is megatrons dragon form a transmetal 2 or a cyborg beast?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by redwolfbear, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. tigatron2002

    tigatron2002 Wrecker

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    Angolmois Energy is the life force of unicron, basically the g1 continuity version of dark energon. The quantum surge was a temporal explosion that generated a transwarp wave front that had vok energy mingled with it due to it being caused by a vok construct being destroyed by an exploding transwarp cell
     
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  2. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I think you're a little confused. There is some symbolism given the nature vs. technology theam and finding balance between the two but that's as far as it goes. Not everything is meant to be symbolic. It was meant to be a mystery that they would eventually have definitive answers to not be like it was. That's not symbolism. That's just unfinished rushed story telling.

    And the weird thing is Beast Wars II had the exact same theme but no one takes issue with that series. Maybe because it's Japanese so fewer people know about it or maybe it's because people just hate the idea of Cybertron being Organic... even though G1 even showed it having an organic core but Beast Machines just gets all this injustified hate while other series who did the same thing before Beast Machines get a free pass.

    That's a synopsis... it also doesn't mention that at that time the generals didn't exist yet. Megatron was controlling all the drones. Optimus pointed out that he seemed to be having trouble focusing on four targets at once. That's part of why he lost his temper because though he didn't want to admit it he couldn't attack all four Maximals by himself. Ultimately it was that flaw that lead him to create the generals in the first place. He couldn't split his focus four ways but with the help of Jet storm, Trust, and Tankor he wouldn't have to. The episode ends with their creation. None of this is mentioned in the synopsis though so I guess by your logic it never happened.

    A synopsis is just a short summary of a story not a fully detailed story in itself containing everything that happens. just because it's not in the synopsis doesn't nessicerily mean it didn't happen. That could be used to prove something that did happen in an episode but they're not so good at disproving things that never happened. I occasionally use them just to help jog my memory when I can't remember anything about that episode. Like the G1 episode where Blitz wing kidnapped a football coach, I barely remember that cause I was just recently looking at the episode synopsis... and by the way it didn't mention kidnapping the football coach but that's the main thing I remembered from the episode. The pictures on the wiki page showing the football stadium helped too. It's like the lazy way of rewatching an episode when you don't actually have time to watch the full episode.
     
  3. tigatron2002

    tigatron2002 Wrecker

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    Face it, he’s wrong and he’s probably got me and others that point out his misinformation on ignore, he’s wrong and none of us will change his mind so just stop interacting
     
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  4. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Right it’s a synopsis and in the synapse it usually mentions the important things and had Megatron been reformatted it would’ve been something mentioned

    Also why would they mention the generals if they didn’t exist yet?

    And by the way it does indeed mention that Megatron was controlling the drones Yep I don’t know but I Needa

    It’s a synopsis of the one episode master of the house so why would any of those all the characters and he mentioned if they didn’t exist yet?

    Either way if you want to continue to believe what you want that’s fine there’s just no indication that there was a reformatting in that scene all you saw was a blue bit of a bright red light behind Megatron and Optimus and then Megatron kind of loses control of himself

    Personally I think you need to rewatch the series from the first episode and through because I think you’re just miss remembering a few things from when you watch did years ago
     
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  5. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't exactly call it a plot hole, but yes, the writers messed up. There was never any explanation given as to why Megatron transformed when he got angry in Beast Machines whatsoever. They probably only did it because they needed a way for Optimus to force him into his beast mode to show Megatron was a hypocrite for denouncing beast modes while still having one himself. But he was never reformatted, he was still in his Transmetal 2 body, just somewhat altered by his attempts to remove his beast mode. He never had a techno-organic body like the Maximals, which is why they required an emotional balance to transform.

    I'd also point out they didn't have to use voice commands to transform. We saw them transform in both Beast Wars and Beast Machines with out it.

    I'm not the one making anything up. I quoted the dialog exactly from the episode, but if it'll take posting the clip itself to make you realize that you're wrong here: Here's a link that shows Optimus attempting to reformat Megatron in "End of the Line", from a Shout! ad for the series when they released it on DVD.

    The clip Jetbolt posted earlier is just Megatron transforming to his beast mode in "Master of the House". There is no reformatting in that episode.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018 at 2:06 AM
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  6. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    1. The virus only effected them before they got reformatted. After they got reformatted Megatron's virus was completely useless on them. They still couldn't transform though, at least not right away. My order of events isn't mixed up, you're mixing up two completely different things as being a single event for some reason.

    The virus reverted them to their season 1 beast modes. At that point the activation codes weren't working because of the virus but that's not what I'm talking about.

    What I'm talking about is that after they reformatted they innitally tried their activation codes again which failed. At this point it was because of emotional reasons not the virus. The virus has no effect on them in these forms. The whole point of the reformatting was so they could transform again but they had to learn how to do it by controlling their emotions not just shouting Maximize.

