At least, not outside of a Michael Bay movie.  

zmog

 

Some good responses in there!

I get what SMOG is saying about Impactor, but it still doesn't sit very well with me. Especially when the Wreckers were giving serious consideration to detonating all of the brain-chips and killing tonnes of Decepticons (and Impactor) in equally dubious circumstances.

The whole book seemed to be about how the Wreckers were supposed to break the rules and do things that went against the usual policy, hence the difference between reality and Fisitron's highly idealised version of the Wreckers and their code of honour.

I get why the Autobots would want to use Impactor as a scapegoat, but it's the reactions of his colleagues that bother me. If LSOTW is to be believed, the Wreckers are always going against the book and doing underhanded stuff - it's why they exist: to do the things that other Autobots can't or won't do.

I just think it's a bit odd for one of the Wreckers to act, well, all 'Wrecker-y', and end up as a pariah, even though the greater good was served.

But that's just my take on it; I respect that others might read it and come to the opposite conclusion - the good thing about this series is that it raises these moral and ethical dilemmas that are so fun to discuss and argue over, especially given that the previous mini had 'should Bumblebee lie to a little girl' as its major ethical question...

 

We can also get some idea of how Autobots in IDW think based on how they treated their most despicable criminals and Con prisoners; Garrus was a prison where people were incarcerated or spark-extracted, but I don't think we've come across examples of capital punishment officially meted out by the Autobots, have we? It seems they place a great deal of importance on due process and the sanctity of Cybertronian life in that context.

...which is a bit of a paradox, considering how, on the one hand, life is cheap in a 4 million year war (you'll see more examples of that later, like cold-constructed sparks and MTO ('Made-to-Order') soldiers), but on the other hand, one of the central tenets of Cybertronian cosmology is their 'immortality' which is seen as a gift from their gods (again, this will come up later), suggesting that their eternal, sprawling lives might be seen as sacred by many.

Anyway, more to come! You're on the cusp of what I consider to be 2-3 years of the most interesting Transformers comics (and world-building) in the franchise's history. Honestly, I think it got a bit stale in the last couple of years (as well as muddled by some obvious Hasbro-mandated marketing events) but there's still some great stuff on the horizon for you.  

zmog

 

Haha! For sure!

And I also totally get your point, as well. I agree that Impactor's crime seems to be over-emphasized under the circumstances. I think that one of the weaknesses in the scenario here is Roche's indecision about whether the Wreckers are a top-secret black-ops group of Autobot psychopaths who do the dirty jobs, no questions asked... or if they're some kind of all-star squad of national heroes. I appreciate the contrast he's trying to create with Ironfist's hero worship, but it also seems like Roche is trying to have it both ways, and it's a bit awkward, I agree.

But as a public event (ie: something that they couldnt' suppress) I could see how the incident could be seen as an embarassment, with the leader of the Wreckers absolutely rejecting the moral rectitude and idealism that the Autobots ostensibly stand for.

I mean, I guess the question is where the boundaries actually are... between being a rebel freedom-fighter, and being a murderer. Secret missions and dirty fighting is one thing, but summary executions may cross a whole other line, especially for Autobots who see themselves as a bunch of irreverent, spontaneous, but ultimately righteous and above-board types (as lamented by Prowl in his AHM side story). Again, it may all be about the optics, and the discrepancy between what the Autobots are, and what they'd rather think of themselves as being. As we later discover, the Autobots have all sorts of skeletons in their closets, and the real dirty jobs were handled by groups like the Diplomatic Corps (again, with Prowl as the principal architect) and the New Institute. By comparison, the Wreckers were just noisemakers.

