I agree with this line of reasoning, for the most part (though I think the conclusions are a bit extremist, "evil"? Hardly). Botcon exclusives have always been a sort of "extra; bonus; add-on" to any line that is in existence. The toys they make are not "core" toys. Beast Wars Arcee, I'd think, is a good example of that. Sure, the character is a "core" character to an extent, but not within that toy line (Beast Wars/Beast Machines).

The Bugbite from that same set is a pretty good example I think. Thundercracker, Dirge, and Thrust simply are not. The Classics Seekers are a bit more than "bonus" toys, in that regard. I think the "pages upon pages" of threads one could search would prove that. If they weren't, I don't think one would see as many people so upset.

Hehe, and a large portion of this thread is the complaining about the complaining   (Guys, please chill some.  )


I'd just like to see some kind of solution that makes most people happy. I'd like to see Thundercracker, Dirge, and Thrust released in some form, but not one that infringes on the Botcon Seekers mostly. I say that because, sure, I missed out on the set too (but it is a choice I recognize that I had to make due to finances), but mainly for the overall fandom who is so much more upset over it than I.

Guys, Botcon exclusives will sell just because they're . . . well Botcon exclusives. I think this year's set proves that one. "Timelines" =/= Classics, but it's completely sold out. I think this year's set is a good example of "bonus"-type toys, and not the toys in question.

Ok, it's back to Alternatorsland for me . . .

 

Yeah, too much whining generally, for my tastes. . .also, noticed your sig. Did you know that there is a chance that Matt Trakker will be released as a 25th Joe soon?

http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?t=57905&page=5&highlight=trakker

That would be awesome.

 

I just think making some of the Classics seekers so exclusive was a bad decision to begin with, especially since the convention didn't really take advantage of that exclusivity (i.e., make more money off it). It's well-known the seekers are viewed as a set by most collectors, so any of these collectors owning at least one seeker would have at least a mild interest in owning them all. It would not be hard to imagine that there are many more of these collectors than there were figures available at Botcon. Due to this limited supply and IMO foreseeable high demand, the only motivations for making the figures Botcon exclusives should have been to charge ridiculous money for them or to increase the number of them exclusively available at the convention to increase the incentive to attend (therefore, selling more tickets).

Otherwise, mass release would have been a more reasonable and profitable approach to selling the figures, as they would have reached a larger market. Little aversion to flooding markets with multiple repaints of a particular product has been demonstrated in the past, so that would not likely be a strong argument for that not being done in this case.

 

This is the EXACT snobbish, elitist, "bratty child in the playground" attitude that I refered to in an earlier post. You don't need to justify spending $300 on Transformers to yourself or anyone on these boards by keeping the "Limited" and "Exclusive" labels on them pure.

If you wanted to spend $300 on Transformers because you liked them and you wanted them in your collection then that right there should be justification enough.

You should be proud to own some of the most sought-after Transformers ever and that in itself should be enough.

What do you care what FP makes money wise and sells? What do you care what future botcon sets sell for? Unless you're the FP CEO WHO REALLY CARES!! You got the Transformers you wanted....and that's the bottom line.

Wouldn't you want the sets to be priced as low as possible? It seems to me that FP is gouging collectors by doing this.

Who really cares if down the road Takara releases them? Your argument is about as thin as the collectors who collect MISB G1 Transformers and then whine when they're re-released.

Retailers and Toymakers have no real loyalty to the secondary market.....nor should they. If you want to protect your investment or justify paying $300 on some TOYS by slapping a limited or exclusive tag on it then you're playing a fools game and should invest your money elsewhere.

Otherwise enjoy the Transformers that you bought....be a kid again....and quit trying to rain on someone else's parade.

 

Well this is the crux of the issue. People believe these toys should have been released at retail and that FP committed a 'crime' against the fandom by making these so they are OK with jamming a thumb in FP's eye.

Honestly, here was the truth of the situation: Classics was ending, All the collector lines were failing and the success of the movie and the movie toy line was an UNKNOWN. This was the only way at the time Hasbro and FP was able to get all 6 seekers made in plastic. Classics couldn't support any more repaints or waves and was on the way out. Classics 2.0 was not even on the plate. Japanese Classics was not even necessarily going to exist. They made a choice to get the figs into the hands of the fans, much like Spacewarp, Classics Devastator and Universe Seacons.

Read this thread for all you people who were not around and need a history lesson: http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/showthread.php?t=128150

The entitlement to owning these figures has been downright destructive for over a year now and while all you new guys rolling in are saying "what the heck? no sweat" are missing the history.

Could classics 2.0 supported repaint seekers? hell yes. 2 years between retail releases they could have released the rest of them as part of classics 2.0, if only they had known. But they didn't because that line of thinking depended on the success of the TF movie and the need for a realistic vehicle filler line because of Animated. They thought they were doing the fandom a favor and now people see it as being betrayed by Hasbro and FP for not releasing them retail.