    2. I didn't make this up, it was all clearly explained in the show. Maybe you should watch the show again. Look I've been known to some times remember things out of order so I can't blame you for thinking that but when have I ever just made stuff up that never happened? Remember some details wrong is one thing but making shit up implies something intentional. That isn't consistent with my usual memory issues.

    3. OK

    4. So you agree with me then... at least on this point since you're adding information that supports my claim simply touching the device can't cause a TM2 to form. It has to be activated to work not just held. That part would be more useful to the person who thought Cheetor got mutated just from touching it.

    5. I often cite Cheetor as being the best example for a developing maturing character because he starts out like an immature teenager and eventually grows into someone who can lead the Maximals in Primal's absense but the only time I remember him dreaming was in that episode where his TM2 form first appears. I kinda just assumed he figured out who Tiger hawk was because he was so close to Tigatron not for some supernatural reason.

    6. So then why are there no unintertional conversions in Beast Wars? If what your saying is right this problem started as soon as he fell in the lava with G1 Megatron's spark. So then why was he never angered into beast mode before Beast Machines?
     
  7. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    That’s actually a very good question but it’s got a really simple answer

    Different writing teams we didn’t see the beast wars because it was something they just didn’t think of at the time to do

    The different teams that works on machines I believe took the idea from a small blurb in the TM2Megatron bio And then expanded on it
     
  8. tigatron2002

    tigatron2002 Wrecker

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    Here’s a further logical explanation. In bm he lacked the spark of the original megatron, had fallen through a temporal wormhole without any sort of shielding and performed who know what kinds of experiments on himself. He suffered massive emotional trauma and became even more unbalanced than during beast wars.
     
  9. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Sorry maybe I wasn't clear. My focus is a little split between this and taking care of a kid and this is not the priority. Anyway the generals didn't exist yet during the confrontation with Optimus but they were created at the end of that episode or at least we see Megatron extracting the three sparks he's going to use to make them. The Synopsys should by your logic mention them because without this event they would exist at all. But it makes no mention of anything that happens in the episode that lead to their creation. I'd consider that pretty important and as you seem to think the synopsis includes every import detail. At this point the only part about the generals that shouldn't be mentioned is their names because we don't know that yet... or we do because toys but in fiction their names don't exist yet.

    The last sentence of your first paragraph makes no sense. The Maximals required an emotional balance to transform because Megatron was never reformatted? These are two different subjects. One has nothing to do with the other but you worded it like one caused the other.

    As to the activation codes. They did some times transform as a team where only one person had to say Maximize or Terrorize but that's not the same thing as not using the activation code at all. It's more like overriding another character's code rather than transforming with no command given.

    I'll get back to you on the last part. Haven't tried to open that link yet.
     
  10. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how you're confused by how I worded that sentence, but that's not at all what that sentence says. I was referring to the techno-organic bodies, not Megatron. In other words: Megatron never had a techno-organic body. The Maximals techno-organic bodies was the reason why they had to maintain an emotional balance to transform.

    No, there are plenty of times in the series they didn't say the activation code at all to transform. By the 3rd season of Beast Wars, they hardly ever used it. The same thing happened in Beast Machines with them hardly ever saying "I am transformed" in the second season.
     
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  11. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    Logical
     
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  12. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologize, but like I said before you really need to rewatch the series or at least the episode in question

    The end of the episode showed no such thing, after primal and his team get away and he starts blaming himself for everything thats happens the only thing we see in the far distance is Megatron‘s control center and him laughing can be heard but he’s not seen

    So there’s no reason for The Synopsys to mention anything about them

    And for the record the scene where Megatron grabs the three Sparks is in the next episode fires of the past, and if you look at the synopsis with that episode it mentions him grabbing the three sparks

    So again if there had been a reformatting of megatron in master of the house it would’ve been mentioned in the synopsis does everything else of Important was as well as
     
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  13. GALVATOM

    GALVATOM Well-Known Member

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    1&2 Fair enough, i'm sorry I didn't read your post properly. Point 6 isn't overtly answered but it seems like there's enough in the fiction for us as fans to join dots to rationalist it. We're not saying the problem began as soon as he became the dragon. We don't know to what extent losing the powerful ancient decepticon spark affected him but you could add that on top of all the other self harm he might have done to himself trying to purge his beast mode and you can imagine there might be some negative effects. He was experimenting on himself, experiments can go wrong and have some unpredictable outcomes. It could also be argued that Megatron wasn't out of control, transforming into his dragon form might have just been more like muscle memory from his more hands on battle days. Primal confronting him backed him into a corner so he might have transformed into the dragon mode out of self defense, but this would still anger him, having to stoop so low as to turn into the form he's grown to hate in order to defend himself?
     
