(Edit: updated a few things to keep things more organized in terms of discussion. again please keep things nice and civil. would be a huge shame for mods to shut down the thread)

Like the thread title suggests, it poses a very interesting question. It's a question a lot of us turn down, deny, and get annoyed with time and time and time again. Are KO's truly ruining this hobby for us? Well..., Are they? Sadly, only people who run companies would probably know for sure. But a lot of collectors in various hobbies out there claim to feel it.

As of late, Knock of companies have started not only knocking off official products again, but now it's bled over to the 3rd party products as well, and it's starting to get a little out of hand, especially with a lot of younger inexperienced collectors out there who are just starting to get into the hobby seriously.

Think about how high the prices have been as of late and how high they continue to climb. Meanwhile the products being made are becoming of much much cheaper build quality. QC has gotten out of control on a lot of stuff as well. A lot of even the mainline official products are of a much more poorer quality and have been now for some time. Do we have a part in all of this. Are we the consumer to blame as many try to suggest?

If we stop buying KOs, will the KO companies will die off or continue to flourish? Are they are a Bane on what we love as many will try to suggest, or..., Do they help us fill gaps in our collections? Are they infringing on intellectual properties? Yes. Is it against some law to buy them, No. But people have their own moral standpoints on the matter of KO's and 3rd Party. What are yours?

Here are a couple videos to help spark some productive discussion and perhaps some healthy debates:

I know some folks may not like the guy, but I gotta give Bobby Skullface credit where it's due here in "this video". he brought up a ton of very decent and valid points, and a lot of them resonated within me. I highly encourage everybody else in the fandom to also make videos like this, so long as they have facts to back up their material and they do the proper research prior, I think they'd be pretty informative and helpful to pretty much all collector communities.

Note: Let's keep this thread as civil as humanly possible. No mud slinging or baiting in hopes of a flame war. Respect all the rules of TFW2005 when posting replies.

Note: Bobby's video is not meant to promote him or give attention, it's just merely here as a conversation starter. As for the Video in question:

Here's another really great video from Diecast of Radio Free Cybertron. He also brings up alot of interesting and valid points. Please keep an open mind when viewing and again, feel free to discuss your own opinions and viewpoints on the metter of KO and 3rd Party offerings and what if anything they are doing to our hobby.

Note: Diecast's video is not meant to promote him or give attention, it's just merely here as a conversation starter. As for the Video in question:

 

Knockoffs that come out wayyyy after are generally fine, but even then they are dubious. Maketoys' Defensor didn't sell well, and the KO is probably going to do better because it's bigger and cheaper. It hurts the retailers that still have it in stock too. I don't know how KOs affect a well selling piece though.

But the trend lately, with them being announced the same day as the official product (aka everything MechFansToys KOs from DX9) or even PRIOR to the official reveal (FT/PF Cyclonus), that is going to end up hurting everyone, especially if it becomes more prevalent. And that's where it needs to stop before it gets out of control.

 

Third party prices are better now.

Takara is going up only because they are putting more effort into them and adding articulation and stuff.

Tell takara to bring their price back down and quality up, then ill come back

 

Yeah those ones will hurt even the phoenix ko

 

I know one thing's for sure I have never seen so many KO transformers advertised and promoted everywhere as I do now. business is booming for TF-Direct and tons of other online stores who sell KO products. they seem to be mostly contained on amazon and only sold by some person named theBestgrey os some such, but yeah there's even apps on phones that promote them.

I'm glad that KO companies are improving on already existing stuff, but it still doesn't change the fact they are still stealing they toys they improve.

I guess what I'm getting at is I'm going to be alot more cautious before just blowing money on the first company who promised improvements on a pre-existing product, and that's gonna be tough for me. I really love what Wei-Jiang has been doing. and hell they even made their own version of Omega Supreme. so I hope they continue that trend and stop stealing other existing toys and make their own stuff from scratch.   so long as they go that route. I'll start buying from them again. but not til they are officially finished with making KOs

 

Saw BSF video with interest and in general I agree with him.

I think KO's do indeed hurt the hobby. It takes sales away from the original producer, especially as happens now with KO's being announced while the original product is only just released. HasTak can likely take it, since they produce in mass numbers and the KO's are only a tiny fraction of lost sales. But for a 3rd party company with already much lower production numbers, that can be a problem.

If fans react to a new reveal by saying they'll wait for the (inevitable) KO's then the company that produces the Original looses bussiness and income that enables them to make the product in the first place. And most KO company's don't have the Know How or motivation to make original products of their own.


I honestly don't think I've ever bought a KO, unless it was for parts, kitbashing/repainting or because the KO offered something that the official didn't (a variant colour).


That said, I'm definitely interested in (even though I haven't yet bought one) KO's that are different from the original. KO's like the oversized DotM Optimus Prime that is a significant improvement over the original, lacking voyager

Likewise, I haven't bought a single Titan figure -- well, I bought some Legends and sold those immediately -- because of 1) the quality of Hasbro plastic these days (the only see-through plastic should be transclear plastic), and 2) because they're a bit too small for my taste. Weijang now upscaling those to Voyager sizes and with plates filling out empty parts and better joints, is I think great. It turns them from figures I never would have bought to something I'm getting.