Even if it was a bad decision at the time, the negative result is going to be felt by FP and the concept of "exclusives" should be reserved for figures most people don't want. Which is incredibly selfish and reeks of entitlement that if an exclusive is popular, the exclusive label should be broken and more figures produced.

 

If you want to sling insults...

This is the EXACT selfish, entitled, "bratty child demanding toys aisle" attitude that people think they have the right to own any TF they want at retail prices. See? It swings both ways. The "As long as I get mine, I don't care who it hurts attitude" that is driving some of the more nefarious aspects of the fandom that is hurting retailers and Hasbro.

FP has done lots of positive things for the fandom, The TF club and Botcon grows the franchise, I do care if their exclusives in the future suffer due to people demanding the breaking of a FP exclusive. It hurts them and hurts our ability to get future exclusives and the fandom in general.

 

Without getting into the name-calling, I'll just respond with a point I already made in my last post. I care because if FP makes money and does well, they'll keep making MORE cool stuff. If they don't do well, there won't be as much cool stuff made in the first place, let alone quibbling about the price and/or exclusivity.

 

That first statement is where you're wrong. I personally want EVERY collector to be happy and get the things he/she wants and likes.

The whole "exclusive' thing needs to go away. If you ask me, FP and Hasbro are using that label as an excuse to milk collectors for 5 $10-dollar toys. They're milking the good, die hard fans who attend Botcon (and some who don't) for $300 bucks when they should be mass-released at $10 and $20 each.

Is that considered doing alot for the fandom? Milking the fans? Not in my book.

Then you have the owners of the Botcon 2007 set who want to justify spending a ludicrous $300 on some $10 toys by trying to maintain the exclusivity of the set.

And the argument that only those who couldn't afford the Botcon set are the ones whining about Takara releasing them is ludicrous as well. I could've afforded them but, I chose not to.

My problem lies with the ones who own the set trying to keep them exclusive just to justify paying $300 for them and/or just to maintain their future value. You paid $300 dollars for it....enjoy your toys and let it be. You don't have to justify anything to anyone. Nor do you have to rain on anyone else's parade.

If you're trying to maintain their future value then you need to invest in something a little more worthwhile than some plastic child's playthings. Or better yet become a scalper.

Owning them should be enough.

 

Here, one last time for the few of you that can't get it through your heads.

Hasbro was not going to make the rest of the seekers. FP thought the fans would like them, so they finished the set. So it was either exclusives, or nothing, what's your pick?

 

I don't agree because limited runs of metal injection plastic molding have increased production costs. So they are not producing them for the same 27 cents that it cost at retail and pocketing 80$ a fig. This is a false premise from a lack of acknowledgement of the costs of limited production runs and the other false premise that these should have been made at retail large runs to keep the cost down.

Bendimus is right, It was "FP or not at all" at the time. We had no idea Tf the movie was going to infuse such growth into the fandom that it did.

 

Wah! Wah! Wah! I want Aaron Archer to hand deliver me the seekers to my house for free because I'm entitled to them!!!

(<---is annoyed)

 

We really didn't. The movie had the chance of putting the entire franchise back to pre-Beast Wars status, so no one knew what the future was going to hold. It’s unfortunate, because I would love to have the rest of the seekers. I couldn’t afford them at the time, and they’re way too much on the secondary market now IMO. If you didn't get them, you probably won't. Just let it go people.

 

They're expensive because they only make a few thousand (at most) of them. If they could sell 20,000 BotCon exclusives at a lower price to 20,000 attendees, they would. Unfortunately not that many people go to BotCon.

A mass release product for a main line can number in the hundreds of thousands, which means the cost-per-unit to manufacture them is drastically reduced.

Besides, the decision to make the remaining seekers Botcon exclusives were likely made before Classics was even released. Hasbro plans out toylines months in advance, especially as in this case they created classics as a stop-gap toyline when the release of the 2007 Movie moved from November 2006 to July 2007.

Hasbro had no intention of releasing the remaining Classics seekers, as when the line ended, the Movie stuff was just beginning to appear to replace them.

 

Right, which is why I posted it  

I'm certainly not disputing that, but the only thing that some people are wanting to see is some version of those 3 Seekers. I don't see that as inherently wrong, even to the point that I've said several times that if they were to be made that the should be made drastically different than the Botcon set (in whatever way(s) that would entail) so the persons who bought that set would not be too upset and that those who couldn't/didn't get the set [for whatever reason(s)] would somewhat satisfied too.

*nods*

Be sure you're not putting words in my mouth here. I'm not suggesting that exclusives should be made of unwanted characters/toys. The main point [not the only point] attendees of Botcon tend to make is that the toys are "souvenirs" of a good time, etc. Of course last year's set was that, but it was certainly a LOT more as well.

There's no need for anyone to roll that way here. I mentioned previously in this thread for everyone to settle down. I'd take my post here as a graceful, second warning to any who chose to do so . . .

