If you kill a combiner does the rest of the member die too?

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by General Magnus, May 26, 2010.

  1. General Magnus

    General Magnus Da Custodes of the Emprah

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    It´s a question I had for some time, if you kill Defensor, Preddking or another combiner, will the other menbers survive or die?
     
  2. bignick1693

    bignick1693 Maximal

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    hmmm i will say no. they wont die. just fall apart.
     
  3. MACRAPTRON

    MACRAPTRON Well-Known Member

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    There must be a mechanism that make them split on critical damage. At least we see that all the time in G1.

    Or maybe they all die since their neural circuits are all connected. I dunno.
     
  4. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Like, if you killed the centre member? The other members would probably disengage. They'd likely be physically alive, but they might undergo a huge amount of mental trauma, though I would assume that there would be safeguards against something like that in the design, as it would make sense not to want to risk the lives of all combiner members if one is damaged/destroyed.
     
  5. Mykamusprime

    Mykamusprime Well-Known Member

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    I say no as long as the separate units are alive, you cannot kill the combined form. Devastator for example, will keep merging until you kill the constructicons. Wait! Unless all their sparks combine when merged into one big spark! Crap, I don't know now!!!
     
  6. Wheeljack_Prime

    Wheeljack_Prime Don't eat me

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    For the scramble city ones, I imagine killing the combiner would at least killer the team leaders.
     
  7. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    I'm with this explanation.

    I'm not sure how you kill a Combiner, and not the components, short of damaging some crucial interface or circuit matrix that actually makes the linkage and mind-fusion possible. But then, from a writing perspective, you could always repair/replace something like that...

    On the other hand, if you kill one component of the Combiner, hypothetically, this kills the Combiner, since a sizable portion of it's psyche will be forever cut off. Replacing the member would result in a new identity, or at least a much different one, I would imagine.

    zmog
     
  8. Ikkstakk

    Ikkstakk Well-Known Member

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    It depends on whether you think a combiner has a Spark or not. It probably also depends on how the combiner is killed.

    Scenario #1: Devastator has a unique Spark that resides in Hook's body in an inert state when the Constructicons aren't merged. It comes online during the merging. Someone kills Devastator (extinguishes his Spark). The Constructicons survive, maybe even retain their ability to merge, but "Devastator" is now the world's largest paperweight.

    Scenario #2: Devastator's Spark is a combination of the six Sparks of all six Constructicons. Someone kills Devastator (extinguishes his Spark). The Sparks of all six Constructicons are extinguished with it and they are all dead, even if their bodies suffer no damage in the killing strike.

    Scenario #3: The nature of Devastator's Spark is immaterial because he's killed by a force so powerful that his body is atomized. Devastator, the Constructicons, and any and all Sparks are extinguished. Everyone dies.

    I think most combiners are portrayed as if their minds are amalgams of the minds that comprise them. Menasor's competence is compromised because all of the Stunticons hate Motormaster, and that causes Menasor to be self-loathing. I seem to recall reading that Silverbolt's fear of heights impairs Superion's effectiveness. Starscream took five Sparks (or whatever) from the mental prison, not six, suggesting that Bruticus doesn't have a unique Spark. So in my opinion, if you manage to kill a combiner, you take out every member of the team. That's why combiners are so dang hard to kill.
     
  9. Mykamusprime

    Mykamusprime Well-Known Member

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    I'm gonna go with this^ They're an advanced race of beings, i'm sure they have some kind of safeguard against that to ensure survival.
     
  10. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    I don't think Combiners have "Sparks". They are composite beings... they cannot exist separate from their components.

    Now do the 5 or 6 components "fuse" their Sparks into one? Hard to say since the notion of Combining has been around a lot longer than the idea of "Sparks".

    I've always taken it to mean that the components link their systems in a way that creates a temporary neural net, a new "brain" as it were, that is made up of all the components at once. However, I don't think that this "brain" resides in the Combiner's head. I don't think each part contributes a physical chip or circuit, which are then ferried by tiny elevators up to the head. It's more like each connection point forms a nerve cluster that feeds data an cognition back to the central core. Effectively the entire Combiner becomes one big brain.

    Meanwhile, the "Sparks" or souls, or whatever... are all still safely housed in each of the components. There are still 5 (or however many) Sparks there in that body.

