Naturally... but presumably we all have our reasons, so there's no reason not to open a debate on the topic. In that spirit, I'll respond to a couple of your points: Yes, but as I pointed out earlier, Blaster didn't turn into a tape deck larger than Devastator, Grimlock wasn't shorter than Starscream, etc... so why insist minibots adhere to their "toy" scale? They were shorter than regular bots (often), but rarely by all that much. Proportions are naturally a part of one's sense of aesthetics. Robot proportions really don't have to adhere to human proportions, and usually don't. I have no problem with TF's being different sizes (I'd insist on it)... however TF's that belong in the same rough size category should probably not be wildly off-scale with each other. So do I. Me too, narrowly. But I want those robot modes to look good together, following a certain overarching aesthetic. I like my minibots to be a bit shorter (mostly) and stockier, I like my Seekers a bit taller, my Dinos and my Leaders a bit bigger still. However, I'd like them also to potentially display nicely in both modes, and to that end, there should be TOO jarring a contrast in alt-mode size. Cars should look roughly like they belong together. Since most of us don't park cars next to fighter jets very often, the error tolerance between jets and cars is more acceptable... a jet needs to be bigger, but as long as the pilot compartments look roughly consistent, I can accept a Deluxe car next to a Voyager jet. Mass shifting is dumb already, but to throw it around gratuitously robs certain characters of the "specialness" of their mass-shifting abilities. Soundwave, Megatron, the tapes, the Insecticons (officially, although the cartoon didn't portray them quite right)... their ability to shift size makes them stand out. It's something they do that others don't do. But then, when you look at Cliffjumper and Hound next to each other in vehicle mode in that first episode of the cartoon, there doesn't seem to be much mass shifting happening there anyway... which is why Cliffjumper looks like a go-kart. It always felt wrong to me. It felt wrong in 1984 and it feels wrong now. The comment you're responding to above was relating to the Marvel Comics, not the Cartoon. We all know size was f***ed on the cartoon. The comics at least got it right MUCH of the time. And of course, by "right" I mean pretty close to an accurate sense of scale... something that occupies an acceptable compromise between rampant mass-shifting, and rigid conservation of mass. You mean, consistently inconsistent, of course. The "larger size" on the cartoon was when they showed Minibots as being AS TALL as regular bots... which happened often. I don't mind if they're a little bit shorter, but I'd draw the line at half the size. If we want a sense how big they were supposed to be, we'd need to consult the series official size chart, and count anything that deviated from it (in either direction) as an error, I guess. Chimungmung sells Conversion Metals KO Binaltechs... they're actually pretty nice as far as KO toys go. Nice quality for the price http://chimungmung.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=78 http://chimungmung.com/images/bt_rx-8a.jpg Yes, but there is a degree of "wiggle room" to consider... not to mention the fact that Deluxes and Scouts have varied considerably in both their size and scale. For "car bots" I'd prefer a binary more closely resembling "Deluxes and Short Deluxes"... much like what we have with most Classics cars, as compared to Classics Bumblebee. Guys like Huffer can work, since his alt-mode is simplified enough as to represent smaller work-trucks (we know he's NOT a big rig of any kind, due to his only having 2 axles), and much of his robot mode bulk is contained in his cab/hood section. It gets tougher with guys like Seaspray, Powerglide and Warpath though... zmog
This figure is pretty bad ass, If Hasbro has any issues with this figure maybe they should try to make similar type figures. The crap they've been putting out sucks, now all these 3rd party companies are kicking their asses.
You think? I think they Seekers look great at around the same size as Prime, and iGear's Faith Leader looks perfect with the '84/'85 Classics/Henkei 'bots, so... Depends what Prime you use, I guess. Oh, I didn't want to start a debate - just to give my own personal reasons for liking them and thinking that they look "right". For the record, I like all your reasons as well. I certainly wouldn't be nerd-raging all over the place if all we had were Classics BB-sized "Minibots" either. As you say, they were sized that way enough of the time in the old cartoon for it to look right to me. But given a choice, I have a soft spot for the little guys, I guess. It occurs to me that should have put one other reason why I think I'll prefer the smaller size: 7. iGear's only charging $15 shipped for them. Not sure what Cliffy here will cost, but assuming it's Deluxe sized, I'm guessing somewhere around $80? It will almost certainly be smaller than the Medical and Weapons Specialists, and looks to include less gear... though I'm wondering if those other heads in the pic will be included as well, so we can upgrade our Classics/Henkei Autobots...