So yeah, the moral convolutions will continue, particularly in More Than Meets the Eye, and to a more simplistic degree in Robots in Disguise. The unfortunate thing is that Prowl will be very inconsistently handled from here on in... but I would say that when Nick Roche gets his hands on him (not nearly often enough), that's when it's most interesting.

zmog

 

Smog, careful about talking about the diplomatic corps that's a pretty hefty spoiler to be throwing around

 

I seem to remember at the time on the old IDW boards at least, there was quite a bit of debate about how severe impactor's crimes were. I fell/still fall into the same camp as you Ryan in thinking what he did was fine but many others disagreed. I actually think that made that part of the story better than I first thought, because it wasn't black and white and people had varying opinions. I guess you also have to accept irl if he were to do that as a soldier for any western armed forces he'd be severely punished, so why wouldn't the autobots who are presented as very human share those laws? There was a case not too long ago where a royal marine was sentenced to life in prison for executing an injured taliban fighter who'd just been part of an attack that had killed his comrades. I thought the sentence was a disgrace but virtually the entire media and political establishment called his actions dipicable.
Ps - still loving the reviews. Keep it up  

 

Is it? Maybe. Hmmm... it's been a while, but I don't think it's a big mystery for very long. When it's first mentioned, the subtext is pretty thick.

But okay, forget I said anything.  

Yeah, I think we need to separate two core issues here... on one side, we can ask if we agree with Impactor's actions. That's a different thing from how his actions may be viewed or treated by the administration or the average Bot.

I can totally believe that Impactor got in serious trouble for that (after all, war crime). I think the more confusing aspect is wondering what kind of outfit the Wreckers are, that they can't get away with pulling a stunt like that. I mean, Impactor could have simply reported that Squadron-X had all been killed in the action. Would Prowl have ratted them out? Would any of the other Wreckers? Was there a UN observer on-site?

And even on the question of whether you agree/disagree... I think it's possible to agree that he did the "right" thing, but also recognize on principle that these rules are in place for a reason - to enforce our "better selves" - and that people should not be able to take the law into their own hands, and that individuals who are part of an institution (like the military) do not have the right to act violently in pursuit of their own personal vendettas or emotional impulses. Vengeance is not necessarily a good enough reason, and individuals are not granted the right to serve as judge, jury, and executioner in such cases. Soldiers and law-enforcement operate as an armature of justice and the nation, not as individuals or vigilantes.

Which means, uncomfortably, that something can be right and wrong at the same time. That's a relativist approach that might send an absolutist into conniptions, but there it is. Moral rectitude does not protect people from the ethical ramifications of their actions.

That said, if nobody was looking, I'd totally have executed Squadron-X. Impactor was just too obvious.  

zmog

 

I don't think I've replied here before, but I've been lurking and eagerly waiting for you to get to Last Stand of the Wreckers, Ryan.

And I'm really glad it had the same impact on you that it had on most people, me included. Now I can't wait for you to get to MTMTE and Sins of the Wreckers, or even Chaos Theory!   Keep it up!

 

I'd pretty much been out of Transformers comics since the collapse of Dreamwave. I occasionally picked up the odd issue of IDW but it was playing waaay too much of the long game for me to really get invested.

Anyhoo - I broke my leg in early 2010 and went online to hoover up a pile of comics for when I was housebound, and decided to take a punt on LSOTW.

Incredible - it felt so fresh and vibrant and relevant. It reminded me of when I picked up Grant Morrison's New X-Men after a decade of X-Men comics so bland they could be British cuisine.

Really enjoyed reading these last five reviews. Sadly my new-found enthusiasm for TF comics took another couple of years to reap rewards, but Last Stand makes my top 10 of any and all comic stories I've read.

 

Ah, that’s what I’m worried about now, when you get back to the main series after this I imagine there might be a moment where you shout: “Screw this let’s just skip to the next Roberts story!” I kid though, it’ll be a bit longer before we can get something of the same quality as Last Stand of the Wreckers, but when you see that faint light at the end of the tunnel during 1 or 2 certain issues of Costa’s ongoing, it won’t be much further.

