While I don't like it as much as I liked the old Batman cartoon, it's still pretty good. I really don't mind the way the Joker looks.. He looks pretty damned cool to me same goes for the Riddler.

Of course I don't actually get to see very much of the show, but the DVD is pretty cheap, and I wouldn't mind picking it up.

As for the Teen Titans though.... I really can't stand wanna-be anime style art. It just screams "why even bother coming up with something original".

 

I think for alot of us, its which came first. TAS came first, and no matter what, its going to be our favorite, even if they make 5 new and different Batman cartoons over the next 50 years. Why? It's what alot of us grew up with. It's all about precedence. Had "The Batman" come out in 92 and after it ended, if we got TAS last year (like we got The Batman), we might still hold onto "The Batman" as our favorite. That's just one reason. I'll echo the others sentiments here and say that I loved the storytelling in TAS as well. Sure, alot of the episodes didn't have alot of non stop action, but the stories were great. The Batman is more about action, rather than story telling. It's light and fun. If that's your bag, then great.

I'm sorry, but we're gonna compare the two no matter what. It's Batman, with all the Bat Villains. Sure they might be reimagined, but the comparison will always be there.

 

Actually Debesh if that were true I'd be stuck on the Challenge of the Superfriends since that was what came first in my life. But no Batman:TAS, Batman/Superman, JL and JLU are hands down the best Superhero cartoons ever. (Followed closely by the 90's Spiderman and X-men cartoons,Teen Titans then X-men Evolution.) It's just that as a superhero cartoon THE Batman doesn't cut it. I'd rather watch Jackie Chan Adventures than THE Batman.

 

Actually the difference is Bruce Timm and Paul Dini did an awesome job on all the series, TAS to JLU. The Batman is crap because it doesnt follow in that line of quality.

 

Wow! The thread is still going!? I watch the two part batgirl begins and I think the series is okay but it is definately written for younger viewers than a wider auidence. It is still batman but is it me or does batman have a little bit of a accent? Not terrible but to me not the Timmverse bats. I honestly think they could of done a batman begins style series that was focused in the early years ala flashbacks in mask of phantasm and still kept the Timmverse going. So they could of possibly showed the roman and his crime family and other villans left out of the orginal animated series. I would say they probably didn't want to do it because they already established the first meetings of foes like scarecrow, riddler, ras al ghul, etc in the orginal show so they can't just pop up beforehand. So i guess that would write out the big two movie villans and some of the other main colorfull villans. Now for the joker and penguin I believe they just poped up in the orginal series with no backstory until later.

 

Okay, for those that don't get it, let me try to be a little more academic about why the two shows shouldn't be compared the way they're being compared. Since both shows were based on a comic book franchise, I'll start with the nature of comics.

Comic books are by nature an amalgamation of two forms of expression: visual art and literature. It's because of that amalgamation (among other misguided reasons) that a lot of "experts" on visual or literary arts won't acknowledge comics as a valid medium for great art. They see their own preferred medium as tainted and diluted by the other. Animation is a lot like comics mixed with theatre, which is also a mixture of literary and visual elements. To the literary side we add acting, and to the visual side we add motion, choreography, etc. I think it's easier to see the difference between the two aspects in the comic medium because they aren't joined by the common element of theatre. While some comics are pretty evenly balanced between their visual and literary aspects, many lean strongly in one direction or the other. This is also true of animation.

Batman The Animated Series had a literary focus. While the art and animation (which are not the same thing) were generally good, they were generally a bit dry, generic, and old fashioned. Bland, but still does a good job at what it's there to do: support the writing. Subjectively speaking, the writing was very good, and that's what really shines about the series. It probably wouldn't win any awards from literary scholars, but it's the closest to the level of "fine art" you're going to get from a superhero cartoon for kids.

The Batman is deliberately different from TAS and chooses a visual approach. This is a valid focus, as comics and animation are blended mediums. In this case the writing is merely of "okay" quality. It's not great most of the time, but not awful. It's mainly there to support the animation. The art is bold, unique, stylish, and and excellently designed for a sense of dynamism. There's a lot of energy just in the designs alone, but the animation really draws it out. That's where The Batman shines, particularly during action scenes, which there are a lot of. Where it loses "fine art" points is that it doesn't apply as much of that art as it could to things other than action, although it sometimes does, as in the introspective scene of Bruce Wayne looking out over the Gotham skyline that I posted a few pages back. That may be a big point deduction from an artsy perspective, but it works great for a fun action cartoon with an ulterior motive of selling toys. That's why I felt the analogy of the cheeseburger was appropriate. It's a really good, super artery-clogging cheeseburger too.

We can see that this is the case by looking at what's been a popular point of contention: Mr. Freeze. We all know what a deep character he was in TAS. In fact, he surpassed the comic book version, prompting DC to officially adopt the cartoon version's back story. I'm pretty sure everyone who's been following this thread loved that, myself included. So when The Batman introduces its own version of Mr. Freeze, fans of TAS lament the "missed opportunity". However it wasn't a missed opportunity. The creators of The Batman are familiar with TAS. It wasn't "missed", it was avoided in favor of doing something different. The point wasn't "what kind of impact will the writing have on the viewer?" it was "what kind of impact will the animation have on the viewer and how should we write it to emphasize that?" In this case, the intended impact is "aww, sweet!" It worked too, as people in this thread have cited Mr. Freeze as their favorite visual redesign. By making Freeze a morally bankrupt character who is aggressive, unremorseful, and actually enjoys what he's doing, the writers gave the art and animation teams an opportunity to go nuts with the action sequences. It that respect, the decision to write Freeze that way makes sense as a deliberate choice, not a missed opportunity.