 

If anything kills 3rd party it will be 3rd party. Whenever a new figure is anounced there are four other companies within the week to announce their's. Can the collector's market really support 5 or 6 Springers, Seasprays, etc? Like a gold rush so many companies have opened shop and flooded the market that if a collector waits awhile they can get a brand new copy for a third off.

We are also starting to see price wars between companies and seeing just how much the markup is. $100+ price drop here, $50 combiner limbs there. Toyworld not paying their designers and creating their own direct competetion.

The bubble is starting to bust but KOs have so far have had very little to do with it.

 

The only thing they hurt are the feelings of those who view toys as a means to heal their damaged psyche, by going online and spweing crap to KO/3p owners, in order to have a false sense of superiority. KOs have been around forever and will always be. If the companies want to stop buyers from turning to KOs they have to take responsibilities and improve the QC and lower their pricing. Its been 5 years since the release of the Lambor mold, they have reissued it this year and still its chest doesnt tab and it cant properly hold its guns. Why shouldnt one get a KO for 1/3rd the price?

 

I have to disagree here.

KOs are leeches sucking the blood out of all sides. Profiting and taking away from the other companies is most certainly going to crush us, and the people they are ripping off. maybe not now at this moment, but give it 6 more months. (at the very least)

 

meh. that's just what we call mold degredation at this point. hell i got no idea how those seekers have held up this long and even they are littered with QC issues gallore, yes?

 

Mold degredation from day one? You are funny sir.

Oh the Seekers are just another showcase example, if I list them all we will have a 20 page post.

 

i don't buy KOs

 

Isn't this how Has/Tak views 3rd party? Not paying lincences, using designs directly based on expensive media that Has/Tak produced, directly competing with their Masterpiece line.

3rd party is not exactly a noble enterprise.

 

I'm only interested in KO's of stuff that doesn't have an official counterpart, like when Weijiang did their oversized Evasion Mode Prime, etc. For 1:1 KO's I'd rather get the real thing.

 

The idea that KOs will kill sales of the original is not true. People who want the real deal and have the money will always go for the real thing. People who don't have the money will simply not buy it. A person who buys a KO never intended to buy the real deal in the first place or had the money. Think about it, why would anyone want a lesser version of anything when a high quality version is available? Take for example Fans Toys Phoenix. I like the figure, I think it's nice but I would never drop $200 for it because in my opinion it's not worth that amount or I can't simply drop $200 on one figure. So if they never make a KO, I will never buy the original either.

Anorher good example, movies. I watch many movies online for free, it doesn't mean I had any intention to go to the theater and spend money on it from the beginning. If a movie comes out and I really want to watch it, I go to the movies and spend $30 to get the full experience. But if it's some b grade movie that got low reviews, I'll just watch it online for free and if it never get's released online for free I'll just skip it. We ALL do this! How many people skip the theater for the $1 Red box dvd? You could argue that by paying $1 instead of $12 at the movies you are also hurting the sales.

Bottom line, KOs fill the void for people who don't have the money to buy an original and never will or for people who are mildley interested in a figure but not enough to pay full price. Either way you can't say KO's take away sales because that is not true

 

All this discussion is useless because we have no idea how big the China market is for this stuff. Just like how the bayformer movies are surviving and thriving just from the China market alone.

IP/Copyright don't mean shit in China, and who knows when that might change. If we're lucky, maybe in our lifetime. Who knows?

Until then, we are completely at the mercy of the Chinese market and the collectors there. Each of us can take a stand and refuse to buy KO's, but ultimately it may not matter at all until we know what % of the global market share China has in this.

 

I highly suggest watching the video. again there's a ton of facts there that truly opened my eyes and took the blinders off.

give it a chance.  

 

Yeah it's a good video and touches on pretty much all the important points. I've brought this issue up FROM a buyer perspective a few times because to me that's what this is ultimately all about. But I got 'I don't care' as a reply.

The average person just sees himself as a consumer where morality, ethics, respect and resonsibility don't find into the equation. People just stop their thought processes at that notion.

So yeah, it would be great if this video raises awareness among the community of what it means to buy a KO.

 

So the thread of the name shouldnt have a questionmark since Bobbies 'facts' are true and there is nothing to discuss? BTW I am taking you up to the bet of the six month period.

 

I think KOs become a much bigger problem when they're produced closer to the quality of the original toy (let alone when they have improvements), because they're more likely to take away sales that otherwise would have been made.

Where there's a low quality cheap KO (or even one that is under or over sized) it doesn't necessarily take away from sales as the audience is different. Somebody who was never going to be a customer anyway doesn't really effect the viability of a product by buying a KO. But some of the higher quality KOs get a bit more concerning. In some of the threads for the knock offs of the Maketoys Target and Head Masters I remember seeing a few people talking about buying the cheaper KOs in future when they previously had bought the full price originals. If that happens in sufficient numbers then I could see that causing problems for third party companies.

I know some people talk about liking KOs as keeping companies 'fair' on pricing, but I don't think KOs are a good mechanism for that. A KO company has genuinely lower costs than the first company to create a product, so gauging a fair difference between a KO price and an original price gets pretty tough. Especially since the fixed development costs need to be spread across the sales of the figure, so the development recovery needed per figure goes up as less figures are sold and vice versa. So even the perception from third parties that KOs will affect sales will affect what they need to charge, but potentially causing them to need to charge more to recover the fixed costs from fewer expected overall sales.