graded Roadbuster auction raises a new thought about CSG grading...

Discussion in 'Transformers On Ebay' started by Might Gaine, Dec 24, 2007.

  1. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    For those that don't know, CSG is a new a grading service competing with AFA.

    I just saw this auction...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Roadbuster-8-0-...oryZ4696QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Look at the label and see the final grades and the sub grades. I think CSG has made the final grade even more meaningless than AFA's final grades. Basically, the figure subgrade, which always receives somewhere around a 8.5 or 9.0 artificially inflates the grade. There's no way a toy with a box like that would ever get an 80 on an AFA scale.

    I was on the fence about them, but now I think I'm not a fan. Averaging the grade doesn't work. It artifically inflates the grade because of the always-high figure grade.

    Oh well.

    Edit--but maybe I'm overreacting--what are other peoples' thoughts?
     
  2. Bryan

    Bryan ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    I thought these folks graded opened toys also, but I could be wrong. But if so, isn't it possible to have a figure with wear and tear, lowering the average?
     
  3. SureShot90

    SureShot90 Peace=superior firepower

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    They grade loose, MIB and MISB toys.
    But anyway I'd never get a AFA/CSG graded toy unless some one gave me for free.
     
  4. JBrock

    JBrock TFW2005 Supporter

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    I feel the exact opposite way. The CSG breakdown makes it clear that this is not a MISB item and seeing the box grades in the 7s, you know exactly what to expect. I don't think a CSG 8.0 equals an AFA 80 the way we know it. An AFA 85 is pretty flawless so maybe the CSG equivalent will be a 9.0 or even a 9.5.

    I would consider this Roadbuster to be in the AFA 70 ballpark.
     
  5. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    Well, look at the toys that have been on Ebay. On the low end is this Roadbuster with an 8.0 and on the high end is this Mirage with an 8.7:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/FTS-Factory-Tap...oryZ4696QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    That Mirage would easilly get an 85 if not a 90 under AFA. I graded a bunch of Mirages in the exact same condition and most of them came out 90s.

    So AFA 70/75 = CSG 8.0 and AFA 85/90 = CSG 8.7?

    It looks to me like the figure grades are inflating the grades of the worse condition figures and pretty much everything is getting 8.0 ~ 9.0 as a result...

    Edit--You know, if I had my own grading scale, I think I would take the figure grade out of the equation. If your figure isn't around an 8.5/85, I would reject it. Everything gets around 8.5/85 or 9.0/90. It's never been outside the box, so unless there is a major defect (in which case, why are you grading it?) every figure should be pretty much the same. Maybe the only exception is toys with metal/chrome that don't come sealed in a bubble and toys with fading. So maybe I'd make some sort of exception for them.
     
  6. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    They say they grade opened toys on their website, but it's unclear whether they just mean toys that are still sealed on the inner card or if they mean any opened toy. If they will grade any opened toy, then yes, the figure grade would vary a lot more. But that doesn't change the fact that the figure grade is artificially inflating "FTS"/"SOC" figures with low box and window subgrades. Maybe what that tells us is averaging works better for opened toys where there is some variation in figure grades, and not for sealed toys.
     
  7. Killa-B-Killed

    Killa-B-Killed Material Handler

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    I noticed some of the same similarities, and differences that you have stated.
    The best way to take advantage of the thoroughness of the CSG grading scale is to pay close attention to the subgrades, and abbreviations. This will give you all the info you need to make an educated decision about the overall condition of the item.

    The figure subgrade has to be included, no matter who grades a toy. I have had toys that paint was chipped off in several spots, sections of the toy were yellowed, and paint apps were sloppy........all MISB

    I had a few of the same Mirages, and some of the Jazz's that I believe were all part of the same warehouse find.
    I didn't get 90's on any of them, and they were absolutely beautiful examples.
     
  8. toyguy282

    toyguy282 New Member

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    UMMM, I finally could not help but sign up, I have enjoyed coming to this site for a while now but I just had to make a first post. I have 18 graded Transformers from AFA, I sent several in at a time but by far my nicest ones first, ones that are near case fresh and recived 80s on all of them, so I sent the rest in and got 85s which had more wear and damage than my 80s, the AFA system is very flawed, the more and more people I talk to say the same thing. As far as the new company, CSG, they do have a better grading scale, if I continue to hear positive stuff, I will probably bust my items out from the AFA cases and submit them to CSG, time will tell, as far as the Roadbuster goes, overall looks like it would be an AFA 75, but if you look at the Roadbusters sub grades it got low 7s for box and box color, I like the overall averaged grade. It reminds me of the AFA 60 shockwave on ebay, box grade of 80, window 60(small crack) and figure 85 that got an overall 60, thats stupid
     
  9. toyguy282

    toyguy282 New Member

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    M.G. I have always admirred you on here but not since this whole CSG topics came up, its kinda like a new food, dont knock it til you try it,one more thing, M. G., havent I read and heard before you have done research work for AFA etc., if so - I can understand you defending them so much, no wonder you get 90s from them
     
  10. toyguy282

    toyguy282 New Member

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    I dont yet know enough to say any comments regarding CSG, and every person has a right to their opinion, so I have no opinion for CSG other than than they have a good grading set up, as far as AFA, nope, cant think of much good to say
    Merry Christmas
     
  11. Soundblaster1

    Soundblaster1 The Heisenberg of Toys

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    Triple post FTL

    The scale's better, but as with AFA, it is corrupt.
     
  12. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Eh, cut the noob a little slack he just signed up.