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  14. Super4Ever

    Super4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, SaberPrime will never, ever admit that he is wrong. Even with irrefutable proof that he is incorrect. We have the examples as seen in this thread.

    There was a thread about the Golden Disks seen in Beast Machines, where even one of the creators said that they didn’t mean anything. He said that the creator was wrong, not him.

    There was another thread about Optimal Optimus and whether or not he was a Transmetal 2. All marketing materials and information said that OpOp is just a regular Transmetal, and never stated as a Transmetal 2. He said this was all wrong.

    Basically, this guy is in his own little world. Like I said, he either misremembers or purposely chooses to stand by misinformation. It annoys me more than anything when it effects people that are trying to find out information on the Beast Era and this guy presents completely incorrect information as facts.
     
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  15. tigatron2002

    tigatron2002 Wrecker

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    these reasons are exactly why i put him on ignore, he has no idea what he is talking about
     
  16. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    OK that makes more sense now that you explained it that way. Thanks for clearing that up. Also reread the original sentence where I got confused and even I'm not sure how I misinterpreted it so badly. Have I mentioned that everyone in the household is sick right now. I'm not all here at the moment.

    It beast machines they never needed to say it to begin. I think it was mostly just habit for them to say something and slowly phased it out. Beast Wars however I don't recall that ever happening. You can keep saying it all you want but if I don't remember any instance of it happening just saying it did isn't going to do much.

    By the way I did check out that link. Couldn't last night cause my tablet was on low battery and needed to be charged. And you were actually right about Primal reformatting Megatron later in the series. Though that video cuts out before the reformatting was interrupted. I'm just going to assume that part was also right. I must of confused the two scenes.

    That being said there is the possibility another member brought up that he was already techno-organic before the Maximals which would explain away the plot hole of why pissing him off caused him to transform, explain why he looked different, and would also mean that reformating him wouldn't have worked anyway since maybe the Oracle already did. Maybe that's also why it was so difficult to rid himself of his organic components because they're so intertwined with the mechanical that it's hard to even tell the difference anymore.

    I still think you're getting confused hung up on the synopsis. You know what a cliffhanger is and how that works right?

    Optimus Primal during their confrontation points out that Megatron seems to be having trouble focusing on four targets at once. This isn't mentioned in the synopsis but without this Megatron wouldn't have gotten the idea to make the Generals in the first place.

    The episode ends showing the beginning of that process, getting the three sparks he's going to use to make them. That's a cliffhanger cause it leaves us wandering who the sparks belonged to and what he's planning to do with them. It might of been replayed at the beginning of the next episode as well cause they often recap important events from previous episodes that lead into the current one. But outside of that recap the generals were already fully formed in the next episode not just sparks.

    You can't rely so much on synopsis. They're good for some things but not everything. You'd be surprised how common it is for a synopsis to include events in the recap not just the actual episode. Twice Apon a Christmas Synopsis even includes events from over 700 episodes earlier in the synopsis because the episode itself includes a recap with recreated scenes from Tenth Planet. Doesn't mean those Tenth Planet scenes aren't from Tenth Planet.

    You present some interesting ideas here... I can't even come up with a counter argument. Just very well thought out post you have there. Sadly this makes me think you spent more time thinking about this than the writers did. Would be nice if the show was this well thought out.
     
  17. Primeultra

    Primeultra Well-Known Member

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    I think the reason why he looks so different was his early attempts to rid himself of any organic components I think in the end they just filled and kind of scarred him
    I do know what a cliffhanger is and how it works but that’s not the issue here
    you were misremembering the end of that episode the scene where Megatron chooses three Sparks for his generals was in the next episode not the one where we see that he still has a Beast form

    Again as I stated the synapses for the next episode makes that comment about the free will of the targets he’s after being the likely reason they keep getting away from him and his Superior abilities.
    As I said before you are 100% wrong you really need to rewatch the series the end of the episode only shows Megatron‘s command center in a far distance and they laughed are being heard overhead

    The next episode fires of the past is the episode that shows the beginning of the prospect getting three Sparks and choosing them for his generals

    And no it was not any recap

    Please re-watch the episodes Over the lease look up the scripts or the synapses before you continue to argue so much

    I feel the two of us get along really well and have great conversations but many of the debate you have with me and others are all based on the same thing that I feel you should already know by now so please do not take this as an insult
    But by now you should really know thatYou can't rely so much on Your memory of things.

    Here is a link to master of the house
    Beast Machines 1x02 - Master of the House by tracking291 - Dailymotion

    And here’s fires of the past
    Beast Machines 1x03 - Fires of the Past by tracking291 - Dailymotion

    If you can’t watch both episodes at least watch the end of master of the house after it loads you can fast-forward it there

    You’ll see that your memory is off
     
  18. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Well not to be rude, but your memories of events in the series have been way off. If you rewatch the series, you will see that they don't always say the activation code to transform.