What I loved about Last Stand was how it made me appreciate the Wreckers more than before. I reread Stormbringer after I first read this and went giddy like a kid seeing the Wreckers again, and when I read Spotlight Drift I was very upset the Wreckers were losing their edge briefly just to give way for Drift to have his moment instead. I agree with your opinion on Verity’s presence in this comic, I mean I love her since say the end of Infiltration, but her presence here didn’t do a lot to make me like her more. Still after Hunter’s abrupt death it’s nice to see one of the writers didn’t forget about the old Human cast.

Impactor’s crime, well it was against some intergalactic law of warfare, and it doesn’t look like they could transport Squadron X as prisoners seen as there were too many to carry, but from my experience, if Optimus had Megatron held captive after a long bloody battle, no law would have stopped him from putting an end to the menace if he saw the danger in letting him go. I guess what Springer said makes sense though, they deserved to die but that didn’t give Impactor the right to kill them unfortunately. Still I'm confused, Impactor had to shoot through Springer to get a clear shot at Squadron X, but he couldn't shoot at them say, over Springer's head or past his side? They couldn't show us the whole picture of where they were pinned down so I was wondering when I first read this if they didn't have any other angle to shoot them at.

Still this is where we start to see some corruption in the ranks of the Autobots. For me this is the point where I become a bit conflicted with the morally dubious nature of Prowl. I can understand his desire to make sure Overlord won't find out about the Autobot trials that Aequitas held, and there is no one better than the Wreckers for a suicide mission, but geez he only got Ironfist into the Wreckers so that he could override the security lock on the computer, and while it ended up being Topspin who sacrificed himself, Ironfist was still doomed to die regardless… Argh. I’ll leave the matter of Prowl for another day it’s hurting my small head for a bit. Now because I’m terrible about avoiding spoilers, I knew Ironfist would die by the end of this before I read it, but I thought he would have died when he said BANG to Overlord, so I was very surprised to see him still alive, but then sadden when he appeared stone dead soon after.

I’m rambling, point is, all of the good people that died in this, it’s really tragic but I love it all. This is where the comics start to dive deeper into moral dilemmas and the horrors of this long war, and while we’re going to be on a bit of a pause in seeing an expansion of those themes, it’ll be worth the wait. I think my brain is fried at the moment though, I’ve spent all week rereading through the Furmanation stories again just to be ready for the next lot of stories we’ll do here, but I think in the process my overall thoughts of Prowl in Last Stand is a bit scattered at the moment, sorry. XD

 

Top post that - captures a lot of the frustrations I felt about going back to TF comics after LSOTW - found only Chaos Theory and Bullets to keep me going...

 

I remember being so taken aback from LSOTW when I first read it; I was feeling things I never would have expected from a Transformers comic. The scenes of violence especially were just so tastefully done. The depictions of the murdered prisoners in the last issue especially stuck with me. Just the contrast between the panels of them alive earlier in the story with their deaths, as well as the little details, like the Autobot symbol shoved in the mouth of one prisoner's severed head. There is an entire horrifying grotesque story behind that one panel, but one panel is all it takes to convey it. Then there's Overlord's burning skeleton, Springer's torn off face in the palm of Overlord's hand, and even the looks on Squadron X's faces before their imminent deaths. The visuals were just as good as the story, down to the red sky and the first definitive use of Energon as more of a visceral fluid than just something they drink, which makes the violence all the more shocking when it occurs.

And of course there's Ironfist's whole revelation in regards to the true nature of the Wreckers' work before his death. Topspin says it best. "People die in stupid pointless ways. Get over it." And while this theme still applies to each death, from a narrative standpoint no death is quite meaningless. Though I agree on the methods behind unlocking Aequitas being a little extreme, it did make for a great dialogue between Ironfist, Pyro and the others, like the way Ironfist laments that it was never going to be Perceptor, or Springer, or Impactor. It was always going to be one of them. Sort of keeping up with this idea that because they are z-list nobodies, they are going to be long forgotten after the events of this story. Though this may not directly apply to Ironfist it, unfortunately, does for the likes of Pyro and Rotorstorm, who are never quite mentioned again in the IDW universe.