I agree with this, actually. Faith Leader IS my "Classics" Prime. He suits my Classics cars perfectly, and I wish I did have a nice assortment of Seekers that matched him (roughly). That is to say, matched but do not exceed him. The MP Seekers are a bit too big IMHO, even if they are pretty close to a "true" scale with those figures. Classics Prime really is too small (Megs too)... at the time it was nice to get an old G1-style Prime again, but I was never really satisfied with him. No, I didn't mean it that way. I never meant to imply that debate or disagreement was a BAD thing. Arguing our respective points of view is really just a way of expressing and sharing our opinions. Giving your "personal opinion" is really no different than disagreeing with someone else with another opinion. Debate is really no different than discussing (and as such, gaining more insight). I don't see arguing as inherently hostile (though depending on some people, it can also go that way)... but it can be educational, and sometimes even fun. Haha! That IS a pretty good reason... though for me, the size is a counterweight. Sure it's a cheap little figure, and they look nice, but then, once I have it, will it feel "right" in my collection, or superfluous... a place-holder until I find a "proper" Huffer? I like neat little toys in various forms, but at the same time, I also like them to "fit" on the shelf together. It's a quirk, but there it is. I suspect those extra heads are just a preview of coming retoolings of this mold, but I'll bet you're right about the size and pricing. $80 might be a bit too much for what is basically a Deluxe for me. I really like what Igear's doing, but lamentably my price range is about half what they're charging for these guys (I got my Faith Leader for about $80, and that was a stretch for me). I have hovered over the preorder button for their Ironhide a few times... but there are just too many unknowns at this point, and although I think he's a decent size for my G1 collection (taller than a car, smaller than Faith Leader), it's still too early to say whether the quality will justify the price tag. zmog
You know, I had to go and check this again to make sure - they're pretty much the same height. Sure, the Seekers are a bit taller overall, because of the jet intakes on their shoulders, but they stand the same at the shoulder. Hehe, I love that this has become a full on scale discussion now. Totally agree! In fact, because of this discussion, I think you've got me rethinking some of my thoughts on some of the Minibots, particularly Powerglide... Really thinking about picking up that Xtransbots version coming out... I think that's PROBABLY what it is also, since they've stated they want to do all the '84 characters. I guess we'll see though.
Yeah, they really are very close in size, but with all the extra kibble and bulk, the Seekers come off looking a lot more imposing than Faith Leader's relatively compact design. In that sense, I find the Seekers feel just a bit too big (though to play the scale game, I wonder if Dr. Archeville matches FL's truck mode scale?). Also interesting that they end up being so close to the same size, considering that Faith Leader isn't really any bigger than Classics Prime in truck mode. The way MP Seekers and Faith Leader expand and contract from 2 very different vehicle sizes is impressive. But robot scale-wise, I have a feeling that the new MP Prime coming from Takara (and hopefully to be released by Hasbro) will probably fit slightly better. Is that the upscaled version that's about deluxe sized? Or the original smaller one? Or you could just go for the tiny Cyberverse Powerglide. I really like this idea, but I have a feeling that my hair will be gray by the time I see it come to completion. zmog
Yeah, I wouldn't mind the MP-10 version with the Seekers, but then you've got Grimlock... Better for Prime to fit in with Grimlock than Decepticons, imo anyway, as they'll be displayed together. Rodimus Prime throws a wrench in my plans but I don't think I absolutely need Rodimus... maybe if a smaller third party version comes along, or I decide to get MP-10 down the road. The upsized one. I would still buy the iGear one too, though. Something about that Maketoys version doesn't look right to me... Yeah, probably. Which is why I'm fine with (most of) the Classics and Henkei Autobots for now. I only just started recollecting TFs after a long hiatus (I think it was around when Greenscream came out and I realized I would never get a Subaru Alt Prowl) and have already managed to get most of the ones I need - all I'm missing now are Henkei Smokescreen, Bluestreak and Universe Sideswipe. Coming in at a good time with this iGear stuff. I've already got Ironhide and Ratchet preordered, along with the Minibots. I'm actually not to fussed about Cliffjumper's size, at this point - whether he ends up being a smallish deluxe or more Minibot-sized, I will probably preorder him the moment it becomes available! I do hope they rework the chest somehow, though, if they're going for G1 accuracy. It's not a deal-breaker, by any means, but it doesn't look completely right either...