    Actually, the video cuts out after the reformatting was interrupted, with Optimus falling to the ground and you see his body just starting to turn into techno-matter.

    The series already explains why Megatron looks different. That's what happened to him as a result of unsuccessfully trying to remove his beast mode. And it's still clearly his Transmetal 2 body, not a techno-organic body which have completely different aesthetics.

    Others have pointed out the toys explain how the Transmetal 2's are "infused with ultra-aggressive tendencies that they must struggle to control". And while we don't really see that in Beast Wars, that could possibly explain where the writers of Beast Machines got the idea of Megatron involuntarily transforming when he got angry.
     
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  19. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know I shouldn't try to rely on my memory so much. It actually kinda helps though in a weird way. Debating a topic, eventually being proven wrong, less likely I'll make the same mistake in the future. I've seen the episodes multiple times so obviously just watching them doesn't help retain any memory of them.

    When I was acting I found writing out my out lines helped me to remember them more than just repeating them over and over again though I did that too. Other people thought it was weird writing out something that was already written out in the original script but it helped me. I went from only being able to remember "Welcome ass" my sophtmore year when we got our first performance assignment and failing because of that to doing a scene from King Lear when I was a senior perfectly. My drama teacher commented that it was the most significant improvement she'd ever seen in a student. I don't think I could do it again now that was years ago but at the time I was pretty proud of myself making it threw that entire monologue.

    That first scene I hadn't really figured out that trick to memorizing yet so those two words were the only ones that stuck... and it was the main reason I picked that part to perform in the first place... that and I got to play drunk. Though having not actually been drunk before that was probably pretty terrible too. I could brobably do it better now if I ever got a second chance to portray that character. I think his name was Sir Toby from Twelfth Night. Being like 15 at the time I just wanted to say ass without getting in trouble for it but now it doesn't have the same appeal. And I've actually been drunk before so I have expererience to draw from.

    Anyway debates like this is like writing out a speech rather than simply speaking the words. At least that's my hope cause if I start having the same exact debate again a month from now it's not working.

    1. Maybe...

    2. OK I know my memory is bad but I literally just watched that video. Now to be fair I was on YouTube and that scene just happen to show up in the recommended section. It looked like it was the same one you linked to so I clicked on it. Maybe it wasn't actually the same video because what I watched was a Shout Factory advertisement for the DVDs that showed a short clip ending before the reformatting was interrupted. It wasn't the complete scene but enough to prove me wrong. Is that not the same video you liked to?

    3. It's clearly a dragon but that doesn't mean it's clearly his TM2 body. As some others have pointed out the wings seem to form around him in robot mode. That isn't part of the control harness but there's no way for that transformation to work which does fit the aesthetic of the techno-organics. Plus TM2 Megatron had a bubble helmet that his tail attached to this would have to be removed for the control harness helmet to fit over his head cause that original helmet was too bulky to be under there. This would leave the Dragon mode without a tail. He clearly still has one so the change in appearance actually can't be explained away by his attempts to remove the beast mode.

    We don't really get a good look at his robot mode under the cloak but if you want to use a toy bio that isn't show accurate I can also compare the toys that aren't show accurate. The dragon head is on the wrong arm, the tail that should be on his head is on the arm where his dragon head should be, the chests are completely different.

    This one is a bit harder to notice but BM Megatron is actually smaller than TM2 and I could go by the toy for this too but there's some evidence in the show to support it as well. Optimus Primal we can clearly see got larger in his Optimal body. Not quite as big as an Autobot but still towering over most other Maximals. We know he got shrunk down again in Beast Machines because Optimal Megatron towered over Primal at the end of the series. TM2 Megatron was about that same size maybe a little shorter but not by much. So if his BMS1 body was his TM2 body he should also be much larger than Primal but he's shrunk down to approximately the same size. How can TM2 Megatron be the same size as both Optimal Optimus and BM Primal if they're not the the same size? This could be explained away if Megatron upscaled his version of the Optimal design in which case all the characters in this series are bigger than I thought they were but that's why I mentioned this last.

    This is basically in order from hardest to explain to easiest. But it's not just a color swap on the dragon mode that's different. His entire transformation has to change in order to still have a tail and have room to put that control harness on. Plus how do orange holy wings turn into a grey solid cloak? You can ignore everything else if you want but at least answer those two things.
     
  20. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    I just went up and clicked on the link directly. It is the same video but maybe the way I worded how that clip ended confused you so let me rephrase. The video cuts out before Tankor enters into the picture. It does look like reformatting is interrupted but it's not clear from that clip what interrupted it. Again I'm assuming the rest of the scene is the way you said so it doesn't really matter at this point. I've already admitted I was wrong so let's not start a new argument about where a clip got cut off. You're just nitpicking at this point.
     

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