Another words go with the flow.

 

And I'm totally cool with that. I'm just saying that anyone who thinks that anyone who prefers androgynous characters isn't necessarily an idiot with no understanding of science or narrative.

 

Thing is you're the one making it happen.

You complain about a problem, but you're the problem. So what if it's enivitable? At least it would take longer without you trying to restart old shit.

You see, nobody has said that.

You said that. Because you're trying to get a rise out of me. Trying to kick up dust that has long since settled. You said yourself you didn't reply because you didn't want to argue then, but now you do? Why? What do you stand to gain from disturbing the peace? Enjoy it while it lasts.

I could pick apart your response, too. Mostly in how you just totally don't get what I'm saying, as clearly evident by your above assumption of what I meant. Never once did I call a single person an idiot. You, however, decided I did. Because it almost seems as though you cannot understand that I could disagree with people on a fundamental level and feel that, factually, their argument is flawed without talking down or implying stupidity. That I can't think someone is wrong and not want to fight about it.

I said my piece, was entirely content, knowing full well there'd be people who disagreed. And that's not a problem. But I just wasn't looking to keep arguing. And most people seemed like-minded, and the roundabout ceased, so I figured we all just got tired of running in circles. Seems I was mistaken.

 

Indeed I am.

But I'm not complaining about the fact that these discussions never die. It's a fact of life on the boards.

And, if this bout of the discussion is over, why are there at least three threads on the first page of the Comics forum consumed by it on and off?

 

*sigh*

You just don't get it? You think because somebody somewhere is pointlessly drudging up old arguements, it must be okay? Or that you just can't stand to let the dust stay settled?

I guess the NAIL in Death of Optimus Prime said it best on his little sign.

"Under conditions of peace, the war-like attack themselves."

 

Somewhere? You mean... Here? Go and look at some nearby comic threads and their last few pages.

What peace? Are you only noticing that this isn't gone again because someone responded to one of your posts specifically?

You've said this SO many times on this subject. You even said it in the post I quoted! It's not that no one opposing you is intellectually capable of understanding you, it's that they legitimately disagree and some of your claims, at least as you have communicated them , are completely outrageous.

I never claimed you did, I used idiot. If what you said was true, than anyone who disagreed wouldn't be well enough informed to discuss the subject and would possibly be a sexist idiot.

That is, anyone who didn't realize it was impossible to imagine or write about androgynous characters in a way that makes them relatable to gendered humans.

As am I. You actually persuaded me over to your side, but I was arguing the point to someone in real life today, and they poked SO many holes in the thought process that I wanted to readdress it on the boards.

 

Galvatron II, I don't think many (any?) of us are against a genderless alien species in principle. But for this franchise, the ship has sailed a very long time ago.

Honestly, if "Spotlight: Arcee" had never happened, I wouldn't want there to be a "Look! Girls!" storyline either. But that storyline wouldn't have needed to happen now if not for "Spotlight: Arcee" and its ramifications.

And being against Arcee, Chromia et al because they look like girls is like being against Megatron because you don't like guns, or Trailbreaker because you don't like alcohol. It's an insulting reaction that fans of those characters can't help but take personally. IDW is a continuity where a flying shark can be a character, so of course the hundreds of female Transformers are fair game. And the only reason the pronouns are not easily dismissed as a translation convention is, wait for it, "Spotlight: Arcee."

 

I would be happy if the SL Arcee never happened; I bet some the male mechs are more female in nature. It is trend I can see happen where the female is not so apparent.

 

This is ultimately my point.

Exactly.

There never existed a problem with genders before Spotlight Arceee.

 

No, I don't. But I don't think the ship has sailed, either, though. For any continuity, not IDW specifically. Obviously the ship is mid-Atlantic crashed on an ice burg there. But the arguments against it in the IDW universe seem to imply that doing a genderless Transformers continuity is either impossible, a terrible idea, or both, and the logic just isn't there to back it up.