Re: Archeville... yes. He is roughly the correct size for Faith Leader's cab. Augmenting your classics with Faith Leader and MP-sized seekers is the shit. I am not a fan of Classics Prime or Seekers, both too small. Faith Leader is extra awesome because he still looks good next to City Cammander and Protector in Alt Mode despite being noticably bigger in bot mode. There are some big problems with this, though- ANY Megatron or Soundwave, the Classics Triple Changers, FP Bruticus and FP Superion off the top of my head all get thrown out of whack with this plan.. but Superion and Bruticus are nightmares of scale anyway. iGear Horror Monarch and Fanstoys Soundwave would solve the major part of this if they're ever released, but who knows when that'll happen. For Season 3+ it gets a lot tougher since practically ALL the decepticons would be huge given their alt modes (and no huge Scourge or Cyclonus exists).. but you can fudge that a bit since most of them are "cybertronian" and therefore don't necessarily need to accomodate human-sized pilots. My minibots (of which I do not consider bumblebee and cliffjumper a part) are scaled to a scout-sized car in alt mode and let the chips fall where they may for bot mode. That means Seaspray, Powerglide and Warpath (and arguably cosmos) are bigger. Fortunately, those toys exist. Ideally Huffer and Brawn would be a big bigger as well, but I'll survive with PCC Huffer and HFTD Firetrap despite being a tad small.
He seems a bit small for that, imo. I'd have to check though. I think we can be reasonably certain that we're getting a new MP Megatron from TakaraTomy, though, and that he'll be more or less the same size as MP-11. That might work with Faith Leader as well, if you don't mind Megatron standing a bit taller than Prime (which I don't). He's often enough drawn larger than the Seekers in the old cartoon, at any rate. If we get an MP Galvatron I imagine it'll become more likely that we'll see Cyclonus and Scourge... if not officially than from a third party. I can see Cliffjumper, but why Bumblebee? Isn't he supposed to be "the smallest"? (At least in Season 1, he is.)
I don't mind if Grimlock and Prime are the same size, or if Grimlock's bigger (heck, G1 toy Grimlock was smaller than Optimus!) I feel like the new MP figures (seekers, Rodimus, new Prime, Grimlock) will probably all be pretty good side-by-side) If Hasbro releases MP-10, I think I'll have to get one, although he and Faith Leader pretty much would serve the same purpose in my collection. Again, I'll mention the Chinese KO "Conversion Metals" line. They have versions of the Subaru in a Japanese police deco. The quality's pretty good (close, if still inferior to official Binaltechs) and the metal content is the same... for a fraction of the price! For mine, I transplanted Alt Prowl's head to give him a better G1 look. I suspect he'll probably be a large-ish deluxe actually... like a head shorter than the Ironhide/Ratchet vans. We'll see, I guess. I agree about the Classics versions... both too small for my collection shelf. Faith Leader feels perfect for me, though MP Seekers still seem a bit too titanic. For the time being, you're right... but there are other options if you open yourself up to kitbashing or KO figures. The KO oversized G1 Soundwave is a great match for that scale, and is a fantastic figure for the price. With only a few small mods, you can give him improved articulation, though he'll still be a G1 tape player. Also, a modified Crossovers Captain America makes a pretty good Soundwave to stand next to Faith Leader. There's also a rather poor quality overized version of Classics Deluxe Megatron that is a perfect size for Faith Leader... but he looks a bit ghetto because his materials are so cheap. But I agree... in terms of Hasbro or the major 3rd party projects, we're lacking Soundwave and Megatron in that scale... for now. The question is, if HasTak brings us a new MP Megatron, will he be a gun or will he be a G2 Megatron? (I'm kind of hoping for a G2 version, myself) zmog
Yeah, I think you're right. I might end up getting MP-10 too, down the road. We'll see. Argh, you're killing me! Might have to pick this up... What makes you think this? All the "insider hints" seem to point at G1 only for the MP line...
About MP Megs. What we learned from insiders is that he originally was not on the list to get made. The incredible responce to MP 10 made Megatron a sure go. It was alsohinted that he will be a gun. He will have much better legs and a head. Basically all the issues from MP05 will be addressed and if I am not mistaken he will be in the new smaller MP size class to fit with the rest.
