-down relationship, as I would imagine it would be for Cybertronians as well.

    Of course, the other side of that is that Transformers, as a fictional concept created by humans, would be (and are) structured according to human concepts of behaviour, biology, culture, etc... naturally. But in terms of creating more challenging science-fiction, I think it's always good to unpack some of that, turn things around, and use them to create a mirror of difference for us to look into.

    Yeah, more or less, as I mention above. But the politics of translation are another issue as well.

    Welll... bearing in mind that the fantastical nature of Transformers presents all sorts of problems in terms of scientific realism (especially as their origins are as much steeped in creation mythology as evolution), I don't think that's necessarily true. And just to throw something out there, what if sexual reproduction were a tripartite process? What then do you call the third sex? When our usual order of functions is disrupted, do we continue to apply the familiar terms and try to recuperate something very different into our extant concepts, or recognize that we need a new rulebook and language?

    Exactly. I think that science should be (and mostly is) a process of re-evaluation and rethinking, because while empirical reality simply is what it is, "factual" systems are constantly in flux, in a process of producing their own truth. They do not operate in a sociocultural vacuum, so it's useful for science to be self-reflective, rather than aspiring to norms that are so rigid, they can limit growth.

    I think I may be sort of mutilating some of Foucault's ideas on discourse and the production of truth, which I only have a superficial knowledge of. For that I apologize (mostly to Foucault). :) 

    It sounds like a very stripped down, microcosmic model for evolution though, doesn't it? But then, is using "having sex" as an description for this genetic exchange outside of reproduction a truly apt comparison, or just a useful, broad scientific metaphor?

    Well, I figured I should bring it home. We are talking about Transformers, after all. ;) 

    I wouldn't call it a war, but you're starting to actually see my point though. I am challenging scientific terminology... which is both an unproductive thing to do, as it deconstructs our ability to quantify and organize our knowledge, and (in the case of discussing fictional alien races) perhaps necessary/healthy, for exactly those same reasons. :) 

    Well, those are the real reasons. Thanks to Furman, the discussion has gotten into much more ambiguous territory, crossing sex with gender, and colliding it with what (little) we know about Transformers biology in general. Depending on how you structure the metaphors I think TF's could practice a form of sexual reproduction (according to the vaguest, most inclusive definitions), but maybe what is most challenging about that is that we've been given no reasons to link that biologically with the occurrence of gender in their species, in any way really. And I was cool with that. Dammit, Furman! You had to go mess that up! :lol 

    zmog
     
  20. star_ling

    star_ling Well-Known Member

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    Not really a snipe so much as a joke. If I really wanted to be snarky and dismissive toward you I would pettily throw cat and pony memes at everything you say. Purposely trying to undermine the seriousness of your statement by baiting cheap laughs from everyone else. That was sarcastic joke I think you took too seriously.


    Wait. Does that make me a feeb or do I get my own special category. :p  I am entirely aware of what comprises a opinion, but you seem to address things feeling your own opinion carries a bit more weight than others unless they somehow prove otherwise to you. THAT is what I was really commenting on, I wasn't suggesting you literally did not know what a opinion was. Again this too was a joke.

    No doubt. Of course. Being that you know that....what is your problem then bro? :D 

    NOW we get to the whole point. I said that entirely in jest, I was more or less acknowledging that I like to debate, discuss, and otherwise talk to you on these types of subjects. I actually expected you to respond with a "I'll be waiting" kind of phrase. I was teasing, but you can't be faulted too much. A smiley face or two would have gone a long way to denote my tone. Don't take it so seriously though, ok? But we're still friends though right? :cool: 

    Yes, that's what I meant. Though that is true of a LOT of sci fi and fantasy in general. As a comic book fan I wouldn't think that would bother you as much.

    You expected better of me? Awww. :lol  Actually that is why I quoted the word natural. I knew you didn't mean that in a literal way. Though at times it does seem that way, especially when you begin to use actual biology to defend or refute certain topics. Again you haven't really answered why you feel that certain things like budding can't work besides the fact you personally don't like it. Your attention would be better given to subjects that are regularly given more detail and depth. Like where does Optimus' trailer go. :D 

    Yes it is a no-brainer, which is why I was sure you would get that. ;)  How is it not logical, what is contextually contradicting it? (that could change depending on which universe we are talking about) We may not like this origin story, as it also serves as a way to severely limit the appearance of the other female characters, but it's not so over the top that it can't work in the story. You are free to explain to me in detail if you wish.

    We can wrap it up as soon as stop being so grumpy cat about it :)  I just can't believe you honestly thought I was being serious. My silliness point remains.

    To the MTMTE #15 Thread, AWAY!
     

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