March Madness Tournament - Transformers Style

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by OptimusSolo, Jan 18, 2009.

?

[Sweet 16] Contest #8: #4 Shockwave vs #8 Starscream

Poll closed Mar 21, 2009.
  1. Shockwave

    84.5%
  2. Starscream

    15.5%
  1. Omnus

    Omnus needs more time TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2002
    Posts:
    1,130
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    211
    Likes:
    +2
    You're quite right that it is never said that Shockwave is a faster thinker than anyone else, and you're quite right to call me on my statement about him picking up on these properties quicker than anyone else. That would be stating that he has a background as a scientist before the war, which only happens in a couple of the continuities, so it shouldn't be used here. His bio only notes that he uses a scientific approach to how he does things.

    However, I disagree with how you depict using logic during a battle. Time is an important factor in battle, so logically one must suspend consideration of many factors, relegating them to low-priority background processing tasks, in order to deal with the important factors of the combat.

    While the blinding tactic that I have suggested would be best implemented ASAP, Shockwave need not be locked into that course of action and may instead choose to destroy any shield that Megatron picks up or hides behind with a Gamma Ray laser as that would also damage Megatron at the same time. Due to the penetration ability of a Gamma Ray laser, if Megatron is holding this shield near his head, then that shot may interfere with all of Megatron's sensors anyway due to his head being in the area that the laser hits.

    It is true that Megatron can attack in the meantime, but he would be assumed to be trying to do so whether or not Shockwave was attempting the original blinding tactic. Shockwave would also be maneuvering to attempt to avoid being hit, regardless of which method he is using to attack, so even a milli-second to consider which method of attack that he is using next gives Megatron no real offensive opening.

    It is all but certain that there would be a delay. At this point, though, nitpicking over whether it would be microseconds, milliseconds, or a half-second doesn't amount to much. Technology dealing with photons is generally just pretty darn fast. Saying that delay isn't going to be long enough to be a significant factor in this fight doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Oh, just a wee l'il bit. :) 

    Still, bringing in some real life adds a little bit more structure for making these comparison, at least IMHO.

    Granted that that is a possibility, but my answer to this is that I clarified above about the rigidity (or necessary lack thereof) in sticking to the scenario exactly as I wrote it out.

    Shockwave thinks like a cold, calculating machine, but he's not a cheap desktop computer.

    With his intelligence level, it seems reasonable to assume that he's not going to waste the majority of his energy trying to blind his enemy, when his objective is to defeat him. That should be an even more reasonable assumption, when one takes into account that Shockwave's gamma ray based laser shots can shut down Megatron's ranged offense, thereby obviating a need to blind Megatron.

    Well, bringing real-life back (sorry), his nuclear reactor is probably less-efficient, but as long as he topped it up recently enough it would have no problem supplying him with the needed energy. The reason for that is because the nuclear reaction cycle is independent of the energy one chooses to harness from it, since energy supplied from a nuclear power source is collected passively.

    I could get into specifics, but that's more real life that we don't need to bring into here. I'll just leave it at Shockwave would get a bare minimum of a day of his optimum power flow.

    After a fashion, yes. The versatility of his armament makes him more formidable than a cursory evaluation would suggest. That versatility is the primary reason why he is capable of winning this fight.

    No, definitely not all directions, but if he disengages the focusing element(s), you would have a wider wave propagation for the beam than simply the width of barrel opening. The barrel opening would still restrict the propagation of waves in those frequencies, but you still end up with the wave propagating through a firing arc.

    I could only guess at what the actual angle of the arc would be, but even if it is as small as 30 degrees, Shockwave would have little difficulty hitting with his blinding attacks.

    Of course, this does introduce a notable delay for firing a Gamma ray laser if it uses the same focusing element as the other wavelengths. It would likely take on the order of one or two seconds to properly re-engage the focusing element (unless disengaging the focusing element only requires cutting power to it).

    I don't think of either of these combatants as their cartoon version, so both would be operating with their full intellect and skill. With Megatron's intellect and skill intact, I would expect that he would be in motion almost constantly during this fight. Megatron should know Shockwave's capabilities fairly well (maybe not the blinding tactic that I outlined as it would only be effective in 1-on-1 combat), and therefore know that there is no terrain that could provide effective cover from Shockwave's attacks.