Just a hunch. These van-bots are the same height as Classics Prime, and if Igear is going to the trouble to render Cliffjumper realistically in his true, original Porche alt-mode, then I figure they'll probably be wanting to keep the relative scales of their new G1-inspired PP line mostly consistent. At a guess, a chunky deluxe would probably match the van-bots pretty well, while still being a head or two shorter. Of course, Faith Leader and the Seekers will still be a bit off... I think the new smaller MP size is a given. It's too bad about the gun mode, since I'd kind of like to see them take a shot at the G2 tank design... though I admit, the previous MP Megatron could definitely benefit from some creative revision. zmog
I also think they're going for a more uniform scale - at least, I'm pretty sure that's what I read, anyway. I'm sure it was here, but I can't remember who said it... maybe fabexmax? Anyway, I read that as being more in scale in robot mode. Maybe an assumption on my part, but as you say, they created Faith Leader to be more in scale with MP Grimlock and the Seekers. And maybe it's just me, but it can't be a coincidence that Faith Leader and the van-bots scale so nicely with the Classics/Henkei Autobots, either. It'd look really odd for Cliffjumper to be the same size as, say, Sunstreaker. My guess is that he'll be more or less the same size as Classics BB/Cliffjumper.
Well, it's NOT a coincidence. If you look at a lot of the promotional images of Faith Leader from when he was released, you see him posed in Ark-style dioramas with Classics Deluxe bots, and shaking hands with MP Grimock... so they were really promoting the way he scales with those other Hasbro bots. However, I can't help feeling that this Ironhide/Ratchet pair are a bit too big to fit that way. I keep standing my Classics Prime next to the deluxes and trying to imagine how the Vans would fit in, and they seem a little large. Not that anybody really cares about this anymore, but have you ever seen one of those old Vanettes? They're TINY... a true "mini-van". Ironhide and Ratchet really wouldn't be all that big. Interesting that you mention Sunstreaker in that context... since Cliffjumper and Sunstreaker have pretty much the exact same transformation scheme (Wheeljack too). If you were going for a "real world" scale, all three of those guys probably would be very close to the same size. If Igear is feeling creative, they could potentially even play with the idea of using extensive remolds of the Cliffjumper mold to do Sunstreaker and Wheeljack. Also, not that it really has anything to do with scale, but just because I'm a stats-nerd... here's a fun fact: Huffer, Prowl, Sideswipe, Wheeljack, Ironhide, Trailbreaker and the '84 Seekers all have the same Strength rating. I don't mind if this Cliffjumper is more of a small Deluxe. I'd still be interested, especially if that meant a lower price... but I have a feeling they might go larger. zmog
I did check. He might be a tad small, I didn't get out a ruler or anything, but it's more or less perfect. I agree, but right now I've just got MP-5 (with the Seekers/Coneheads) and United Megatron (with all the other S1/2 Decepticons) standing on separate shelves wishing there was a happy medium. I could fudge the insecticons (FP), constructicons (TFC), Recordicons and Reflector (PE) onto either shelf, but Soundwave and Megs are the problems, and I can't cover a shelf with "later," especially given 3rd party and Masterpiece timeframes. Oh jesus I hope not. Then I'd have to buy them. And two more scourges as "sweeps". Just because the Minibots were generally considered B-players and Bee and Cliff were in practically every Season 1 and 2 Episode, so I'd much rather have Bee look correct next to, say, Hound or Prime than Windcharger or Gears. I consider them as having been "promoted." Would I buy an awesome scout-sized Bumblebee? Very probably, but I'd feel conflicted about it. Fortunately (for me) that toy doesn't exist. I still want my Bumblebee to be a very short Deluxe in bot-mode, I just prefer him to look "right" next to the deluxes in alt-mode. Although still quite small, since he's a compact car. I realize that this (actually everything I've discussed) is sort of a specific issue with my collection, though. I realize other people don't feel the same way. I would probably just ditch all my scout-minibots and get deluxes if they were available, but with my current manner of thinking, the only ones missing are Gears (who would be a scout) and Cosmos (who can really be any size, but I'm hoping for a Deluxe or Voyager). Well, there's a legends Cosmos, but like Legends Wheelie, I don't like it enough to pay what people want for it.
Now that Brawn and Cosmos have coloured proto's, Ironhide and Ratchet are due to be out in the next month we need more news on this guy. Come on iGear, hit us with some coloured protos!
