Starscream's design is one of my favorites. The only design I don't particularly care for is Jazz.

 

I wouldn't be so sure.  horse  Let's get all nerdy and sci-fi for a second..

Considering the outlandish nature of the 'plausible' elements of the movie, it's pretty clear that we're dealing with a world that's firmly set in a Newtonian universe. That is to say, absolutely anything is possible and plausible. If these robots are capable of self-propelled space travel, the manipulation of metal on a molecular level (in order to 'scan' and reconfigure, not to mention mimic materials like fiberglass, chrome, and glass), emit particle rays, lasers, and manufacture incendiary weapons and tactical missiles, all while utilizing on-board systems and power generation, then they're already mass-shifting to a great degree. It's only a simple step up from that to start shunting off spare mass to a "pocket dimension", or something like that.
Obviously, they're using mechanical systems and technology that we've no concept of to bend physics in ways that we didn't know it could be bent. Hell, now that relativity has been debunked in a laboratory-situation, it's very possible that these alien machines can completely circumvent normal physics. Additionally, this alien technology could have limitations that make no sense to us, dictating that some robots retain the same scale, regardless of their alt-modes. Science fiction is great like that. If something makes no sense, you can always just say that it's beyond the realm of human understanding. As cheap as that is, it's been the cornerstone of the genre since its inception.

As a side note, the Newtonian world-view also would lend support to a lot of ideas that have sort of been just dismissed offhand. For instance, the idea that these robots, being aliens, would not have humanoid facial features. I mean, they're aliens, but they already have a torso, head, and four bipedal limbs? Not to mention, one looks like a big scorpion. That's all a pretty big coincidence. At this point, a recognizably human face isn't all that far-fetched. It's just as likely that they'd look like us as it is that they'd look like arthropods. In fact, considering their recognizably human bodies, it's *more* likely that they'd have human faces. Besides, who decided what aliens look like, anyway, Mr. Scott and Mr. Giger?  

 

They should have used a smaller fighter jet for Starscream, then a more faithful robot mode would have become somewhat possible.

 

Would Starscream be cool if he was a dinky F-16 Falcon, Mig-21, or and F-5 Tiger?

Btw, the old SS was an F-15 and that was not a small fighter plane.

And to make it fit with the "robots infiltrating" thing it'd have to be an American fighter jet too sense this is all taking place inside, most likely, the United States.

Be odd for an Russian Su-37 flying around without causing some huge investigations going on with the American military.

 

His gorilla mode isn't very cool at all. I'd take an older smaller jet-mode if it meant a good Starscream 'bot form.

 

The laws of physics have yet to disprove personal pocket dimensions and gravity control. Not to mention how "Bogus" his gorilla mode looks to begin with. Why is it that these arguments always put one thing above all else, and nothing else ending up looking bad matters? I feel this movie is "cheating" out of the difficulties of making an LAM TF instead of finding good solutions for them.

What you're basically saying is that people nowadays lack imagination. The LAST thing we should do is encourage that. We're loosing the Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre because of it, something TFs was a part of (at least the comic).

I don't think you realise it, but transforming a car into a robot isn't as feasible as you think. Where does it fit all the Cybertronian limbs, etc. the skeleton, yet still be a believable vehicle to the core like the movie bots are attempting? It's extremely difficult without some level of super-Transformation(which they need to close the seems and for some of the bending/morphing like Barricade's hood transformation).

Soundwave's ability to shrink was kind of like his "Super power". Last time I checked, they're making an Ant-man movie. And another Hulk movie, for that example.

Are you forgetting that this is, in essence, a comic book movie? Nobody asks where Spider-man gets all the mass required for webslinging across town Nobody asks how the Green Goblin can hold up a ridiculous amount of mass and not sink down through a weak platform.

Exactly! I don't get this argument at all, it's pure rubbish. Saying he wouldn't be cool for him to be a smaller plane or a bigger robot.

He looks about as absolutely uncool as possible when it comes to relevance to the original character as it is now. Why is it that this isn't even considered as a factor by the opposition?

Besides, what's cooler than one small jet unexpectedly taking out a whole Squadron of bigger ones? NOTHING.

Either way, my Mass Contraction and Jetpack ideas still stand.

And an F5 would have been PERFECT for Screamer.

That's one awesome jet. It's smaller but looks more fierce than the F22, which is too roundy, it doesn't make a great impression despite it's size.

 

Oh good. Scraggin's back, and quoting me already. Hooray.
For the record, I have never said that the way ILM have done it is the only way. I asked him to show me an alternative. He still hasn't.
And I suppose you don't rememember the whole "no mass shifting" thing a while back. It was something a lot of people felt strongly about.

 

I'm gonna jump here right off the bat and plead to keep things CIVIL in here.

Any violations will result in an automatic removal from this thread.

Starting now.

 

I don't think anyone lacks imagination, and I'm really not interested in getting into a geek-off about pocket dimensions and whatnot. Quite frankly, I don't have the expertise to even attempt such a dialog.

The writers have stated repeatedly that they want to create something that looks believable on screen. I'm simply suggesting - and it's the only thing I'm suggesting - is that a car unfolding into a robot of basically the same size and dimensions is more visually believable in the real world than a twelve inch tape deck growing into a 30 foot robot.