    Actually, I just didn't state all the assumptions for the terrain. The tournament has no restriction on the terrain in any way. It could be any terrain you like. Given that, I chose to present things as if the terrain were blank.

    Every set of terrain offers moves and counter-moves for both combatants. Listing out every possible variation and how it would be countered takes far too much time and typing. It's just not worth it.

    The first time it is done, Shockwave would logically fall for the deception. However, I stated that under the assumption that Megatron would have such tells. Reconsidering his intellect level, he may have no such tells. Additionally, I don't think the fight would last long enough for this tactic to be of any use.

    I would agree that Megatron likely knows more about Shockwave, than Shockwave does about Megatron. I just don't see that making a difference in this match (since it's a match, rather than more normal circumstances).
     
  2. OptimusSolo

    OptimusSolo Tournament Master

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2007
    Posts:
    1,694
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    176
    Likes:
    +3
    I dont know how many times I can say it so I will try again. I have no problem with other people having a different opinion nor do I hold my opinion as more valuable than others. They are opinions none is superior. From post number one I have tried and tried to specify that my problem is not with the opinion itself but with how it is being backed up.

    I will concede that it is very possible that people simply dont have the time/desire to post long thought out responses. So hopefully that is all that is going on and even if it isnt there is nothing anyone, including me can do about it.

    But for you guys to suggest that this whole process would be even half as enjoyable as everyone tells me it is if

    #1 we had no comments whatsoever and only had votes

    or

    #2 if everyone simply said, 'cuz i like him better' or something to that effect and moved on

    thats insane, seems to me most like the debates/discussion etc.

    did I mention I dont care what anyones opinion is or if mine is outnumbered or found to be in the minority...just in case I thought I would mention it again lol
     
  3. 0ptimus57993

    0ptimus57993 Autobot Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Posts:
    294
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    76
    Likes:
    +6
    I gotta give it to megatron, apart from the fact that he is just super badass and the leader of the decepticons, megatron is a very skilled hand to hand combatant and shockwave only has one hand, lol

    But no, seriously, it was a tough call since as has been stated, shockwave is just a smidge under megs and in the marvel universe, he did beat megs, but I just cant see the overthinker taking down the master in a quick paced in your face kinda fight, though in the new comics he did kinda loose control against grimlock, that was sweet, but not enough to convince me that he could take megs since he has so much more power and wouldnt even give shockwave a chance to break loose.
     
  4. OptimusSolo

    OptimusSolo Tournament Master

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2007
    Posts:
    1,694
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    176
    Likes:
    +3
    Notice, this post for example. I give kudos to Optimus. I have no problem with the fact that he voted for Megatron, and on top of that I like the fact that he took a couple sentences to explain his vote.

    IMHO...A Perfect post
     
  5. Evil Porkchop

    Evil Porkchop Pork, the evil white meat

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2003
    Posts:
    1,156
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +1
    Weighing in with a prediction is one thing, but badgering people like he has in this thread is something totally different.
     
  6. omegagoalie

    omegagoalie Cybertronian Puckstopper

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Posts:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Likes:
    +0
    Ebay:
    And mine aren't????? NOW I'm mad at you:mad 

    And to Omnus...Your posts are longer than my History text books from High School...Anyway you could break them up so my eyes don't explode from reading your thoughts? Thanks!

    Megatron still wins.
     
  7. kryptofred

    kryptofred super-con

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Posts:
    755
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Likes:
    +0
    Ebay:
    Don't completely disagree, Porkchop, but he has also tried to make amends more than once in this thread and others. Maybe he should change how he words things, or something, but I only see him trying to understand why someone thinks what they think. That's the only point to this. Go back and re-read a few pages, he's been badgered too. Then when he tried to explain himself he got badgered more. Not saying he's inocent but he's not the only one to blame. I realize nobody thinks they, themselves, started it, but maybe it's time we all (myself included) backed off and let this thread get back on point. I think it's one of the best yet, and doesn't need us cluttering it up with a pissing match.

    With that I'm off to bed. Gotta work in the morning.
     
