How to design the Transformers || The Kiki/Bouba Effect

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Paok, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Posts:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +920
    A very interesting video about character design and what the Bumblebee movie seems to be doing right, design-wise, where all the previous movies faultered, according to the maker of this video. Travis Knight's background in animation already shows!

     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. BigRed

    BigRed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2015
    Posts:
    799
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Likes:
    +720
    Completely awful video, guy took zero real technological reasons behind the choices made in the first Bay movie and apparently did zero research on ILM's proccess, guiding everything with a flat out ignorant and fanboyish take on matters. It's a nerd with a camera. Hell not even that, since the video is just scrolling pictures while he makes stupid points.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  3. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Posts:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +920
    Jesus Christ, the mental gymnastics to justify your tastes. It's the most basic observation that he makes, that's relevant and present in design since the dawn of time! For the love of god.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Paxtin

    Paxtin Relatively-Tolerated Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Posts:
    9,304
    Trophy Points:
    282
    Likes:
    +1,745
    That's often why when the topic of reboot directors comes up I personally always say Brad Bird. Having someone who knows how to direct animation is a significant talent needed for a TF film.

    Now, that being said, that doesn't completely mean that I would agree that the previous movie designs were bad because of this, but it def helps to have someone who knows animation on board to have a better eye for what will work.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. Cosbydaf

    Cosbydaf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Posts:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +2,382
    The more simplistic style and rounded shapes on Bumblebee absolutely make for a huge difference in conveying vulnerability and a friendlier personality - compared to the original it's like night and day.

    However you can also create a menacing evil villain with no sharp edges - Darth Vader being the most famous example. I think that's the main flaw with '07 Megatron, it goes way overboard with the spiky parts when Megatron designs tend to intimidate in different ways (namely a giant arm cannon).
     
    • Like Like x 7
  6. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Posts:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +920
    Here's someone who gets it! You can play around with this principle and create various balances that convey character. A good example has always been Goku, as a kid, in Dragonball. His body is fairly round shaped, to convey friendliness, but his hair is spiked. That shows he is adventurous and energetic. Similarly, one of the designs I've always liked from Transformers history, is Prowl's, from G1. He's got a heroic build, like a cowboy, some mostly round chest and helmet, but also his spikey devil horns and spikey doors, like wings on the back. It's a very striking design, for me. It shows he is friendly, on one hand, but also kind of a cocky badass. Simplicity can go a long way. Complexity can go a long way as well, but it could just as easily fall into a mess that sends confusing, unclear visual signals. Balance is key.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Cosbydaf

    Cosbydaf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2007
    Posts:
    2,006
    Trophy Points:
    262
    Likes:
    +2,382
    This reminds me of something, what I thought was one of the worst design choices in the films - when Bumblebee copies Stinger's appearance in AOE.

    [​IMG]

    As mentioned in the video Bumblebee is the friendly, approachable Autobot. Stinger's design is the exact opposite of that, almost everything about him conveys murderous intent. He literally has a back covered in saw blades. So Bee takes on the likeness of one of the film's villains for seemingly no reason.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    568
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +1,955
    Unused concept for Bay’s Megatron
    082E75BE-0962-4B96-85F8-66BEF130AD7E.jpeg
    What we got was kind of close. ;) 
     
    • Like Like x 7
  9. electronic456

    electronic456 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Posts:
    3,329
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +2,330
    I don't know man... TF1-3 Optimus Prime is just awesome to me. So I don't really feel the criticism, it seems like the older generation looking down at the younger generation sort of thing to me.

    Also if you're gonna talk about Megatron. Please be up to date.

    [​IMG]


    To be up to date with his counterpart. I never got that feeling Stinger was murderous. Stinger was more made for consumer appeal.

    I mean why do certain villains on the other hand take on the likeness of their hero counterparts?
    -Iron Monger
    -Yellowjacket
    -Kilmonger
     
    • Like Like x 5
  10. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Posts:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +920
    I don't think it is. And I don't think neither the video nor my personal opinion are that critical of Optimus Prime's design from the first 3 movies. I'm cool with it.

    But Megatron (even from the 5th movie) and the Decepticons on the other hand, break my Decepticon heart. I never liked how generically evil and demonic and one-dimensional they were portrayed. I'd love them to be more compelling, both design-wise and plot-wise. That's one of my major gripes, not only with the movies, but with the trend of downplaying the villains, in general, in many iterations of Transformers as well as many works of fiction as of late.

    As for Stinger, I don't consider his design one of the worst from the movies. Far from it. And I think it's shown why Bumblebee feels antagonized by him and takes a similar form, so I'm not that bothered. It kinda makes some sense, at least for the level of sense anything makes in these movies for me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. PaxStarkist

    PaxStarkist Casual G1 fan and 1st trilogy apologist

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Posts:
    198
    Trophy Points:
    97
    Likes:
    +181
    That design doesn't suit ANYBODY!!!
    I like the first three films designs for bringing the Transformers
    into live action in the first place but those days are done.
    They've now PROVEN They can do a perfect balance of G1 and Bayverse.
    This isn't gonna get Me to throw away My Bayformer DVDs
    just as much as Force Awakens isn't gonna get Me to throw away My prequel DVDs
    Now if they can get Prime, Megs and the rest looking this good, We might actually
    have something here WITHOUT the need of a fucking cinematic universe
    (what were they even thinking with that?)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Paxtin

    Paxtin Relatively-Tolerated Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Posts:
    9,304
    Trophy Points:
    282
    Likes:
    +1,745
    I really do get the feeling that originally Stinger's design was never meant for Bee to copy. Especially when you look at this old concept art where "Stinger" is called Wasp and colored yellow, like he was really meant to be a straight up evil Bumblebee.
    BeeVsWasp01.jpg
    BeeVsWasp02.jpg
    BeeVsWasp03.jpg

    It's speculation, but I get the idea that Bay looked at Wasp and thought: "Hey, that's bad ass...Lets just use that for Bee."
     
