Compelling argument.

And yet all those factors are not evidence that including the Matrix was a mistake. They're just circumstances, to which you're assigning your own meaning.

The presence of an actual drawing of the Matrix isn't evidence that its presence could have been deliberate? Huh.

And you're being approximately 27% rude. Anyway...

Dude. By that logic, ANYTHING in the episode could have been a mistake.

(shrug) To you, maybe. To me (and others), maybe not. As illustrious transfan Zobovor writes:

You mean, there is nothing in the story other than its actual presence onscreen.

Look, I understand why people think it was a mistake. I get it. But I think it's equally possible -- given how slapdash this episode is -- that the mistake is not the Matrix's inclusion, but its inclusion without clarification.

Oh wait, you added another post...

Fine. It establishes that he escaped in a thing which looked exactly like the Matrix. Does that sit better with you?

The dialogue says he escaped. The coinciding visuals show the Matrix rising up and away. The dialogue doesn't say the word "Matrix" but the events that take place in this scene convey that meaning. There's no other meaning that could be inferred from what's presented onscreen. That's all I'm saying. Presuming that it's a mistake, based on circumstances around the episode's production, is not invalid... But it's not a presumption based on what's presented onscreen.

I don't need to "present any evidence." The evidence is what we see onscreen. I've tried to present an explanation for why what we saw was put onscreen.

Compelling argument.

And yet all those factors are not evidence that including the Matrix was a mistake. They're just circumstances, to which you're assigning your own meaning.

The presence of an actual drawing of the Matrix isn't evidence that its presence could have been deliberate? Huh.

And you're being approximately 27% rude. Anyway...

Dude. By that logic, ANYTHING in the episode could have been a mistake.

(shrug) To you, maybe. To me (and others), maybe not. As illustrious transfan Zobovor writes:

You mean, there is nothing in the story other than its actual presence onscreen.

Look, I understand why people think it was a mistake. I get it. But I think it's equally possible -- given how slapdash this episode is -- that the mistake is not the Matrix's inclusion, but its inclusion without clarification.

Oh wait, you added another post...

Fine. It establishes that he escaped in a thing which looked exactly like the Matrix. Does that sit better with you?

The dialogue says he escaped. The coinciding visuals show the Matrix rising up and away. The dialogue doesn't say the word "Matrix" but the events that take place in this scene convey that meaning. There's no other meaning that could be inferred from what's presented onscreen. That's all I'm saying. Presuming that it's a mistake, based on circumstances around the episode's production, is not invalid... But it's not a presumption based on what's presented onscreen.

The evidence that suggests the image of the Matrix used in the episode was deliberately drawn as The Matrix is that it was drawn as the Matrix. The burden of proof here is on proving that it wasn't supposed to be the Matrix. And I've yet to see any compelling evidence or arguments to bring me around to that opinion. It might be true, but based on what I see and understand, I don't buy it. Like I said at the beginning of all this.

What was? Using the Matrix in place of a space shuttle? I don't follow you here. (I might be tired...)

 

Well, I wish I'd phrased my explanation better, then. I don't know what I wrote that seemed rude, but I do totally agree with you that the written word has a way of confusing us since it doesn't convey feelings. (God knows I've misinterpreted text messages so many times it's almost comical.)

Moving on.  

 

the argument follow that statement and you know it

I never claimed it was solid evidence it was a mistake but it is certainly circumstantial evidence ..... and the fact that it was never mentioned in the dialogue is extremely strong circumstantial evidence.

On the other hand you claimed that the usage of the image was in fact deliberate evidence that it was intended to be the Matrix..... and that's where you're wrong

well I meant to say solid evidence so my bad there

But on that considering that it is a drawing in an episode of an animated series with quite a few animation errors from a season with the most animation errors and a series with plenty of Animation errors....

No the presence of the drawing in this episode is not strong evidence to indicate it's deliberate use

maybe you're being oversensitive either way I apologize since being rude was never my intent there....... but my wife tells me I'm so damn good at being rude that I never realized it when I am

anything in any episode could be a mistake the idea is to then evaluate what we see with what we hear and what we're told and see where they match up

We've seen Decepticons drawn with Autobot symbols or we should just assume they switch sides or is that something you would have learned if it was in the dialogue

We've seen other character models use as shuttles and then destroyed are we to assume the character really died?

No we don't make those assumptions based on only what we saw but what was said in the episode

so he shares your opinion what's your point?