  8. 0ptimus57993

    0ptimus57993 Autobot Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Posts:
    294
    News Credits:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    76
    Likes:
    +6
    WOOT! I got me some kudos, hehe
     
  9. omegagoalie

    omegagoalie Cybertronian Puckstopper

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    Posts:
    1,907
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Likes:
    +0
    Ebay:
    Wasn't there a a candy bar called KUDOS? KUDOS Bar or something like that?
    Sorry you're reply made me think of that:D 
     
  10. Treadshot A1

    Treadshot A1 Or just 'A1' for short...

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Posts:
    7,599
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +85
    Hey OS, how many times do i have to say i'm not Screamer? I suggested the cult idea first, therefore i lead it. I am Shockwave. Megatron has been offline for a long time now.

    Change it, or your out of the cult FOREVER!
     
  11. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Posts:
    18,104
    Trophy Points:
    332
    Location:
    Robot Narnia, Quebec
    Likes:
    +592
    Holy crap, you weren't kidding. This thread is a circus! :) 
    I think some of this info is extremely questionable and rather slanted in it's recollection of comic book events. I just want to point out a few instances...

    When did Shockwave "overpower" all the Dinobots on the cartoon? Seems like something I should remember. Also the fact that he defeated Omega Supreme should be mitigated by his pwnage by Bruticus and frequent defeats at the hands of just about anyone who felt like taking the Space Bridge. I seem to recall Starscream pushing him around too.

    Anyone who has actually read that comic will know that this account is completely bogus. In that battle Shockwave flat-out overpowered the Dinobots (as did Megatron, even more decisively, one issue later).

    A heavily damaged Megatron still recovering from wounds and not operating at peak. Even so, he simply allowed Megatron to short-circuit himself with water, then added injury to insult by blasting Megs while he was down. Good tactics yes, but not an endorsement of Shockwave's power. Also of note in this same battle, Shockwave even acknowledges that even at his full power, he is not a match for Megatron. Straight from the Astro Magnum's own vocal processor.

    He did unhinge Megatron by feeding his paranoia, yes. Well played. In regards to the last two, it's worth mentioning that neither Fort Max nor Scorponok were depicted in Marvel as substantially more powerful than any other leader-class character.

    That's really nothing more than a backhanded reference to the contrived "good guys always win" defeats of the Cartoon. To acknowledge this is to also acknowledge Shockwave's inability to hit anything. Ever. :) 


    I see some holes here. Megatron's alt-mode is hardly useless, and if anything, provides him with a surprising advantage compared to Shockwave. Megs is capable of firing himself in gun mode, and it has been suggested that his destructive capabilities in this mode may even be greater than in his Robot mode. So not only does this make him potentially a harder hitter than Shox (higher firepower), but also a much smaller target than a 35-foot flying cannon (it's rather funny that you used the terms "35 foot flying gun" and "easy target" in the same sentence :D  ). In Alt mode, Shockwave's only advantages are his higher flying speed and ability to produce more than one kind of radiation.

    Secondly, there is no reason Megatron would not be able to use his Anti-Matter blast in this fight, as it is one of his inherent powers. However, unless he was assured of a hit, it would be a bad strategy to do so. I expect that such a particular type of attack would require at least a brief power-up moment to achieve his dimensional link, that would leave him open to attack. Also, in the event of a miss, he would be significantly weakened... something he can't afford against Shockwave. The Anti-Matter blast would be a good overkill coup de grace against a stunned Shockwave, but that's about it.

    Again, lots of holes here.

    I think we can safely say that Shockwave can NOT just convert a nuclear-powered explosive discharge into power for himself. That's pretty much preposterous. VERY unlikely that Shockwave could "steal Megatron's cannon"... this isn't a comedy routine (like many of the cartoon battles were). Also Shockwave only has one hand, which would limit him if the battle were to go to close quarters. I think most would agree that Megatron would probably tear Shockwave apart hand-to-hand. Besides his higher Strength and Endurance, it just seems like something Megs would be better at.

    I'm not sure why you think an Energon Mace would be useless... if it can work on Prime, it can surely lay a beating on Shockwave (though I confess I'm not convinced the Mace should be considered a documented part of Megs' arsenal... a one-episode appearance is rather circumstantial, all things considered).