    • Like Like x 4
  13. sladeprime

    sladeprime Check the earth. It might be Unicron.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Posts:
    751
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    172
    Location:
    Philippines
    Likes:
    +577
    I have no problem with 1st trilogy Optimus Prime. But obviously, the design won't appeal to the traditional mindd. It's like Yoni Madar,Joey Baron on drums or Virgil Donati. Not every people will appreciate them. At least one must to get deep into something 1st.
     
  14. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    568
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +1,955
    Yeah... not crazy about that guy either. Reminds me of a paler version of:
    DACA1FAA-E028-4EFF-8D86-5CD754A10C59.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
    • Like Like x 3
  15. QuintusTheExaltedOne

    QuintusTheExaltedOne Creator of the Quintessons and ex-Prime

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Posts:
    416
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +1,040
    Why are the camaro parts on bumblebee depressed?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Posts:
    9,674
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +2,307
    It depends.

    It narrows down to what you like. For me Bumblebee, Megatron and many characters throughout the film designs have made sense to me. They have protoforms and vehicle parts are arranged around that.
    I can distinguish the good guys and the bad guys.
    I know however that's not the case for a lot of people.

    Going with @Cosbydaf point, Bee used that form to prove he was better. He was jealous lol.

    I liked the design, except the silly rims on his shoulders with edges (served no purpose) and Megatron cannon.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    @Paxtin might be right about stinger being a nemesis bumblebee. Stinger did have a wasp vibe in his design.

    @Pichomp
    That devil character is more like Infernocus.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Fallout

    Fallout ꧁꧂

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Posts:
    16,315
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    302
    Location:
    tulsa, oklahoma
    Likes:
    +9,738
    Instagram:

    holy shit, never knew about that concept. that explains why bee's ninja stars are straight on the toy, even though even the red stinger concepts have curved blades.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Paok

    Paok Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2018
    Posts:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Likes:
    +920
    I can distinguish the good guys and bad guys as well. The good guys are mostly colourful and the bad guys are all, more or less, variations of the same grey, monstrous, insectoid guy. It makes G1's eye-colour visual signifier seem subtle in comparison. I wish they make the Decepticons more interesting in the future. Hound is like a parody of a Transformer. As well as Drift. It's like, in an attempt to humanize the designs, they turnt them into metallic human stereotypes, because that's how far Bay's understanding of a human being goes. I admire the work that goes into the details, lighting and expression and feel of weight especially for the first 3 movies. I truly truly do. ILM has always done a great job bringing Bay's vision to life. It's that Bay's vision, to me, at least, design-wise, always seems to stem from the same, kinda shallow, mental place. I always understood the intention behind many of the aesthetic choices (for example, making them look otherwordly), but, especially throughout 5 movies, the overall aesthetic identity feels so inconsistent to me. It either doesn't convey character accurately, or it does so much that it becomes too obvious.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Posts:
    9,674
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +2,307
    It's honestly been a mixed bag after five films. With Lockdown I was annoyed at the face and all in the marketing before the film. I was so use to how a deception was "suppose" to look like. But once I saw the movie, Lockdown became a favorite. His performance made me re-think Megatron and the Fallens portrayals as main villains.

    Hound and the new autobots in TF4 faces were obviously to please a lot of people that wanted more human like designs.

    It was a cool change for some, and not so much for others. For me if I can literally see a human face on a deception or Autobots, it distracts me a lot. It's no longer pleasing.

    With Quintessa, her design made sense because she was some superior whatever, who probably had creators working for her, and so it fit.
     
  20. Pichomp

    Pichomp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    568
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Likes:
    +1,955
    9C507170-8D9D-4EDB-9AAE-BBDF1CF33E5A.jpeg 75483F8E-B9C9-4F7A-9FEF-9B9768F03A29.jpeg
    All I see are two ugly demon monsters, instead of a demon monster and a Decepticon.

    IMHO, The one on the right with the beady eyes, sharp teeth, curved horns on either side of it’s head, and jagged pieces all over it’s body looks like a low budget SyFy original demon... not a Decepticon leader. Nothing more to say about it.
    30631DBC-0E4A-4DF5-875A-2A9E464C4A40.gif
    *Sorry, I was just looking for an excuse to use this Batman gif. Thought it was funny. I’m not angry or anything.

    Travis Knight seems to be fixing a lot of that. Whether he actually does or not (in the finished film) remains to be seen. We’ll see.
     
    • Like Like x 3

Share This Page