And I'm stickin' to that. I agree with the decision to not use mass shifting for that reason.

 

Actually, I showed you three alternatives, and you seemed to ignore them.

None of them were mass shifting. You didn't even read my post properly.

And yes, you pretty much are insinuating in the post I quoted that this is more or less the only way to do it, and it isn't the first time, or that at least a G1 or Energon-like Screamer couldn't work.

And who cares if people feel strongly about mass shifting? A lot of people feel MORE strongly about Starscream. Surely characters are more important than something like that? Why is it that this constantly comes up, Thing X matters but equally or more upsetting Thing Y doesn't because it's not as "conceptual" somehow?

 

who says mass shifting is unfeasible?

i just got up from the couch, then sat down in the adjacent lazy boy.

i just shifted my mass.

 

Then don't bother going into that level. It was the last gripe people had with the Hulk movie, which in fact did rather well.

Why can the Hulk get away with it, a creature created with earth level technology, but not aliens using technology much more advanced than ours?

But why is this the only thing that matters, and not how Starscream's bot mode looks?

And what about my alternate solutions?

His Gorilla mode looks incredibly bogus. I'm sticking to that.

 

You might be right, it might look bogus as hell, and then again it might not. If no one bothers to try, then I guess we'll never know. If their's anything I've learned about Sci-fi movies, anything can be explained off. That's the power imagination....
I feel like I just did an after school special with that closing...

 

Yeah, we've never seen size changing with this level of technology. You can't make those kind of presumptions, or trust the word of the people that are trying to sell you their vision.

Also:



Tell me that doesn't look like Screamer.

 

Totally agreed with this..you could have a great scene of him outmanouvreing a squad of superior jets and wiping them out, and he'd look good when he transforms too.

The F-22 should have been assigned to a different Transformer if the military were insisting it be in the movie, IMO.

 

Exactly. That character could have been the brutish, traitorous jet that people want Starscream to be. As if Megatron only had one guy like that in his ranks.
It could have been Skywarp who'd make more sense as a brute. Or hell, Jhiaxus could have been in it as "reinforcements" towards the end, revealing his origin and maybe a bit of set up for a future G2-based movie.

Smaller Jet = More maneuverable, anyway, at least with more advanced alien technology that probably wouldn't take as much space and thus wouldn't require a larger jet to be better.

I also see no reason why Megatron couldn't have looked more like Megatron. By that I mean less monstrous, more of a heavily armoured, proud general.

If they're truly "robots in disguise", why do they always have to be the biggest and best? Nobody would expect some terrorist in an old F-5 to wipe the skies with a bunch of F-15s and F-22s.

Wouldn't it have cost less to use an older jet anyway?

I'd LOVE an F-5 Screamer anyway, as he's always been an F-15 like jet(F-15 or F-22), or an alien jet. I'd love to see him get to be another Earth Jet. It's a change I'd like to see.

If a few of us could get a united front and go over to one of the forums, we may get Starscream switched to a smaller jet for the sequel(specifically this one, the more clear you are, the more demand it looks like there is for it). Its the easiest and most clear cut way to get him a better robot mode.

 

im digging it all

 

Quoted for people who ask if character is more important than concept.

Quoted for people debating the believability of the technology over the believability of its use by the characters in order to adhere to archaic cartoon standards.

 

That's all well and good, but we're talking about a genre wherein one of the bedrock principles is that normal science and empirical thought are blithely circumvented. Like I mentioned before, there's always the argument that we just don't understand alien technology well enough to make logical assessments about it. Maybe there's a limitation specific to Megatron's nature that limited him to an immobile, defenseless alt-form on Earth? Maybe there's a reason that mass-shifting and the spontaneous generation of energy isn't always put to the seemingly most advantageous use?

That said, as far as Megatron's case, I personally couldn't offer up a logical reason behind it; personally, I always viewed it as a symbolic, literary kind of thing: what's more poetic than the most evil being in the galaxy becoming such a pure, simple object of hatred and death? Knowing that inside was a giant, walking, hate-filled war-machine made you look at that tiny gun and recognize its inherent potential destructive capability.

I digress horribly. I guess my point is that suspension of disbelief is integral to enjoying this genre. Filmmakers help us with that by filling in as many details as they can for you, making the pill easier to swallow, so to speak. But there's a point where they have to stop spoon-feeding us the illusion. If we can accept giant robots, then we can accept mass-shifting and human faces. Too much reality is unwelcome, I say. If I wanted my fighting robots super-believable, then I'd stay at home and watch my automated vacuums bump into each other in the living room. I don't know who's benefit it was for that they mucked about with the source material so much for this movie, but it wasn't for the kind of people who are drawn to films like this..

 

All the technology in the universe can't change the laws of physics.
I guess that's why the "realism" of BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is popular right now while the more fantastical STAR TREK series' have fallen by the wayside. One is considered 'realistic' while the other is not (not my opinion by the way, but I've seen it expressed on many a forum). Both are science fiction shows.

People at large (apparently) don't want outlandish sci-fi concepts and oddly coloured aliens: Only science fiction they can relate to the present day is acceptable to them right now. Whether that's right or wrong is another issue totally unrelated to the film, but the TF movie has followed the pattern to appeal to the widest possible audience.