I'm talking here about the likelihood of what you're suggesting, The Matrix is not mentioned in the episode in any dialogue
It's not in any script we seen for this episode
The writer of this episode has never written an episode that featured the Matrix and this was his only season 3 episode
The animation studio used is not one of the common ones

I see no reason whatsoever that anybody working on this episode would have even known what the Matrix was much less decided to added in at the last second

the image used is not evidence of the presence of the actual Matrix on screen

Or are you going to argue the presence of Sideswipe standing beside Megatron in a season two episode at the septic on headquarters is solid evidence that sideswipe was a double agent

Look, I understand why people wants to think it was a deliberate placement in the story but the date I find no reason to consider it likely

Anything is Possible and I'll even give enough to say that maybe in this case this is equally possible but nobody is making a case here for its likelihood given the facts of the production of the series as we know it

 

I most certainly do not. A statement like that would lose you points on the debate team.

No, the fact that the Matrix was never mentioned in the dialogue is weak circumstantial evidence that its presence is a mistake. The hard truth is that the Martix is seen onscreen and we do not know why. The Matrix's presence onscreen without any clarification or context is strong evidence of sloppy episode production, for sure. Is it evidence that it wasn't supposed to be there? No.

(Man, I really need to see the original script again. I've seen it before but now I can't seem to track it down. Anyone got a link?)

What could be stronger evidence that it was deliberately used than the fact that it was used?

I've been told I'm oversensitive more than once, that's for sure.

Thank you sir.   Same here.

Seems legit. ;-)

Anyway, In the cases of inaccurate symbols, incorrect character models used, and things of that nature, they're more easily identified as mistakes. This case? Not the same.

Again, I'd really love to see a copy of the original script. It's been a while. And I don't mean a transcript, I mean the actual script. Chris McFeely has (or had) access to it, I remember discussing it with him.

That isn't relevant, that doesn't tell us anything.

Also not relevent. I mean, they got plenty of stuff right, and gave us better animation than in any other episode of the show, they're clearly not complete morons.

By the same token I see no reason whatsoever to think that that anyone working on this episode would not have known what the Matrix was. And I don't know (nor have an opinion about) whether the Matrix's appearance late in the episode is or isn't a last-minute addition in the production process. Hell, for all we know that scene might have been animated first. It's not like an episode's scenes are animated in the order they occur.

I am.

Anyway, if you don't agree, that's fine. But consider the matter from this perspective: Considering CotP was written as Unicron's origin story, and considering the explicit connection between Uni and the Matrix, why would the creators of this episode not include the Matrix?

 

I know. That's why I said this:

In response to this:

 

Maybe we I miss understood each other somewhere down the line no hard feelings buddy

 

hardly since it was part of one overall statement

Sorry but the opposite is the case

It's an episode with many animation mistakes from a season with many animation mistakes in a Series with many animations mistakes

Let alone the strong circumstantial evidence of the possibility of a mistake add in the fact that it's not mentioned in dialog only makes it stronger

The hard truth is that the IMAGE the Martix is seen onscreen and we do not know why.

The Images presence onscreen without any clarification or context is also strong circumstantial evidence that it could be a mistake

Evidence of sloppy episode production, is also circumstantial evidence to support the mistake Idea

I've been looking and the only thing I could find these days Are transcripts.....and those are usually written after the episode is finalized so they are of no use

Another number on these boards by the name of Chris freely I believe, Who is well knowledged and trusted on these issues here commented on this issue about the script in another topic recently and said that the script itself really doesn't have any evidence that can help the argument

With that argument soundwave is an autobot since we saw him with an auto bot symbol, or frenzy is the same size as buticus, and defedsaur and hotspot can coexist separate from each other

Sorry but the fact that it was used is not evidence it was deliberate and whoever

To directly answer your question one line in the dialogue at least mentioning the matrix

No worries buddy

sorry but with the lack of any supporting evidence in the dialogue these cases are exactly the same

it's certainly relevant

Based on what we know when the communication between writers and editors....and based on what we know about the production time of these episodes there's no reason to believe that the writer of this episode would've even known what the matrix was or that it should be included

Remember season three was being produced at the same time as the movie so it's not like the writer would have known much about the events of the film

This is also relevant because if it's not in the script then how would the animators have known what the matrix world and why it should be used and his connection to unicron?

then no insult intended but you're denying the facts that I know you're aware of.