    While I commend Omnus for coming up with this strategy, I believe many have overrated it's efficacy. There is certainly no guarantee that this ploy would succeed... otherwise, we might as well consider the Protectobots invincible since they all wield blinding Photon pistols. :) 

    If Megatron were simply to shield his eyes (or adjust the settings on his optics, whatever TFs do instead of blinking), this could leave Shockwave open to a counterattack. And who can say who would be quicker on the draw... Shockwave must at least transform to Ray Gun mode to use his broad radiation emitter powers.

    I don't think it would be Megatron's style to hide out. Likewise, if Shockwave decided to conceal himself in the terrain, Megatron would likely flatten the whole area in a single blast (much like flattening a small town in a single blast, as noted in his Profile) to remove such cover from the equation.

    While I acknowledge that Shockwave's abilities give him the option of synthesizing various other radiation-based powers, I think we should keep in mind that such improvisations would likely be less effective than specially designed weapon or power. For example, it's unlikely Shockwave would be able to effectively jam more than one sensor range at a time... he is not a specialized stealth agent like Ravage. And in most cases, any specific radiation tricks he might employ would have to be emitted from his Gun mode (as per the Profile), leaving him in what I would assume to be a more awkward form.

    I didn't direct that at anyone in particular... I was just saying that unless someone comes up with a particularly convincing argument I was planning on voting Megatron.

    This is correct. I would add that the gulf between 9 and 10 ratings in the stats can often be substantial, given that 10 often is used for stats that go "off the charts" so to speak... so Megatron's edge in Strength and Firepower might be more significant than suggested at first glance.

    Also, while equal in Intelligence and Skill, there is also room for quite a bit of interpretation concerning how these attributes are manifested. Shockwave's Skill might apply to his technical aptitudes and ability to manipulate radiation, while Megatron's perhaps references his battle-hardened reflexes and martial prowess. While Shockwave is a keen analytical and scientific mind, Megatron might be described as an intuitive, canny and inventive genius. Both are likely tactically superb, though with their own particular style.

    As I said, it leaves it open to interpretation, but based on the way the characters are portrayed, I think some themes become quite evident.

    As you say, this would require Shockwave to either begin in, or transform to gun mode... conditions that Megatron would be unlikely to allow if possible. Also the use of the wording "nearly-instantaneous bursts" would seem to betray a bias... suggesting that Shockwave would be able to calibrate, fire, and re-calibrate his main cannon 3 times in rapid succession before Megatron is capable of taking a single action. I don't mean to suggest that these abilities would require a lengthy power-up, but it's fair to expect at least some brief adjustment and transition time before and between blasts. While Shockwave has a dizzying array of tools at his disposal, the implementation of these tools, and his adaptation to their use is likely less than streamlined.

    Also, it is uncertain whether these bursts would be of sufficient strength to burn-out or disorient Megatron more than momentarily, given that he probably has at least some rudimentary defenses against such effects. Perhaps presumptuously, I believe Megatron is made of proverbially "sterner stuff". :) 

    Still a good strategy, but perhaps more applicable to larger, slower opponents (like combiners) who would have less chance of responding quickly and intuitively enough to disrupt Shox's ploy. A logical course, but not infallible.

    Setting aside the albeit impressive scientific content here, this presumes that the alien alloys that make up the armour of one of the arguably most battle-tested and durable TF warlords would be similarly vulnerable. But in any case, I'm sure Shockwave will utilize his most effective and penetrating weapons against Megatron, whatever they are.

    I debate even that. It makes sense to attack Megatron's primary weapon, but at the same time we must also question A) the precision of Shockwave's marksmanship under battlefield conditions (oft-maligned in cartoon continuity), and B) whether Megatron's cannon, his signature weapon and a part of him, might not be similarly resistant to damage as its owner. Also worth noting that Megatron would almost certainly still be able to strike with comparable firepower with his Alt mode.

