Gestalts in WFC2

Discussion in 'Transformers Video Game Discussion' started by scorpio-prime, Jul 9, 2011.

  1. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

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    I debated this topic at length on other forums shortly after the first game was released, about just how exciting Gestalts would be to play as. As far as I'm aware, despite being an important part of the TF franchise for well over two decades, they have never been playable in any TF video game, and I think its about high time a developer cracked this sweet nut.

    The problem was, no matter how many ideas I pitched, no one could agree one exactly how such characters would work. Heres my basic plan:

    1. Characters like Silverbot and Onslaught have their L2 and R2 abilities as normal (using PS3 controls for my example), but now R2 has TWO abilities attached to it - once your Shockwave/Omega Missile has been charged via collecting energon, continuing to do so will begin to charge the COMBINE ability. Basically, in order to activate Gestalt mode, you have to fill your R2 ability twice over.

    2. When COMBINE is activated, your character will shout their team name 'AERIALBOTS/COMBATICONS, UNITE!' as they rise into the air and transform into the torso, whilst the limb team members teleport in (using the same graphical effect as when you use a Nucleon Shock Cannon killstreak) and transform into limbs to complete the transformation.

    This is the part that no one could agree upon. My initial idea is that from all the combiner factions, only the leaders would be playable, leaving the other four team mates relegated to accessories. The problem here was that whilst this was the simplest idea, many team members like Swindle, Air Raid and Brawl have their own unique, recognisable personalities, and it wouldn't do justice to them to simply use them as props for Gestalt transformation thats it.

    Then I suggested that if any of these characters were being played when the COMBINE ability was being used, they would immediately be sucked from their current position and teleported into the combination - this idea annoyed a number of people though, who said that they'd find it very frustrating if they were in the middle of a heated game of Escalation, and suddenly were forced to partake in someone elses combination.

    How could Gestalts work?
     
  2. Josh

    Josh Comic Color-guy

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    ya know i rather do like your idea here

    peoples gripes with how one would work for multiplayer are not unfounded

    i think i'd have to say id rather not have gestalts in multiplayer for that reason


    BUT

    the idea you have there could be quite neat for a singleplayer experience!

    i can imagine a chapter focused around a gestalt team. for character select you can choose any of the 5 members of the team. You play as whoever you select, obviously, and the other 4 are relegated to AI teammates [emphasis on squad playing and tactics]. I think itd be fun as heck to play you and a squad of AI partners, and then build up to combining.

    i think, though, i'd save the combining for the boss battles of the chapter instead of just activating it at will [whenever its charged]. im just thinking about level design here. if you have the ability to be the gestalt whenever then the levels have to be big enough to accomodate that ability anytime. BUT, if you save combining for special moments then you can tailor the levels accordingly for some epic gestalt-use

    but then, all that said, there's the obstacle of co-op play in the campaign. again, you run into the same problem


    the problem is that when you combine with 4 other players, what do the 4 other players do? do they just sit there and operate turrets or do some little mini-games whilst one other player gets to have all the fun?

    how do you do that and make it fun and engaging for everybody?

    i really have no idea. unless, say in co-op, you have one player be a gestalt-able character and anybody else just gets to choose out of a regular bot [like Optimus or someone like that]


    it might be interesting if there was a way to treat a gestalt like vehicles in some games but then that doesnt really mesh well with the fiction. somebody just doesnt walk up to a set of limbs and starts riding them :p 


    its a tough egg to crack but one i hope they do! id love to see them included somewhere somehow
     
  3. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

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    I'd never really given much thought to how they might work in Multiplayer, and wouldn't be too concerned if they were omitted from the mode for balance reasons, but it WOULD be cool if your character could combine into a Gestalt if they build up something rare like a 12 Killstreak or something - I mean, at that point chances are you're utterly outclassing your enemy anyway, so why not combine and crush them? At least they'll have the honour of being obliterated in cool fashion :) 

    Thats actually the most workable idea yet, saving Gestalts for very specific moments during story mode, using them for specially designed levels and boss encounters (imagine a chapter mission where the Aerialbots find themselves separated from their allies and plunged deep into the Cybertronian underworld - they must fight their way back to the surface through mechanical mutants, ghouls and zombies, before finally uniting into Superion to face the gigantic headless Guardian Robot blocking the only escape route. Fun and engaging though that would be however, I think you'd have players then complaining and wishing that they could use Superion in the other modes.

