I honestly find Transformers (2007) to be an objectively better movie than Transformers (1986)

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Seth Sunthay, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. Seth Sunthay

    Seth Sunthay ElusoryMonk

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    Just a short thought.

    I know some of you (a really great amount of people) find the original TF: The movie to be good or at least "better" than the new ones (well, i accept that if you talk about ROTF-TLK), and somes find it "insulting" or "unnacceptable" that the critics received the 2007 film better than the original movie.


    But, that's wrong at all?.


    Personally, I DO LOVE the original movie, it has some addictive and nostalgic soundtrack (one of the most memorable of the cartoons in its time), i love some sequences amd the execution of overrall, the production, etc, it should stay as one the most important element of this franchise, be good or not, but, even some time ago, i just find it very un-organic unlike the one from the 2007, some events just happen because they need to happen, and they gave us one deux ex machina ending (wich i totally love its emotion).

    And if we talk about soundtrack, jablonsky, it's just...on another level, the atmosphere overrall of the movie, you can take it seriosuly (obviously it had its flaws in the ruthm and some not funny elements) through most of the it.

    The story it's simple, but they actually took their time to explain some important elements for the movie, while as the TF: The Movie, it's also a simple story, but, most of the important elements just happens without some clean explanation, like what was exactly unicron and his ambitions, why he exactly was THE enemy to cybertron, why they did not fixed optimus as ultra magnus after the war (because you need to admit, he just blew up in single pieces yet optimus just got internal damage), why the matrix made unicron to explode?, i know it was a story made to be a promo for the next generation of transformers, but overrall, it is really better?.

    What do you think?.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  2. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    Not to sound biased to anyone else, but I do agree 2007 was better than 1986.

    Believe it or not, the 2007 movie is one of the first movies that got me interested with movies in general.
     
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  3. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest, I could sit through 2007 3 times in a day before I can sit through TF:TM. I bought the 20th Anniversary DVD and the Blu-ray/Digital combo pack as collector's items and the movie has some value to me, but as a movie, period? No, it's a tough watch.

    It gets kind of boring at spots, or I lose focus, thus making it unpleasant.

    The animation has ridiculous errors. (They have a charm and are widely known among the fandom, but come on...)

    It was honestly needless in pretty much everything. (It was too loud, the colors too garish and the cast was killed off for no good reason. And selling toys, ain't it. They even realized their mistake, so that should tell you something.)

    That said, 2007 has way too many incredibly STUPID moments that just aren't at all necessary. Sure, they made us laugh at the time, mainly because they were shocking and so overtly stupid, but they're completely useless. (Sam's happy time and "I ate the whole plate!" as well as Bumblebee taking a piss, to name a few...)

    The shaky cam.

    The dialogue.

    The dark violence.

    The convoluted story about eBay, a pair of glasses and a cube. How in the world do you make 2.5 hour movie out of that?! 60 minutes, at best.

    The runtimes. Ugh. The worst. TF:TM at least wins there.

    In general, yes, as a movie 2007 is better than 1986.
    As family entertainment (which is what Transformers was from the beginning) 1986 is better by leaps and bounds. Even with heroes dying and a couple of swear words.
     
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  4. jmickey

    jmickey Member

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    I also like the 2007 movie better. Plot wise, there were so many things wrong with 86 film. Some of the moments were fantastic, such as Optimus's last stand, unicorn reformatting the deceptions, and starscream getting blasted, but so many parts were just terrible. Hasbro was so stupid to think they needed to kill all those characters when they could have just stopped selling the toys and only sold the new ones. And they took the coolest car ever, and turn him into a Winnebago when you literally had a great replacement for prime in Magnus. They could have started him as Delta magnus and transformed him into Ultra magnus or magnus prime. And they ruined the Seekers crew. But the soundtrack was great. So much so that I took it and overlayed it on the 2007 movie. The intro plays over the first scene when prime is talking, u got the touch plays when optimus arrives to fight megatron, and I got a couple more scattered in the movie. I could watch it over and over. It has flaws, but overall it was coherent, funny, and had awesome visuals.
     
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  5. Gordon_4

    Gordon_4 The Big Engine

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    Well, if nothing else, TF86 is a movie ABOUT the Transformers. Their stakes, their victories and their losses. Is it dramatically well put together? Outside of one or two scenes, fuck no. Its soundtrack is a who’s nobody of hair metal and 80s pop, but fuck if there ain't some catchy tunes. Its a little too eager to kill off the old guard and replace them with........some dudes, though it at least gives the Decepticons some teeth into the bargain.

    The score is actually the part of the film that I think holds up nicely: Vince DiCola may not have been John Williams but he's hardly some hack they found doing sax riffs for blue movies.
     