    I applaud your acknowledgment of the subjectivity of this scenario, but "virtually impossible" still sounds like pro-Shockwave hyperbole to me, especially when his opponent is functionally a paragon character-type. :) 

    He may think he does...right up to the moment he is blasted out of the air in the middle of transforming to gun mode. Shockwave may himself be prone to overthinking his strategies... following the logical course, but being ill-equipped to deal with an unexpected variable or unlikely (according to his estimation of his own abilities) turn (ie: Megatron just being faster, more intuitive, furious or tactically prescient than he had factored). Following a logical blueprint doesn't necessarily make him any better at carrying out his plans, and throughout the media, Shockwave has not been infallible. He does seem to suffer from a certain detached scientific hubris due to his devoted faith in "logic". This could prove to be his undoing against a truly unforgiving and formidable foe like Megatron.

    Unless the blast is directional... surely the weapon would be designed to at least ensure that the immediate victim of such a blast would suffer more than the dealer... otherwise the design of the weapon would be rather absurd. In any case, Megatron is notably tougher than Shockwave. However, I agree that such an attack would likely be used only as either a desperate gambit or a finishing flourish, due to it's weakening effects.

    I take your meaning... but my point is that formulating a logical plan does not mean that your logic itself is infallible, based on adequate assessments, or proof against all variables. Shockwave is very intelligent, uses logic as his fundamental precept, and believes he has all the answers, though that does not mean that he does. Moreover, his ability to calculate variables is not necessarily as immediate or accurate as say, Prowl for example, whose Profile goes to great lengths to express how special that ability is.

    However, there is an idea that seems to be pervasive in this thread, that "logic" is by definition both an absolute objective truth, and unassailable. Logic is merely a way of making decisions, as opposed to Megatron's equally formidable intelligence, experience, gut judgements and raw cunning.


    Although the actual logic of that scene in the Marvel comic was somewhat dubious, I believe the intent is clear enough. Megatron is crafty, and leaves no resource or opportunity untapped ("Everything is fodder", after all). Even when he would appear to be defeated, he was able to beat Shockwave at his own game and take command of the Decepticons again. He is really not to be underestimated, despite some dodgy depictions in the various media.

    Well, in all fairness, he had just had his aft handed to him by Omega Supreme, so he wasn't exactly in a state to stand up to a fully operational Shockwave... at least not physically. The fact that he still pulled a win out of that confrontation shows just how savvy Megatron is supposed to be.

    None of which are generally prevalent enough to impede his performance... hence "no known weaknesses" in his bio. He has all those flaws, but remains deadly effective in spite of them (cartoon villainy aside).

    Again, I believe that is largely groundless editorializing on the part of the TFwiki, when in the media it is generally shown and acknowledged that Shox, despite his vast powers, is till second to Megatron. The latter part of that quote is a paraphrasing of the Budiansky profile, while the first part about being "possibly more powerful" is pure fabrication on the author's part.

    Untrue... Galvatron was insane. Megatron was prone to fury, but aside from his paranoid stage after Prime's death in Marvel, Megatron is pretty consistently depicted as an inventive, plotting opportunist (example: G1 cartoon, Marvel) or a gravely calm, ruthless, juggernaut (IDW).

    That is my recollection as well.

    You mean besides Megatron generally being equal or better than Shockers in almost every single category? :) 

    In all fairness, the "cult" is a complete joke, spawned by an offhand jibe I made specifically in regards to the emerging clique-ishness in these tournament threads. The rest has just been banter, and I don't believe any regular contributor to these threads was excluded from taking part in that... so I think you're overreacting on that count.

    However, I do agree that lately (and the early part of this thread in particular) there have been a lot of snippy comments back and forth, and some unwarranted bashing. Whether trash-talking in jest or not, I think we should take a step back and maybe make an effort to relax, and be a bit less rowdy with each other, dig? That goes for fanboys, cult power-struggles and, er... "e-penises"... :rolleyes2 

    There are no teams here, no collusion, no gangs... considering that in any given match, we can all find ourselves arguing against or in support of each other, I think everyone who makes an effort to contribute to these threads deserves a bit of mutual respect.

    On a side note... has anybody seen Sto Vor Kor? He's usually front-and-center for this stuff, but I haven't seen many of his posts just lately.

    Word. Up.

    There's actually not a lot I would add to that.Good stuff!

    Interesting point. This is actually one of the most insightful comments made so far about the distinctions of Shockwave's thought processes, and the suppression of his ego and emotions. His high courage reflects only his great confidence in his own abilities. Other than that, he has no problem dropping an activity if it seems impractical to continue.