What makes the series so great, however, is the fact that we, the readers, are the ones who are going to remember Pyro, Rotorstorm, and Ironfist, not because they are A-Level Badasses like Prime or Grimlock, but because they are just great, memorable characters, despite never appearing in any real fiction until now.

 

So, I remember when LSotW was solicited. I believe it was launched at the same time as that awful Bumblebee mini and the ongoing. I was feeling fairly burnt by IDW by this point, and really debated even getting LSotW.

I get all of my comics via preorder. My question had to be was supporting this new mini worth it?

I knew Nick and James were fans, like us, and that they had worked on various TMUK stuff. Also, Nick had already worked on the series here and there, but I hadn't been blown away by his stuff. I loved Eugenesis, but didn't know if the guy that wrote that could find his feet doing comics. My antipathy toward IDW's handling of the license up until that point was being weighed against the chance for those two gents to do something meaningful. I actually wrestled with this for a bit... even tho' I love Furman, his stuff mostly did not light my world on fire, AHM, to me was AWFUL, and the coda stuff, which was supposed to tie everything together, wasn't much better. Then you had the interviews and burgeoning social media about the upcoming ongoing hitting a lot of the wrong notes with me.

IDW publishes a bunch of cool stuff... why couldn't they get my beloved Transformers right? What was missing?

I ended up preordering, against my better judgement, really, since I didn't relish giving IDW any more money... and didn't regret a second of it. Yes, there were a couple of silly, over the top or logic bending moments, but that's comics for you. Yes, fans still heap a huge amount of praise on this book, but, in my opinion, it still lives up to the hype.

 

The best part about that sentence is when I pronounce it "tee-muck" in my brain. ^^ Nice write-up.

 

Spoiler

Springer blabbed.

"Zero Point" goes into the intra-Wrecker politics more. Basically Sandstorm and Springer were the only ones who had an actual ethical beef, but the other Wreckers agreed to throw Impactor under the bus and convince Springer they thought Impactor had it all wrong. This is a contributor to Sandstorm going off the fucking reservation later, as alluded in "Bullets" and followed up much more comprehensively later on.[/quote]

 

I'd forgotten about that story. The question is, blabbed to who? Who "blabs" in a top-secret black-ops duty squad, when your overarching CO is the shadiest MF ever to transform into a police car? I don't think there was a free press during this phase... heck, there wasn't even a civilian populace to placate. Of course, there are all the 'mainstream' Autobots, significantly Optimus himself. And the personal issue of "you used me as a human shield while firing through a hole in my spine" sort of muddies the debate, even if it's sort of a whole separate thing.

It still seems incongruous to me that the Wreckers, as a morally-grey and close-knit unit, would break ranks over this. Maybe I need to re-read Zero Point... but again, this goes back to the tension over just what "The Wreckerstm" is. They seem sort of like the "all-star black ops" team... the celebrity shit-kickers who make the headlines and make a big noise, so the units that you've never heard of can operate quietly.

zmog

 

I imagine, unless Zero Point says otherwise, that it was Tyrest. Or maybe the big OP himself, since we know Springer was acquainted with him (Stormbringer).

 

I suspect it could have been directly to Prowl, perhaps with the threat of Springer gong over his head to OP.

Spoiler

Especially given SOTW I could see Prowl putting keeping Springer on-side above Impactor's freedom. Impactor can be trusted with the dirty work but Springer can flat out be trusted.

 

Doesn't Impactor say in this story that Springer sang when they hooked him up to Aequitus?

 

Oh yeah, that's true... this was still back in ol' Tyrest's heyday.

I sort of doubt it. This seems like the kind of thing that Prowl would have been happy to suppress, and keep it strictly in his department. He shuns transparency.

Likely, it was someone outside Prowl's command. If they put Springer into Aequitas, then someone must have given them a reason to do so.

zmog