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  6. Imperator

    Imperator Combiner limb

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    What? I didn't think there was even debate about this.

    TF (2007) is a better movie than TF (1986). Of course it is. For all his many... oh god so many... faults, Michael Bay does know how to make a movie. TF (1986) is an incoherent ramble through a hastily jotted down version of a hero's journey.

    That doesn't mean however that TF (2007) is a more enjoyable movie. It really, really isn't. It's ugly, leery, pornographicly-shot and unpleasant - and of course the sequels were even worse for that. I'd far rather watch 1986 every time, but it's still a bad movie.

    Which is a rather ass-backwards way for me to say: It's okay to enjoy things you know aren't very good deep down.
     
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  7. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    I’d love to see the ‘86 film reanimated
     
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  8. Lex79

    Lex79 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The 2007 movie might be a better overall movie (heck, 21 years more recent, different target, way higher budget...), but it's not a better Transformers movie.
     
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  9. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    The 80's movie has the same problem that the Serenity movie would make later on. You pretty much have to watch the Transformer cartoon series before watching the 80's movie and you pretty much have to watch Firefly before watching Serenity. They aren't movies where you can introduce someone to the franchise so they don't actually work as a stand alone film.

    But as to which one I enjoy more I've got to go with the cartoon movie. For one thing it's shorter so while both films have their bad and both films have their boring, at least the cartoon movie is less of a slog. There is just something more appealing about how the cartoon movie seemed to embrace the madness while the live action movie tried a little too hard to be all serious and adult. I don't know sometimes I just love the absurdity and when that 80's metal is blasting out on the better animated parts of the cartoon movie it's just cranking the madness up to 11 and breaking off the knob. Plus Dinobots vs Devastator is something you lived for as a kid while I've been sadly disappointed with both live action Dinobots and Devastator.

    As technology has changed I've updated my copy of the 80's movie to whatever the new technology is. But I don't own a copy of any of the live action movies even when there have been some really good discounts on the disks.
     
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  10. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

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    The 2007 movie is undoubtedly about the Transformers, as well. It's all about introducing them, establishing their war, their dynamic, and the "robots in disguise" aspect. It's the only Bay movie where they actually feel like the focus even when they're not on screen. The film works from a human's perspective because we're being introduced to the alien nature of the TFs, verses sequels where the amount of human focus feels unnecessary. The movie is about us discovering the TFs, which wouldn't work from their perspective.

    There's a reason TF07 is still so beloved, and why minor characters like Jazz and Barricade have more of a following than Hound or Crosshairs. Because while the TFs actual time was minimal, it felt far more substantial and important to the movie than the often canned, non-sequitur dialogue of the later sequels. Hound may talk more than Ironhide, but Ironhide feels far more like a real character who's simply not the focus. The robots have real conversations that convey information to the audience and don't just fill up dead air like in TLK.

    The 86 movie, despite the time devoted to the TFs, doesn't really characterize or develop them a heck of a lot besides Hot Rod. Springer, Scourge, Cyclonus, Arcee, Magnus, etc, these characters are all flat with paltry amounts of dialogue. Not to mention the near total lack of exposure to the existing TF cast besides them just getting slaughtered unceremoniously. Daniel has more of an arc than most of the TFs.
     
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  11. Autobot Burnout

    Autobot Burnout Anthony Hopkins with a submachine gun. 'Nuff said!

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    Personally, I don't think it's necessarily fair to compare the two films on a point-by-point basis simply because the only things the two really have in common are character design motifs and the fact they're from the same long-running franchise. Objectively, yes, the 2007 film is more a solid film than the original, but it sure as hell is not flawless and has the advantage of "introducing" Transformers to Earth and being able to play off how humans react to both alien robot invaders as well as "sentient vehicles" ala 'Satan's Camaro'. TF86 not only has a time jump to the then-future of 2005 but beyond the famous opening battle, the film itself really isn't that much about Autobots vs Decepticons.