    Actually, if you reread some of those early Marvel Shockwave comics, you'll notice him using a lot of his radiation-based secondary powers, presumably because as the main new character in the series, the writers were more interested in exploring his abilities. Off the top of my head, he used a visible-spectrum flash, some kind of magnetic polarity-reversing wave, and used his powers to read subliminal informatino directly from Rumble's memory banks at one point.

    LOL! I... am... Nomad... Faulty! Faulty! Must sterilize! Ster... il...ize... *zzt* :D 

    zmog
     
  12. Easterling Capt

    Easterling Capt I am Vern Schillinger

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Posts:
    4,996
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +5
    Ebay:
    meg black hole shoot ?

    kill shockwave instantly?
     
  13. krazy83karl

    krazy83karl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Posts:
    160
    Trophy Points:
    56
    Likes:
    +0
    Well smog you can say he's as equal or better in every category but as we all know tech specs are just a generic starter to the real bot I think its fair to say if there is just a 1 point different either way between the two competitors they are basically evenly matched.
     
  14. Omega_Soundwave

    Omega_Soundwave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Posts:
    678
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +1
    Good post SMOG.

    That is why I think Megs would win here.
     
  15. _Galvatron_

    _Galvatron_ Emperor of Destruction

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Posts:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    It is logical for Shockwave to be victorious.

    Logic>Emotion.
     
  16. Cast

    Cast Roll the dice

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Posts:
    5,129
    Trophy Points:
    267
    Likes:
    +236
    I'm sorry but that is a very illogcal statment, my laptop works on logic but that doesn't mean it could beat me in a fight, other things need to be taken into account.
     
  17. _Galvatron_

    _Galvatron_ Emperor of Destruction

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Posts:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    You are comparing apples and oranges.

    I speak of irrationality versus cold calculation.

    One is greater than the other.
     
  18. Silent Bob

    Silent Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Posts:
    264
    Trophy Points:
    122
    Likes:
    +14
    I also voted for Megs in this one. Lots of good reasons posted but I think these two sum up my feelings best.

    I agree with this. I just feel Megatron has that same indefinable “something” Prime has to never give up. Regardless of the odds or the situation he will find a way. The only weakness Megatron really has is that the bad guy needs to lose in the end. Against Prime this is ultimately always going to be his downfall. Against a fellow bad guy this won't apply.

    I think this is quite telling. Although Shockwave might believe he is the logical choice to lead the Decepticons he always waits until Megatron has been severly weakend before confronting him directly. We have never seen a 100% Megs Vs a 100% Shockwave (to my knowledge). You could say this is just Shockwave using a situation to his tactical advantage, but it just seems more than that to me. I feel its because it is the only Logical time for Shockwave to attempt a phsical confrontation and win. As stated by old one eye himself, even at his full power is not a match for Megatron.
    Starscream will try to take command, through covert means and treachery because he knows he simply isn't powerful enough to go toe to toe with Megs. Shockwave, while more powerful than Starscream and close in power to Megatron knows he needs to rely on an exta edge before he will take on.

    In short Shockwave knows he can't logically take Megs in a "fair" fight. If he knows it who are we to argue :wink: 
     
  19. trebleshot

    trebleshot www.Toyark.com Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Posts:
    2,611
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Likes:
    +2
    And by suspending consideration, he will not be immediately aware of everything that Megatron is doing, or the intended results of those actions. Shockwave is not a mind-reader, nor is he a fortune-teller. He cannot see through everything that Megatron could throw at him and immediately counter it. He's just not that good.

    Basically, if Shockwave puts certain considerations on the back burner, they will not have as much processing power to utilize as they aren't as important. So those considerations will not process quickly enough to be of any use. As you said, time is an important factor (I would say critical) in battle.

    So where would the logic be in continuing to analyze data that is out of date? Shockwave would drop it, only to be replaced by some other secondary event or object which could easily change as the battle wears on, thus making Shockwave re-adjust his analysis or drop the subject again. In this way, Megatron could force Shockwave to deal with the immediate present all the time, rather than give Shocky even a moment to formulate a larger scheme (which seems to be Shocky's MO).