    Blow up a Combiner's head, and you may force a disengagement. You may even kill the core bot who forms the head area. But the other component bots are fine, if maybe a little shocked, both physically and psychologically.

    zmog
     
  11. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    What about a situation where damage is done that would be lethal to one member, but not the whole construct? Say scavenger taking a particle beam and being blown to shreds. Does Devastator trudge along without an arm? Does he disengage? Does scavenger survive somehow with his consciousness split between the remaining members?

    I don't think the idea of HOW the consciousnesses and sparks of a combiner merge has really been focused on in the fiction. I always figured it was a link, but not a true blending of lives, if only to protect each individual from the damage another team member would take.
     
  12. Evil Porkchop

    Evil Porkchop Pork, the evil white meat

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    If it was an arm or even a leg component being destroyed I would say the combiner could still function to some degree. Defensor functioned without First-Aid in S3... even though I know alot of people don't like to use the cartoon as an example of anything.
     
  13. chrisr291

    chrisr291 Master of the Unknown

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    Not that the G1 cartoon is great for examples but didn't Swindle operate just fine after the other Combaticons died and became that weird BOT creature at the end of season 2?
     
  14. RedWolf

    RedWolf Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's Swindle he'd sell his own proto-sitter.

    For that matter Defensor managed to combine without First Aid.
     
  15. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Which raises the issue of combiners merging with less than a full team. For obvious reasons, certain bots have to be present (like the core body), but if Defensor merges without First Aid, is he an incomplete, semi-retarded Defensor? Is he missing a key element of his persona that makes him whole? The Marvel bios would suggest yes, since the mind of each Super Warrior is true combination of the various contributors.

    On the other hand, the Japanese portrayal shows a much more versatile, dynamic approach to combining. The components can pop off at will, recombine and even swap as needed.

    zmog
     
  16. Murasame

    Murasame CHIMICHANGAS

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    It is stated the minds of the combiner team members are merged, so I would guess the members should die all, if you kill the combiner. But on the show it is always shown, that they simply disconnect if they get critical damage. But on the other hand, on the show no one really ever dies except for Starscream (getting his new body destroyed again) and Prime again... But mostly no one really dies. Only in the movie. So we cannot be quiet sure.
     
  17. Evil Porkchop

    Evil Porkchop Pork, the evil white meat

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    Lets be fair to the show though, no one ever really dies in the comics either.
     
  18. RedWolf

    RedWolf Well-Known Member

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    Simon Furman
     
  19. GigatronSama

    GigatronSama Mr. Insomnia Veteran

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    There doesn't seem to be one unified combiner technology throughout G1 much less the entire mythos.

    Devestator was very clearly six individuals who happen to combine. Devestator himself was so slow and plodding because he had six individual minds who seemed to have to agree on everything to keep the body moving.

    The later "Scramble" style bots all seemed to have either new personalities that came online, or were controlled entirely by the leaders in combined form.

    Some the combiners such as in Operation Combination and Energon did it reverse style, with the combiner being one robot who happened to be able to split its body into five components.

    In the scenario of Devestator, I think he'd just fall apart and any bots not critically injured would keep going. Devs fell apart all the time in the G1 cartoon so likely you'd have to atomize the whole thing to kill him while he's devestator, otherwise you're just killing individual bots.

    I'd say the same goes for most of the later bots, such as the mention of Defensor forming without First Aid. The combinor might be unusable but the component bots not severely damaged would keep going.

    Those bots that do it reverse style as I mentioned before, probably WOULD die if the core bot dies. Clearly shown in Energon. If the core bot dies, they all die (Though the limbs continue to be mindless drones apparently.)

    For Operation Combination, I think killing a limb bot wouldn't be fatal but quite painful for the core bot, like having an arm chopped off.

    The comics get weirder, since they have bios clearly stating that combiner forms have a separate personality. Removing their ability to combine would effectively kill the combiner.

    There was Zone in which a few combiners were killed while combined, though all but one were utterly destroyed. In the case of Predaking, only the center portion was destroyed. Though the whole thing immediately exploded rendering the question moot. Though there is some indication that they might not have had the ability to separate at that point being complete fused beings.
     
  20. Evil Porkchop

    Evil Porkchop Pork, the evil white meat

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    Hmmm... What is one the most over rated comic writers.
     

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