Help! Paint won't stick. It keeps rubbing off.

Discussion in 'Creative General Discussion' started by Transformed, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    Howdy, Transforming Modding gods m(_ _)m

    This is the first time I've ever come to this side of TFW2005—I only wish I came here before trying a mod of my own, as I probably could have avoided the problem I'm facing now.

    I bought an airbrush, an air compressor, and some Tamiya acyclic to paint my TFC Toys Neckbreaker's black blade (man, is regret starting to set in:(  )

    After days of trying to match the green color scheme TFC Toys uses (only to fall short) and re-painting the blade after having my semi-gloss coat frost on me, I'm having friction issues with Neckbreaker's moving parts: paint applied around and on Neckbreaker's blade rub off upon transforming the blade.

    I've tried sanding the contact areas, smoothing unevenness, as well as thinning the blade's contact areas slightly with ultra-fine sandpaper to help with clearance; I have even applied quite a bit of semi-gloss (Mr. Hobby’s Topcoat/Mr. Hobby’s Mr.Super Clear) on the painted parts, hoping this would give the paint some added protection. Sadly, my problems getting the paint to stay in place still persist.

    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that prior to painting, these parts washed them with warm water and soap. And no paint primer was used—boy, am I regretting that now (...though I wonder if it would have mattered).

    Does anyone here know how I can save this repaint?
    If you look closely at the area just below Neckbreaker’s head, you can see the problematic areas I slightly touched with paint here:
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  2. knoted

    knoted Resistor Transistor

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    That is why : sand down rub areas - clean & dry - PRIMER - paint.

    Goodluck.
     
  3. D-Unit

    D-Unit #1 Heel

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    You need to remove the clear coat and/or use different paint. I repainted all 6 of these guys using spray paint and it stuck like glue, so that's maybe the way you want to go. If you are just trying to re=paint that small part, then I advise rubbing/soaking it with some 91% alcohol, then letting it sit for like 15 minutes, then wipe it off with a paper towel for about 20 seconds (this will buff off the clear coat, which is possibly what is making your paint not stick). Also, as I said earlier, maybe change the paint you are using if what I said doesn't work. If you feel like googling my thread, you can see what the result looks like using spray paint (though it wasn't the same shade of green you're going for)/ Hope that helps man.
     
  4. wildfly

    wildfly Right notes. Wrong order.

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    Just a few things to think over until someone more expert chips in:

    1) Did you apply thin enough coats, and leave them enough time to dry, before applying further coats?

    2) Was the surface free of smudges, small traces of grease from finger prints, before you started painting?
     
  5. simonatmac

    simonatmac The stop motion maker

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    If on airbrush technique I´d suggest:
    Use Mr.Metal Primer as coat.

    Oh hand painted areas I´d suggest enamel colors
     
  6. SonOfNemesis

    SonOfNemesis Well-Known Member

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    There's two main problems that I can see here: 1) the prep work (sanding, cutting, grinding) as you now know wasn't sufficient. I'm just going to tell you like it is man, please don't take it like I am being an a$$...

    When you sand parts down to prevent rub, you really need to use like 400 - 600 grit sand paper and actually sand material away. Then use your fine sand paper to restore the surface to a smooth finish. Using ultra fine sand paper to grind away material is pointless. I use a piece of regular white paper and slide the paper through the new gap I've sanded between two points, if the paper can slide through, you are good. If the paper can't slide through, keep sanding. Also, you need to be able to slide the paper through at all stages of transformation (try sliding the paper through while you transform the figure). Also sometimes you can use an exacto blade and carve away thin layers at a time to cancel 'rub spots'.

    A dremel tool is the best option for this because of the mini sanding tools and control we get when we use them.

    The point is, it doesn't matter if you used lacquer paint to paint your figure...if two surfaces rub into each other, the paint is coming off. Think of it as 'adding' layers to a surface where dye on the plastic figure right out of the box 'is' the surface, not an added layer of paint. If you add layers, they must have clearance or it's coming off - doesn't matter if you prime it first.