    In TF86, you have the big battle of Autobot City which is extremely dark compared to anything from the franchise before it, with Autobots dying left and right, their corpses being shown lifeless, and ultimately even Optimus Prime succumbs to his wounds. Except after that, the film tends to vary wildly in its tone, between two extremes of being a big-budget saturday morning cartoon (the "petrorabbits" bit with Grimlock, the existence of Wheelie in the context of the film) and something grittier than normal for the series (the show trials of the Quintessons, Ultra Magnus getting drawn and quartered). But when the film hits its high points, it really hits the high points - the entire sequence on the planet of Junk when the Autobots arive is probably the best part of the whole film, given you have a unique enemy who won't say down, are their own mode of transportation, an epic fight sequence set to the perfect Junkion theme song (Weird Al's Dare to be Stupid, which is just a bunch of 80's TV commercial references put into song, much like how Junkions only speak in TV jargon fragments stitched together), then Rodmus comes in and gets the Universal Greeting to work, and then everybody just spontaneously breaks out into a dance party while the song is still going. It's gloriously cartoony and 80s that there really isn't anything else like it. I would go so far as to say that TF86 is like two films glued together trying to do different things - the first portion is the battle of Autobot City, filling Hasbro's mandates about killing all the old dudes to make way for the new ones, while the rest of the film is the actual intended movie. Plus, this was one of the first real cartoon to movie adaptions and at the time, the cartoon was seen more as just a wildly successful marketing tool and not something that needed to actually be capable of standing on its own.

    TF2007 of course is the opposite, being primarily intended as a film from the get-go. And to that end it works much better - while the tone does shift jarringly, it really is more for the jokes than anything, and the film then goes right back to being mainly serious for the most part. Unfortunately, the problem there being the worst jokes being when Sam is involved, because those really seem a bit forced at times, whereas the whole Call Center joke woven throughout the Skorponok battle works because A) we're all familiar with those kinds of situations and B) it actually breaks up how one sided the whole battle actually is with Scorponok laying waste to everything and Lennox's team relatively powerless to fight back. With the hacker subplot, the guy being extremely eccentric really serves more as a counterpoint to the girl being relatively collected for her presence in the film (and since it got brought up, the donut plate thing really was meant more to prepare the follow up of the hacker guy acting like he was super calm...only to immediately freak out the second the folder hit the table). Then, when the three plots converge into one as they all go to Hoover Dam, the jokes slow down and become more subtle (they did have to explain the joke about Simmons thinking Nokia is Japanese, amusingly because like Simmons, most people don't know Nokia isn't Japanese) as the tension and action begin to rise. Overall, while TF2007 isn't perfect, it does actually have a story to tell and it does it rather well for a human perspective film entry in the franchise...even if the intended main story of "boy and his car" is the weakest part of the film's first half.
     
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  12. TheSoundwave

    TheSoundwave Hooked on a Feeling!

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    I have to agree that the '07 film is better, I've always found the '86 movie more weird than anything.

    It's kind of strange that they chose to set their first full length Transformers movie in space, because it kind of loses the disguise aspect (which is right in the theme song that plays during the movie). It seems like it would have made more sense to make an Earth-based story that plays up the disguise aspect as a way to introduce the brand to the general public.

    Also, I never really liked the Hot Rod/Rodimus character. I don't have a problem with killing Optimus and passing the torch to a new leader, but I never really thought it was handled well. Hod Rod was barely established before Optimus dies. If they want to use the Hot Rod character, I feel like they should have killed Optimus towards the end, so by then we've had plenty of time to get to know Hot Rod. If the movie had passed the torch to an established character like Bumblebee (which usually happens in modern TF media...I'd argue for good reason) I don't think fans would have been as upset about Optimus dying. It's just that the new leader comes out of nowhere.

    That's not to say the '86 movie is terrible. I do enjoy it, and I have to give it points for being weird and creative (not to mention the great soundtrack). I just think there are a lot of missed opportunities and ideas that could have been fleshed out more. Overall I think the 2007 film knew what it was trying to be, and is a better starting place for a Transformers movie.
     
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  13. Lex79

    Lex79 Well-Known Member

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    That's because the film was primarily made to introduce new toys that had a sci fi theme to kids.
     
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  14. DOTM Bumblebee

    DOTM Bumblebee I must be some kind of nut...

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    I was actually thinking this just the other day.