    Agreed, though in retrospect I agree with the others that Megatron is not one for hiding, shield or not. He may throw debris (wall of a building, cars, buses, etc) at Shockwave, blast at him with his fusion cannon and actually hit him with the mace while Shockwave was dodging the other two attacks. But hiding behind a building is just not his style.

    You're also assuming that Megatron will only use one method of attack at a time. He could implement multiple strategies at once and continue to press whichever was successful. Any single mistake that Shockwave makes is all it would take for Megatron to move for the kill.

    Megatron has a more concrete history of one-on-one battles and would be accustomed to it and the various strategies in that arena. Shockwave, on the other hand, is more accustomed to fighting large scale battles between armies.


    I don't mind that at all - it adds to the conversation. I just got a laugh out of the comment.

    I'm no nuclear scientist, but I would think a nuclear blast would be more powerful than a gamma beam. If they met, I would think the nuclear blast would overpower the G beam, especially if Megatron can flatten a small town with one blast. That offers quite a bit of range and would press Shockwave into using his speed, more so than his weapons.

    In fact, if Shockwave were to use his ability to fly as a means of dodging Megatron's attacks, Shocky could burn himself out sooner than expected with the high fuel costs of his abilities. Not to mention that he is probably less maneuverable in gun mode than in robot mode.

    I will grant you that, but that still doesn't say that he can outlast Megatron in an extended battle. Megatron's fusion cannon can use small particles to create variable-sized nuclear blasts with no notable drain to his systems. The only energy drain he would experience would be the anti-matter blast. And I'm sure we all agree that Megatron would save that particular ability for a can't-miss coup de grace, rather than during the course of the battle.

    Basically, Shockwave will not win in a protracted fight, which is what this will be.

    Greater versatility does not guarantee a win. Yes, Shockwave also has a high skill rating. But so does his opponent, and I am quite sure that Megatron is fully aware of the capabilities of his opponent. Because of that knowledge, Megatron would most likely want to close the distance and Shockwave, knowing this, would continue to counter that by moving away. All the while, Megatron's real aim is to wear down his opponent so he can finally move in for the kill.

    For an opponent such as Megatron, one or two seconds may be all he needs. Because while Shockwave is doing those adjustments, he is not firing - only dodging. Megatron would not stop just so Shockwave could essentially "tie his shoelaces." Megatron would then be able to maneuver Shockwave into a series of moves that will ultimately cost him the match.

    As I mentioned earlier, at this point I doubt Megatron would hide.

    Agreed.

    Which would be an opening that Megatron would fully exploit, giving him the upper hand.

    I would think Shockwave would also have his share of tells as well, assuming either one had any at all. As others have mentioned, just because Megatron normally doesn't employ a more logical thought process does not mean he is incapable of doing so, should the need arise.

    Also, given the near-equality in all of their stats, I predict this will be a very long battle, though it is in Shockwave's best interests to end it as quickly as possible. The longer the fight goes, the less his chances are of winning. But I also sincerely believe that Megatron will offer him no quarter.

    Superior knowledge of an opponent can mean the difference between victory and defeat. I sincerely doubt that Megatron has revealed his Achilles' Heel to Shockwave whereas I'm sure Megatron has discovered a means to dispose of Shockwave if he ever became a true liability.

    *munch munch*

    Yes, and it was delicious.

    Nicely done.

    EDIT: For those who don't like them, forgive me for the long post. But it's so rare these days when I can have a healthy debate that doesn't degenerate into name-calling and locked threads.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2009
  20. Cast

    Cast Roll the dice

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Posts:
    5,129
    Trophy Points:
    267
    Likes:
    +236
    Ah but that then assumes megatron is irrational and also that both parties in this fight are equal, they are not. An irrational yet stonger being could beat a logical bu weaker one in brawl. Clearly this fight is closer that that but megatron dows have a number of edges over shockwave and is equal in everything but speed. Megatron is stronger and not irrational possible emotional at times but he can be as cold and more ruthless than shockwave. I would say logic sides with megatron on this one.

    Oh and the wa i see this fight going: Shockwave and Megatron entre the field of combat, shockwave declairs megatron is the logic victor and puts himself into stasis lock, giving megatron the win but saving his own life.
     

Share This Page