    Also...2) Your paint type and brand is below good. Tamiya paints are fine for washes that recess into areas that are never going to rub or for non-transforming figures per se but the fact is, Tamiya acrylics are just not durable enough. Test this if you want...airbrush any color onto a piece of 'primed' plastic (let's get the best possible adhesion) and let it dry for days, weeks, or months even. Then, take some regular windex and spray it one time. Watch as the paint literally melts off (not to mention you can so easily scratch the paint off as well). Now do the same thing but use Model Master acrylics...the windex will do nothing to it.

    Now compare Tamiya acrylics to Model Master Acrylics and you'll find Model Masters to be at least 5 times stronger. For instance, brushing paint with tamiya paints is easy to clean up with regular windex (forgot alcohol). Try it! Now with Model Master acrylics, the windex won't work, usually you need to use acetone).

    Since you have an airbrush you should be base coating with at least enamel paints and then doing your details with either enamels or at least, model master acrylics - not tamiya.

    It's going to be a tough lesson man if you can't fix your Herc figure as it's expensive but it's definitely a learning lesson though. I hope you can fix the problems you are having.
     
  7. Hotwire

    Hotwire Pro-Customizer

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    Well, I used to use Tamiya for everything so, maybe I can help. This stuff is fairly weak. For best results I would do the following.
    1. Take the figure apart and clean it. Allow it to dry over night.
    2. Lay down a medium base coat of Krylon Camouflage Ultra Flat Black, and let dry over night.
    3. Put the figure back together and transform it. This will show you all of your paint rub spots.
    4. I sand them down using multiple steps.
    4a. Sand down a bit with an emory board.
    4b. Sand that with a finer grit sandpaper, around 600 to remove scratches left behind by the emory board.
    4c. Sand again with 800-1200 to remove the last of the scratches left behind by the previous sanding.
    5. Respray the problem areas and check for rub again.
    6. Start in on the top color once the black no longer rubs off.
    7. I spray on Testors Dullcoate or Gloss Coat to seal it. USE VERY LIGHT COATS AND ALLOW AT LEAST 1-2 HOURS BETWEEN COATS!! ANYTHING MORE WILL REACTIVATE THE TAMIYA AND SCREW UP YOUR COLOR!!!!

    A lot of the paint rub spots you can tell how much material you need to remove. Just keep in mind that for every coat of paint you lay down, that area gets a bit thicker.
     
  8. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    Thanks a lot to all who replied, your advice has been very insightful.

    As I live in Japan, many of the products you’ve suggested cannot be purchased at hobby shops here (at least I haven’t seen them at the big hobby shops I’ve visited anyway).

    The paints I’ve seen for sale in hobby shops here are always Mr. Hobby and Tamiya paints. I recall seeing one another unknown brand, but its name eludes me at the moment.

    I do not have access to Windex, but will any old window wash that looks like Windex work the same—Japan has its own products, some of which looks like stuff I can find in the States. What’s in Windex that eats away at gloss? If I know what the ingredient is, I can look for that on the bottle. In any case, 91% alcohol will do the same thing, right?

    I wore gloves while painting, so no oils from hands touched the plastic during the painting process. And I allowed an hour or more for paints to dry—I’ve been painting this thing on my days off or when I had time which isn’t all that much (I’ve been working on this for a week). I don’t recall the number of layers applied; I kept appling thin layers of paint until I couldn’t see the original black surface anymore.

    I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re saying here. When you say clean up the figure, are you saying that I should remove all of the paint and start anew or just clean up the problem areas and apply a primer on top of them? And it is on these areas that I should apply the primer, sand, check, prime again and seal up and then paint and seal again?

    I can’t find Testors products here; I only have access to Mr. Hobby topcoats and the like. In regards to applying gloss, how many coats should I put on before stopping? How much is too little? How much is enough?
     
  9. Hotwire

    Hotwire Pro-Customizer

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    Well, I strip factory paints as I do complete repaints. But, if you only want to paint part of the figure, just make sure you either take off the part you want to paint, or thoroughly tape off what you don't want paint on. Also, I prime, sand, check, prime again. The go for color. Once the color is done, I seal it.

    Also, where do you live that you can't get Windex?
     