    Anyways, on all of Might Gaine's comments, it's no secret that I don't particularly care for graded items for my own personal reason, but I have to say that I like the more in depth system used by CSG. I can understand how you may feel that the figure sub-grade will artificially increase the grade, but I think that your assuming that an 8.0 from CSG = and 80 from AFA and vice-a-versa, but the fact is that it probably doesn't. Though it's too early to tell one way or another IMO.

    And, even if it did, than with all the sub-grades on the box one would still be able to make an informed decision about how much money they should spend on said item. While I don't like graded items, even as a novice I can look at the sub-grades and basically say I'm getting a good figure with a worn box. So, the only way that I see the price being artificially inflated is if people bid without thinking.

    Also, I've noticed that you been really going out of your way to point out things about this new company. Are you down on this company or are you just trying to educate yourself on the differences to make a decision on if you want to send stuff to them? Don't take offence to that as I'm just curious as ever sense talk of this company started you seem to be focusing more on potential negatives than potential positives. Just the .02 from a guy not concerned with either company for the most part.

    :2c: 
     
  13. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    Huh? I've never done any sort of work for AFA, ever. I just send them my toys and they send me the grades the toys deserve.

    Also, IMHO it's pretty obnoxious to come on an internet message board and make a baseless accusation at someone you disagree with in only your second post. That was a real dick move.

    As for the 90s, they're pretty rare to get in my experience. Usually I get 80s and 85s as you can tell if you've followed any of my AFA G1 auctions in the last year. When many of the Mirages got 90's, it was because they were case fresh. Not for some other reason.
     
  14. PeterNorth

    PeterNorth Well-Known Member

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    i agree with you you on the shockwave. the overall grade should not be a 60 for a misb shockwave with just a window crack. i think that actually devalued it IMO.
     
  15. PeterNorth

    PeterNorth Well-Known Member

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    also on another note if you look at CSG's grading scale theyll say that an 80 is "above average "where as AFA will say an 80 is "near mint". the term "near mint" should only be used in figures that whould be overall 90's-95's IMO of course
     
  16. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    I'm on vacation, so I don't have time to respond to every comment. But I'll try to reply to some...

    I'm not "down on this company". In my previous posts I was on the fence. I thought some things were really good (using the full scale instead of "5" increments, clearly designated whether it's sealed or not, transparency in where the final grade comes from), but some things didn't seem that great (the feel of a mom and pop operation, overall uncertainty of a relatively unknown service, grading opened toys), and some things I just wasn't sure about (averaging and more subgrades). In this thread it's true that I pointed out what I felt was a flaw, but it was just an observation I wanted to share and discuss with people. If I wanted to, I could keep my thoughts to myself, but then I don't get other peoples' perspectives, so I wouldn't gain anything by not posting. (Though, I don't know why someone was so offended by the observation that he had to launch an untrue personal accusation against me...)

    As for me talking about them a lot, I just think it's really interesting and worthy of discussion. If anyone from CSG sees these threads, they should be grateful to me for talking about them at all. More publicity for a service which as of yet has only received very limited exposure.
     
  17. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    I guess that's one way to deal with it. I mean, the same could be said about AFA-graded toys (looking at the subgrades for a more thorough breakdown).

    Maybe another way to look at is, for the overall grade AFA takes the bottom grade and sometimes adds 5 if it deserves the boost, whereas CG averages the grades. So since it's the difference of taking the bottom grade versus the average grade, of course CSG overall grades are going to be a bit higher generally. Maybe it's okay if you know to look out for it.

    Yeah, I know, crappy figures from the factory happen sometimes. But it's so rare, y'know? Seems like there should be a better way of dealing with it. Like, AFA has the "Y" designation for yellowed packaging. Maybe there should be a "BF" designation for bad figure or something. I just don't feel it needs to be a subgrade with all the weight of the box and the window which tend to vary a lot more than the figure grade.

    The Jazzes can't get higher than 85 because they all have broken tape. It seems to be an unstated rule that AFA will not give opened toys box subgrades higher than 80 or overall subgrades higher than 85. Which makes sense to me. A 90 is something special. To keep it special, they can't let toys with broken tape get 90s. It sort of keeps out the riff raff :) 

    When I said most of my Mirages that were in the same condition came out 90, I meant the ones that were sealed. I didn't count the ones with broken tape (that's different condition to me). (And, to tell the truth, by "most" I meant like 60%, not a huge majority or anything.)
     
  18. Laser_Optimus

    Laser_Optimus Your opinion was noted. Now get lost. TFW2005 Supporter

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    Oh, I agree. If you don't say anything than you don't get others perspectives. I guess it just seemed to me the way you worded certain things that you seemed to be 'down' on this newer company. Though, like I said, the statement wasn't said to be insulting or accusatory in any way... just trying to gauge where your perspective is.

    And, yeah, the noob's second comment was a bit out of line, but like I said... guy just joined that day. Unfortunately it may take him some time to learn proper 'edicate' so to speak.
     
  19. Might Gaine

    Might Gaine The Devil Express

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    In retrospect, I think I can understand how people could have perceived my responses in the last thread as being down on this company. In the previous thread a lot of people were very gung-ho about this being a much better service to AFA's, and in my response I disagreed with them, not because I don't like the service--I've never even tried it--it just seemed too new for me to automatically accept it as some kind of new grading messiah if you will :)  And I also tried to debunk what I felt were myths about AFA--inconsistant grading and careless packagng for shipping--things that I have NEVER seen myself, even after submitting about 50 toys to AFA. So given that, I can see how I came off as being down on CSG. And of course, in this thread I actually do state that I don't like the inflated averaged grades and probably will stay away for that reason. But really, overall, I just think think the whole thing is interesting and I'm interested in hearing other peoples' views.
     

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