Leaving the "Visual vs. literary" subject, there's another reason I think Mr. Freeze was reimagined the way he was in The Batman. The creators of the show seem to be setting up a cast of opposites. It's already been mentioned in this thread that the Penguin is a sort of opposite to Bruce Wayne. Note that not only is he an opposite in the sense that he's an aristocrat who lost his fortune and turned to crime, but also a bat is a flying mamal while the penguin is a flightless bird. But besides that, Clayface ("The Clay Face of Tragedy") is the opposite of Joker ("The Rubber Face of Comedy"), and Mr. Freeze ("The Big Chill") is the opposite of Firefly ("The Big Heat"). To that end, it is also appropriate that they made Mr. Freeze more "cold hearted" and that he's only after jewels or "ice". Simplistic maybe, but it matches the theme they're going for.

 

Or just perhaps since the two shows are both about the same source material, then naturally they should be and will be compared to one another. One is clearly superior to the other. As evidenced by the opinions in this thread, and just any other time THE Batman is mentioned. It's just not as good quality wise as Batman:TAS - JLU, and it never will be.

 

i agree to that, just like if G1 came out after beast wars, no one would then like G1 better, after watching beast wars first.

 

Opinions are not always evidence of quality, especially misguided ones. As I already said, TAS is of an arguably higher writing quality and The Batman is of an arguably higher design and aesthetic quality. That in itself is a sort of comparison between the shows. My assertion was never that the shows should not be compared, it was that the shows should not be compared as though they are the same thing. An orange differs from an apple because it has the qualities of an orange rather than an apple, but we can compare them because they share the qualities of being a fruit. It would be absurd and quite silly to complain that an orange fails miserably at being an apple. Hence the common expression "apples and oranges".

Moreover, they're not quite based on the same source material, as The Batman in some cases appears to be choosing to draw from previous characterizations of the villains (mainly Silver Age where possible) rather than more recent interpretations that TAS was based on. That again is a very different sort of comic book, despite shared characters and trademarks.

More than that, you've also completely neglected to actually address any of my points and are merely making vague gestures with no base but opinion.

 

I could similarly argue that TAS and JLU are crap because they still don't match the intricate depth of story or detail of art in DC's recent comics. Would that really be fair?

 

You certainly could, I've seen that opinion put forth before too. But that just falls into the whole Tv/Movie adaptations almost always fall short of the original written source material barrel.


AS for my opinions and the opinions of the most people who've seen both shows, being misguided that just a little prejudicial and arrogant don't you think?

 

Let's see they BOTH Cartoons, both made by the WB, both Starring Batman/Bruce Wayne. That hardly qualifies has apples and oranges. it doesn't even really qualify for Golden Delicious Apples and Granny Smith Apples. And saying that they are not both based on the same source material is just plain silly.

Neglected? I neglected nothing, you're trying to turn this into some fact based squabble when it's really a bunch of internet geeks squaking about a couple of cartoons less than 10% of the population watches.

 

Apples and oranges are both fruits, both grow on trees, both have hard seeds, soft flesh, and an outer rhind. Both are edible, sold by weight in grocery stores, and both have a sweet and/or tangy flavor. Rembrandt and Mondrian both painted with crushed pigments mixed with linseed oil on stretched canvas with a brush made of animal hair. You're nitpicking at analogies, but again you simply gesture and dismiss them instead of actually giving any real reason.

No, I'm trying to turn it into an intelligent discussion about the actual qualities of the two shows instead of a shouting match about "my opinion is better than yours for no other reason than it's mine".

 

Actually I am correctly you horribly inaccurate analogies to show the fallaices in your actual arguements.

And you're the with the "my opinion is better than yours for no other reason than it's mine" defense with just a dash of, "my look just how much more open minded and intelligent than the rest of you I must be for having these opinions".

 

Nice English skills there. Anyway, let's compare our arguing techniques. I am presenting a hypothesis, then explaining my position through reason and analysis, and citing examples. For color and illustration I throw in an analogy or two.

My complaint is that you state an opinion and attack my analogy, which is only an appendage to the real argument. Furthermore your attack on my analogy only works at all if we assume your opinion to start with, wich is purely subjective and has little or no support given. If we all followed that formula and each simply stated "well here's my opinion and yours is wrong" without detailed and well reasoned support, there is no debate, it's just a pointless squabble that nobody can win.

I was not making a personal attack. Can we please avoid bringing down the wrath of the moderators with crap like this?

 

Thank you for summing up this thread so nicely.



             

 

Unfortunately I have, so why in the world do you keep dragging it out? If it's all about baseless opinion to you, then you've already given yours and there's no point in attacking mine. I was hoping for an actual discussion of the two shows with somone else who could offer an interesting and well-reasoned look at the nature of the two shows, but now my post is buried in over a page of garbage. If you think it's a dead topic and don't want to discuss it, then stop and let someone else get a word in who might still care.

 

I'll watch the Batman over the current Transformer show. Also, I like the designs of the villians.

 

ha ha calm down both of you they are just cartoons! you are fighting over cartoons!

people can like a show with out needing reasons, that is a lot of what opinions truely are, when you like a show, you like it, normally not even knowing the reasons.

Batman, and the batman are two different shows, even though they deal with the same characters, just in a different way, most of us have been watching the current universe for so long that we are just not ready for a change yet. there is no reason to fight over this, none, not at all. so calm down before a mod locks this thread. both are batman in there own rights, both are good shows, although, the batman will never be up to par, with the old batman, but then again, i wouldn't know, i'm not 12 no more, but it is way beyond any other current mainstream kid's show out there, and is a lot better then having more poorly dubbed/edited anime on tv then there already is.

now before this thread get's locked, i ask you both to calm down please.

 

I appreciate it, but I'm not actually even trying to pick a fight. I was just hoping to have a better discussion than people just popping in, volunteering an opinion, and leaving. That gets boring really fast.