  10. Jbarb78

    Jbarb78 Well-Known Member

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    Mr Hobby lacquers work very well, they're better than Tamiya and much more durable. Sand down the rub areas again like Zac said, use an 800 grit paper followed by 1200 to smooth it out. Prime using Mr Surfacer (white) primer, and then some Mr Hobby lacquer for your base coat. Apply in thin coats, 3 coats normally to bury your primer coat, which should also be applied thin. Then clear coat and allow atleast a week to dry before you move the parts or re-assemble. Again, like Zac said, paint is not a dye, it's a thin pigmented film coating your plastic. Plastic by nature of design is meant to repell other materials, the main reason why it's used for storage of fluids and chemicals, so we're all taking a crap-shoot when we paint it. All you can truly do is minimize paint rubbing and chipping, you can never totally eradicate it.
     
  11. ZedzDead

    ZedzDead decepticon sabatour

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    It doesn't look that bad. I mean just leave it alone. I actually like that color green you used over the original color. It actually adds char to him to be positive about the subject matter. Z
     
  12. bellyboy

    bellyboy working working working

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    try mixing some future finish (floor polish ) to the tamiya paint it will increase its durability

    2 parts paint 1 part future
     
  13. cheetor71

    cheetor71 Autobot

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    I'm sure what Hotwire means by cleaning the parts is to use soap and water to remove any mold release agent on the plastic. In most cases factory paint can be painted over with a primer coat.
     
  14. seali_me

    seali_me Well-Known Member

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    - clean with hot water and soap
    - light sanding and/or remove factory paint
    - primer
    - paint
    - if you have time light sanding between coat
    - then top coat with the finish you want

    Sand the areas where the moving parts are tight if you don't your paint will scrape off of rub off.
     
  15. GENOZAUR

    GENOZAUR Banned

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    ive been giving this matter a bit of thought lately and i got a question when it comes to the connector ports systme the tfc herculese figures ues to combine into the big guy


    using some high strength epoxy glue and a dremil wouldd it be possible to modify each longhauls knee connector parts and hooks shoudler connector parts

    and also modify the combienr prot parts in scavenger bonecrusher mixmaster and scrapper

    in such a way that at the combiner ports and connector rod parts each of the 4 limb figures are instead equipped with a set of metal screw nuts in thier combiner port joints?

    with longhaul having his knee connecot r rod ports swapped out for a set of metal screws that are the same over all size and legnth of the conenctor rods

    basicly the whole idea being that one could jsut screw the limb figures on into place using a weasher nut and screw connection sytsem without having to wrry about any plastic wear and tear in the longtemr

    and then just screw the limb figures off without any wear ortear to the plastic parts over time due to the metal screw nut connector system
     
  16. SonOfNemesis

    SonOfNemesis Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this is that you would lose full motion articulation that the 'clicking' joints give you. When you screw something into place you have to screw it in all the way to 'seat' it or else it'll just hang loosely due to gravity.
     
  17. jadyn

    jadyn Member

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    What kind of paint to use for a chrome look on wheels
     
  18. Superquad7

    Superquad7 We're only human. Super Mod

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    This thread is better suited for Creative General Discussion, since the topic is "help".
     
  19. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    My apologies, I thought I was in the right area m(_ _)m

    Thank you:D 

    Can't buy this stuff in Japan (at least not where I'm at:( 

    Thank you. I’ll try to track down some Mr. Hobby Lacquer; so far I haven’t had any look. Everywhere I look I’ve only been able to Mr. Color, which are like Tamiya’s acrylics:( 
    Japan
     
  20. iDarkDesign

    iDarkDesign Rodeo Lawyer

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    I was in Tokyo and Osaka last year and both cities are like a mekka for model builders! How come you come all the way here for advice?! I agree that most US stuff isn't sold in Japan, but the shops there sell more specified and more variations then I could ever imagine! There is a tool and paint for everything! I agree that tamiya isn't the best for transforming toys but if you are just displaying them it's good enough. It'll survive a couple of transformations a year. Just keep to the aforementioned steps. There soo much know how in Japan. Try and look up all the Gundam model stores. The staff there is happy to help you with any question.

    Good luck!

    iDD
     

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