    For the awkward humor and characters bordering on the edge of stereotypes, the first live-action Transformers film remains objectively the best. It takes time to introduce the human characters, and it builds up the Transformers nicely with decent action scenes involving the Decepticons that also further the story, and Sam purchasing Bumblebee and witnessing him in his robot form. It really builds to a head and comes alive when Barricade attacks Sam directly and Bumblebee comes to his and Mikaela's rescue. From there, we get to meet the Autobots, who over the course of their interaction with Sam and each other, establish their personalities. Optimus is the noble and idealistic fighter who will fight fiercely to protect the innocent, Bumblebee is playful and quirky but extremely loyal to his human friends, Jazz is cool and laid back but takes his fellow Autobots' lives seriously, Ironhide is aggressive and intimidating and doubts the humans' worth, and Ratchet is... okay, Ratchet's on the short end of the character department, but he's got some good scenes and a couple of good jokes. The mythos involving the Allspark gives the Autobots and Decepticons a good, if somewhat simplistic reason for starting their war, and Megatron crashing on Earth and being inactive for centuries is a new twist. Sector Seven is another good idea as a way for the humans to respond to the Transformers appearing on Earth, and Agent Simmons is a fun character. There's a sense of stakes as Optimus considers sacrificing himself, and the Decepticons, once they have the location of Megatron and the Allspark, easily free their leader and force the humans to release Bumblebee so they can get the Allspark away. The battle in Mission City is full of memorable scenes and fantastic action sequences. Ratchet, Jazz, and Ironhide taking down Brawl is an awesome use of teamwork that helps give the Decepticons some bite with how powerful Brawl is. The freeway battle between Prime and Bonecrusher is another fun action sequence, and Bumblebee and Mikaela's tow truck charge is fairly unique. For all the criticism I've heard of the Allspark being the thing Megatron wants and also the thing that kills him, I think they established fairly well that the solution of shoving it into Megatron's chest should kill him. Megatron wants to use its power on other machines, but uniting it with a Transformer's spark is said to be fatal for them both. There's a nice resolution, as well as a nice teaser for the next film with Starscream escaping into space.

    In contrast, the 1986 film, while superb (possibly more enjoyable than the 2007 film) for a special episode of the original cartoon, doesn't work as a standalone movie nearly as well. It requires you to have foreknowledge of the existing characters so you care when Brawn, Ironhide, Ratchet, and Prowl are slaughtered on the shuttle, you're in as much tears as almost every kid who saw the cartoon and then watched Optimus Prime die on the big screen, and you're satisfied when Galvatron finally just shoots Starscream for his many betrayals.
    It also requires you to be sufficiently hooked for the next season, so you get the explanations for Unicron, the Quintessons, and the Matrix of Leadership. Granted, one or two of those explanations is extraordinarily stupid (it does baffle me how people can prefer Unicron being built by a shrieking space-monkey to the space gods mythos from the comics), but hey, to each their own.
    However, it does a good job of setting up the new characters. Hot Rod is an impulsive and hotheaded youngster who learns to value the advice and experiences of his comrades after his actions get Optimus Prime killed. Kup is a grizzled old war veteran who always has some good advice and a tale to tell. Arcee is a fierce warrior who masks her concern for her comrades, Blurr is hyper and prone to panic, Springer is cool-headed and snarky, and Ultra Magnus is a serious but humble soldier. The villains are great, with Megatron and Starscream being as fun a duo as ever, and Galvatron and Unicron being fun villains with epic voices afterward. The voice acting is amazing, and the animation is GORGEOUS, a vast step-up from the error-ridden (though serviceable) animation of the cartoon (though the movie isn't immune, right Thundercracker and Skywarp?). The soundtrack is great, too, for those of us who like 80's music, the action is intense and practically carries the movie, and the story has a great sense of stakes. As Gordon above mentioned, it also doesn't forget the Transformers are the title characters and deserve some focus. For all the praise I've given the 2007 movie, Megatron is the only Decepticon who gets any kind of character development within the first Michael Bay film, and even then, he's mostly your generic movie villain.
    As a side note, I do like that they didn't go as kill-happy as they could have been (all the characters who were getting discontinued would be slaughtered in one massive Charge of the Light Brigade in the original draft for the movie). Even though Jazz's voice actor passed away and Cliffjumper's left the show, I am glad we at least had Bumblebee and the Dinobots in the following season.

    Truthfully, I think there's a good compromise between the two. While the 2007 Transformers film is objectively a better movie, the 1986 animated film is, to me, the better experience. I enjoy both for what they are, and they both have their separate strengths and weaknesses. All I can ask is that future movies take what worked from both of them, and learn from any mistakes they might have made.
     
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  15. IdiotBlaster

    IdiotBlaster Banned

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    No it's not. That may be your opinion, and that's fine. It's not an objective fact.
     
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  16. DOTM Bumblebee

    DOTM Bumblebee I must be some kind of nut...

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    Okay, I worded that badly. I should have said that from my perspective it's an objectively better film. Better?
     
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  17. TFfanatic88

    TFfanatic88 Banned

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    No, the 2007 movie is a boring and pretentious pile of shit that besmirches the very name of Transformers. I would rather watch Dragonball Evolution over Bayformers 1 instead, at least DBE was borderline "so bad it's good".
     
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  18. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    :lol 
     
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  19. TFfanatic88

    TFfanatic88 Banned

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    Please, the 2007 Transformers was not entertaining. That film has no redeeming factors and proof that Michael Bay is a hack who has never made a single good movie.
     
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  20. electronic456

    electronic456 Dog of Raw

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    A Quiet Place would like a word with you.

    Also next time, don't use certain words when expressing your opinion.
     
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