 

I think everyone can agree that as of Botcon 07, Classics was a dead line, and the only way to get the "holes" in our collection was through FP. Now that it's '08, Universe and Henkei add a whole new perspective to things, especially with these mysterious Japanese exclusives. (Note: They're STILL EXCLUSIVES.)

ANYWAY...

As for the history of "bitching and moaning," I was referring to this thread (and perhaps the other) and not the threads of a year or so ago. I have not found "bitching and moaning" in these two threads except from people like nkelsch who felt the grievous need to attack people who are simply saying that it would be fun if these were who they thought they might be.

I, too, would like for Takara to clear the air on who these might be, but that happening might not be as fun for some BC07 owners. I can only imagine the years worth of butthurt BC07 owners threads if it does turn out to be TC.

 

At the risk of continuing the current Seeker Wars going, even though Classics 2.0 is coming out, we'd almost certainly still never see all three of Thundercracker, Dirge, and Thrust put out at retail, even if FP never made them at all.

For what it's worth, so long as any potential future Seeker release is sufficiently different from the BotCon versions, I'm perfectly fine seeing pretty much anything at all. Baby-blue Thundercracker? Fine. Go for it!

(And I've said many times over: Action Master Classics Thundercracker. Make it happen.)

 

The Butthurt is not so much the secondary market prices which we have no control of because there are always reissues, but the future of other exclusives.

Any company that releases an exclusive, if that exclusives popularity increases to a point where the secondary market becomes saturated with demand, then the 'fans' will expect the exclusive broken and essentially 'reissued' so it is available at a cheap common price.

This means *EVERY* exclusive will now have a 'wait and see' attitude to see if the exclusive will really stay that way or will it eventually be re-released at a lower cost and wider market. BLACK RODIMUS is a perfect example as he is a pretty common Japanese exclusive much like White Prime is to Ultra Magnus. Does that mean we could see Black Rodimus next year in some other exclusive HENKEI release? If the market this weekend goes through the roof because everyone wants Black Rodimus will fans begin "lame, eBay scalpers wanting 100$ for black rodimus, I hope they release a Henkei Black rodimus?"

And if it is Skywarp and Thundercracker... Then the drumbeat for Dirge and Thrust will begin, and all the "good for the fans, you owe use, go to hell FP" comments will start all over again.

Guess what, we can't all have things we want, I think the destroying popular exclusives for the good of the fandom is in the end going to hurt us all and those who have supported us.

I am sure we will all be talking about it at Botcon in a few days, someone ask the FP what they think about it. If they are not worried about damaging future exclusives then so me it, they are the most impacted by this.

 

Don't you know? They sell Suzanne Summers excersise equpiment at HLJ too, "Metro Flex" is all the rage in Japan you can do it anywhere, You can:

Metro Flex on the Bullet train.

Metro Flex in the subways while groping the ladies.

Metro Flex on the Bus.

Metro Flex in your cubicle before you commit Seppuku after loosing a major business deal.

"Metro Flex"! For the Awesum workout.

 

No one will spend $300 on - what will amount to be falsy advertised - "exclusive" figures that they could get a year or two later for $20 if they're confident enough that their online whining will get them what they want.

This is entirely untrue- Transformers fans will spend $300 on non-exclusive figures on Ebay that they can have in stores in six months. This is a well-documented phenomenon.

It's not false advertising, either- the words "exclusive" mean very little in terms of the law, and they CERTAINLY do not cover foreign products that are not intended to be sold in the USA.

The argument also assumes that every exclusive will be remade. So far, none of them have been remade.

People believe these toys should have been released at retail and that FP committed a 'crime' against the fandom by making these so they are OK with jamming a thumb in FP's eye.

No, people want Thundercracker. There is no elaborate conspiracy. They want Starscream's other lackey, as they have two Seekers already. They like the character for some reason- it may not be immediately apparent when one realizes he has very little personality or significant roles, but he is still popular.

It has nothing to do with any animosity towards Fun Publications. They just want the toys. They'd want the toys if they were a retail exclusive to Zamibia, Israel, or Luxembourg, whether it was for Botcon or Dairycon or UBcon.

The entitlement to owning these figures has been downright destructive for over a year now and while all you new guys rolling in are saying "what the heck? no sweat" are missing the history.

Destructive? There has been no destruction as a result of this issue, unless you count me knocking over a shelf of Classics figures by accident while rearranging them. Ramjet's leg fell off, but the ball joint snapped back on. There is also no history, nor entitlement. The fans don't think it's a right. They just want to purchase the toys. Don't exaggerate what may well be the most insignificant issue in America today.

Which is incredibly selfish and reeks of entitlement that if an exclusive is popular, the exclusive label should be broken and more figures produced.

The fans aren't pressuring anyone. They have no say on a Japanese company. Takara is releasing these figures because the Japanese retailers want them. Don't go attacking us- Ganbo and the other retailer said more airplanes, and Takara is in no place to disagree.