    Given that each mission is tailored for three players (the two other limbs could simply teleport in), you have to somehow create a control scheme that allows for all three to control the Gestalt, so how about this?

    The person playing the torso controls the movement, the two other players each control an arm? This could actually be GREAT fun, when you imagine that the Gestalt carries something like an Ion Displacer on its left arm and a Nucleon Shock Canon on its right - with the arm players cameras mounted somewhere around their shoulder, it means you can now fire in two seperate directions and wreak utter destruction against everyone on screen. If this sounds overpowered, bear in mind that Gestalt mode is pretty much intended to be overwhelming for whoevers facing it (just like in the cartoons), and naturally the criteria for achieving it would be tailored to suit whichever mode the Gestalt was being played in.

    Agreed. Gestalts arn't just some little throwaway fanboy thing, they're a big and distinctive part of Transformers, and including them in the game goes a long way to recapturing those moments of open mouthed awe and joy you felt as a child, when the Decepticons brought their latest terrifying war machine into the fray, and you knew your heroes were doomed - then suddenly in leaps their huge and valiant saviour booming 'HEY YOU! PICK ON SOMEONE YOUR OWN SIZE!' :-D
     
  4. Kaymac

    Kaymac I'M REALLY FEELIN' IT!

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    In Single Player it would be badass if there was a boss battle where you combine to defeat the boss. You'd be playing the level as normal as Bonecrusher, Onslaught, or Motormaster, and at the end of the level, Superion, Computron, and Defensor appear. You control the gestalt of your chosen character in the fight, with the other two controleld by AI, in a three on three combiner battle!
     
  5. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    I guess I'm still one to say that these sort of teams shouldn't be in multiplayer mode at all because there's no fair way to include them and to keep everyone involved at the same time, save for them being a boss of sorts in Escalation mode or what have you... which is the only way I ever see them really being a part of this TPS.

    Adding a puzzle control feature that someone from these boards suggested in some thread months ago, sounded interesting, but not at all like a TPS.

    As cool as it would be to combine with, why is it needed for game play in multiplayer? Is being a big target out in the open a good thing? Headshots or melee attacks would do all five in a heartbeat:( 
     
  6. inturnmike

    inturnmike Well-Known Member

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    I have always liked this idea. I think it would be completely awesome (and do-able) in single player. I think for multiplayer, you would only have the torso characters available, and the kill streak should be timed, lasting for like only 10-20 seconds, before the limbs disengage and fly (or drive) away and disappear. You could have upgraded weapons and shields, for a limited time and it would look amazing! I don't see why this couldn't be done...Also, why wasn't there a gestalt in the new movie? I thought for sure there may be multiple gestalts in it since there was already one (though a goofy one) in rotf...
     
  7. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

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    Supposing they did make it into Multiplayer, as mentioned, they would be VERY hard to initially activate. I'm thinking along the lines of, if you picked Onslaught for your Leader chassis, rather than having the usual 3/5/7 Killstreaks, you'd have 4 (Intercooler) 8 (P.O.K.E) and 12 (Combine). This means that he's initially weaker than the Soundwave chassis (who acquires his Killstreaks far more easily), but should you somehow manage the tricky feat of getting your 12 Killstreak, then the awesome power of Bruticus is yours to mop up the enemy team with - and in Multiplayer, Gestalts are controlled only by the player who activates them, and don't require any of your team mates to combine with you, even if they are playing chassis which would normally form part of the combination (Multiplayer is full of duplicate characters anyway).

    I'd imagine a Gestalt to have something like 4 health bars - however, each of these bars is the equivalent to FIVE regular sized ones, which means that the Gestalt can regenerate massive amounts of energy if its able to avoid damage for a while, and it takes a sustained amount of firepower to cause it any serious harm. With regards to melee attacks, Gestalts utilise a devastating Earthquake stomp much like the Tank/Destroyer enemies, so trying to engage them in close quarters would be a very bad idea. Supposing that you DO somehow manage to destroy the Gestalt though, you'll see its four limbs fly off and teleport out (accompanied by explosions and a group scream) and the torso transforms back into robot mode and falls to the ground in critical status (like when a Leader has Reserve Power Cells or Escalation mode), where you can then finish them off or their team mates can rescue them.