All I really want if gender must be involved is an explanation. If the fiction is going to take itself seriously, that is. What works for Rescue Bots, Animated or even Beast Wars won't always work for the comics, which are, nominally the adult fare.

And I don't dislike "girls". I dislike... Well, what I've outlined above.

I dislike Elita-1 because she's just a female version of Prime, to a degree even worse than Batgirl or Supergirl, both of whom at least have their own personality independent of their male counterparts. Elita-1, and the rest of the season 2 girlfriends don't even have an identity! THAT'S offensive.

Chromia is just a generic tough girl. She can be fleshed out though, I have hopes for her.

Arcee has no character. But she was a sniper, which is cool I guess.

And in IDW she's just a comic book crazy bitch from the '90s.

Don't get me started with Prime Arcee, who's literally defined by her "partnerships"...

Pffft... Who else?

Oh! Black Arachnia! Oh yeah, she rocks, I guess.

So, I don't like most of the fembots we have for reasons other than, "they're girls". I wish we had better girls. And that designers weren't afraid to get weird with them like they're not with dude bots.

And reading those last few posts, I'm coming off a bit, well, a lot more hostile than I intended. Sorry about that. I might edit down the douche-iness later.

 

^ No argument on the quality of the offerings to date, but there are many Transformers characters who are flatter than those who have just marinated in suck for decades. Then one author takes a fancy to them and suddenly they're awesome and in the thick of events.

Just put 'em on the board and let the writing do the rest.

And we can agree to disagree over whether IDW or Beast Wars / Prime handled things the "mature" way...

 

Ah. Perhaps I've brought in baggage of other discussions I've had. I'll have to re-evaluate your post, because if that's all you meant, then, yes, I agree.

Well, there was, but it was quite a different problem. It was the writers' inability to write solid female characters. Which we still have a problem with, I guess.

 

I don't like Spotlight Arcee, is it coming off like I do?

I think Prime/Beast Wars handled gender in a way that's acceptable... For an all ages science fantasy cartoon, not necessarily for an adult science fiction comic book universe.

 

*Newbie Jack3Dragon walks into thread sees it just finished a battle, reads thread, wonders what is bukkake, turns and also sees ANOTHER Arcee/gender/sex argument*
GDI not another one!

Oh well. I have to say if there is one thing I will complain about is DC taking for ever...and also no iTunes money to buy the comics so having to wait to buy them and then have an opinion on it but from what I've been seeing form the art....why the heck couldn't get one consistent artist? It looks so confusing. Also another complaint is where is (dont burn me at the stake please) Daniel Witwicky? And also I'm a bit afraid when I just learned that four of my favorite characters are going into Death battle and only might come out either way I lose one of my favs!

 

I am venturing a lot people don't care for Spotlight Arcee.

I am agreeing with women are poorly written in general and I read a lot of comics and sometimes the writers try to hard. Other times the writers allow the gender bias into comics. I am saying this could go both ways female writers can write male characters in a bias way too.

 

THIS

 

I love how some people are fine with them but then are upset they aren't the way they want them to be.

 

I think of it this way: in the OS Battlestar Galactica, the Cylons were completely genderless. If Baltar had built a female-based Cylon to confuse the Colonials, would that suddenly make the rest of the Cylons having always been male? No, it wouldn't. The Cylons never had physical gender, nor gender roles, which is the way it was with IDW TFs. And this is the argument a lot of people are using to attack SL:Arcee. It usually takes looking at things from a different perspective or to detach from the subject matter to see parallels, but it is possible.

 

But if the Cylons reacted to her, unprompted, with "get that icky girl out of our sight!" then...THAT would mean the other Cylons have always been male, or at least weirdly devoted to being not-female.

But your analogy does nothing but point out the problem that you ought to have with "Spotlight: Arcee." It's violently incompatible with your perspective.

 

wow I couldn't have said it better.