    Yes, in modes like Escalation and Campaign, combination would be timed to maybe around 30 seconds or so (unless the Gestalt combination is a specific part of a boss encounter or something). Also, if you attempt to combine in an area too small, then you get the same sound and 'cannot transform here' message as when trying to use your vehicle mode in cramped spaces.
     
  8. Philip164

    Philip164 Board Member

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    1. Give the players who play the limbs a option where the whole team need to fill there energy twice and then all activate the ability at once if on player is late or doesn't agree to the combo none of the players combine.

    2. Introduce a new mulitiplayer mode where you play as the leader giving commands to NPC's
     
  9. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    Yeah, but headshots have always been known to do great damage. It's been a while since I played WFC, but I'm pretty sure headshots did a person in in a heartbeat. When I fought big guys, I never tried to go toe to toe with them, I fought them at a distance and the game was nice enough to provide me with the tools to do so. If you're aim was dead on and you had the ammo/skills no fight was too hard on any setting.

    Gestalt or not, a headshot should still be a damaging thing, no?
     
  10. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

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    Given that a Gestalts head is around the 4-5 times the size as a regular TFs then it stands to reason that it would also be alot more heavily armoured - as far as I'm aware, the Tank/Destroyer enemies in the game, which are roughly Gestalt sized don't recieve any additional damage when taking head shots. Still, you COULD offer a reward for a direct hit to the Gestalts EYES by causing a stun effect like an EMP grenade.
     
  11. Transformed

    Transformed 神戸 Member

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    I figured the Gestalts would be Omega Supreme size, a bit larger than the tank guys, but who knows what High Moon Studios thinks is a good size. But what you're saying is a team of 3 - 5 gamers all shooting at the big guy's head wouldn't put a dent in the guy? Crazy. Online play and MP don't function the same way. I took way more hits before dying in campaign mode compared to MP mode, I figure the same mechanics would apply.

    That said, the big guy's head should be just as weak as any others and even if it was four times as strong as a smaller one, wouldn't everyone target the big guys weak spot; it would be a big target after all. I know I would.
     
  12. Torque

    Torque The WORDSMITH

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    perhaps instead of laying down turrets, you call in soldiers. he acts like a turret and stands there, shooting. summon all the soldiers you need, THEN combine with them ^_^
     
  13. The F.N.G.

    The F.N.G. Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest, I thought this thread was going in an entirely different direction. Playing as a gestalts combined form is not what I was expecting. I was actually expecting ideas on how combiners could be worked into the campaign mode as enemies. Introduce the individual robots over the course of a couple missions, then have all of them come together and combine for one hell of a boss battle.
     
  14. scorpio-prime

    scorpio-prime Dreamer with fists

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    Well I figured out a way to make this idea work in Escalation and Campaign, which eliminates the need to use your teammates for the combination and thus forcing them to watch and wait till the 30 second Gestalt time is up.

    In Campaign mode, Gestalts wouldn't be an ability you can use at any time, but rather set pieces which feature in specific boss fights, short destruction based 'assault' type sections of levels (like say, a full frontal attack on Kaons gates),and various cut scenes. In these segments, Gestalt combinations are achieved in traditional style with the team leader giving the order and linking with his team mates.

    In Escalation mode however, the combination is achieved PCC style with 'Auto-drones and Decepti-clones' (Aerial-drones, Protecto-drones, Stunti-clones, Terror-clones etc) forming the limbs instead, which are basically just exact copies of your team mates, but assumed to be mere automatons rather than sentient beings. This way, no one has to be forced into combination just because of the character they picked, and is a very simple way of explaining away why Sinnertwin is still running around independantly at the same time as he's forming Abominus leg.
     
  15. Sinnertwin

    Sinnertwin Banned

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    If there are gestalts in WFC2, playing as them will likely be a story-mode only thing.
     
  16. Mechafire

    Mechafire Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    Gestalts should totally be in multiplayer, with each player controlling an individual body part.

    Oh, the hilarity that would ensue. :D 
     

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