I seen you participate in other discussions about the production order and practices of the series and I know you read articles on the same issues before

Based on what we've been told on how these episodes were produced there's plenty of reason to believe that those working on this episode itself would have little to no knowledge of the matrix

There certainly trying to but you're not succeeding

Believe me I considered that but the undeniable truth is that it would not be the first time in this series that a plot point Was forgotten,completely dropped or ignored

NoW consider this if it was truly intended then why is there not a single piece of dialogue supporting the idea in the finished product

It makes no sense whatsoever that they would neglect to mention it if it was their intent to make the connection

 

None here either.

 

Exactly? I could debate that but I won't I concede it looks like the matrix

But sideswipe look like he was on the decepticon side when he was seen at their HQ

The dialogue says he escaped. The coinciding visuals show the image of something that looked like the Matrix rising up and away.

The dialogue doesn't say the word "Matrix" but the events that take place in this scene convey only that he escaped and nothing more when you consider the fact that this series is known for using the wrong character models as shuttles and ships

Speculating that it may have been a mistake, based on circumstances around this episode's production and the production of this season and the Series as a whole is not only valid but it's logical

Claiming it was deliberate simply based on what was presented onscreen, with no supporting dialogue and in the face of what mistakes we know of is illogical

you claimed it was deliberate so yes you have to present evidence to back that claim

And simply being on screen is not evidence of deliberately use of the image As being the matrix as we know it

The evidence proves that the image of the matrix was used......but based on what we know of the errors in this episode,season and Series The burden of proof here is on proving that they knew what the image was when they used it

No using other character animation models as space shuttles

 

Altered Prime, it seems you and I have different understandings of what constitutes evidence, representation, relevance, logic, meaning, and facts. Since we're both people of at least some intelligence and rationality, I'm going to guess that our disagreement is probably an issue of semantics and perspective more than anything else. I don't bear you any ill will, but those subjects are just far too deep and broad for me to see any benefit in pursuing here. So I concede. You're right, I'm wrong. I give up, because I just don't care enough. #thatsgoingonmytombstone

 

  at that.

 

No need to bend that far bud

It's all good between us

 

It's a fun little episode, but the one thing I don't like about it is that the origin for Unicron is weak. This giant, planet-sized, planet-munching, highly intelligent, somewhat snarky machine of death... was made by a monkey-looking guy. That's spectacularly disappointing, in my opinion.

 

Why? Why does every universal power has to be a cosmic horror?

 

It just seems like an anti-climax that Unicron, this ancient and powerful entity who munches planets for breakfast, was created by this screeching monkey. It'd be funny if Unicron were a boring character, but he's the biggest threat in the Transformers universe, and on top of it, he's confident, superior, and looks down on Megatron/Galvatron and the other Transformers. He even mocks Megatron and makes him his Starscream. Unicron is an interesting character, and I don't mind him being some kind of super-weapon that went out of control, Primacron is a disappointment as a creator for him. Primacron doesn't have any real motivation and he doesn't have much of a personality either. He's just screechy and needs Grimlock to think of a solution to the problem he created.
Maybe if you had two races who were at war, each side dedicating all their time and energy to building the ultimate weapon, until one side invented Unicron, and the other side created the Matrix of Leadership to stop him However, before the Matrix can be used, Unicron devours the planet and the Matrix is lost. Then, Unicron decides he doesn't want to take orders and turns on them, and sets about eating other worlds as that's what's in his programming. Or, making him some experimental weapon developed by the Quintessons, or something like that. Heck, even making Primacron a more impressive, interesting character would have worked, rather than just making him a guy who creates super-weapons because "evulz lol".
I'll admit I prefer Unicron being some ancient powerful horror whose origin is shrouded in mystery, but has connections to Cybertron/Primus, but if you're going to go the route of making him an artificial construct, I feel the origin of a character like Unicron deserves time and respect in trying to delve into what mindset someone had to be in to create something like Unicron.

 

I can understand that the cosmic horror aspect is what most people would expect out of an entity thats supposed to be playing with Godly powers, but to my logic it wouldnt be strange at all to have just a 'normal' life form that posses super intelligence to be able to build such a thing. Oh well opinions...

 

I know, and like I said, I'm not completely opposed to the idea of Unicron being an out-of-control super-weapon that achieved sentience, but a lot of the disappointment does stem from Primacron himself being a completely dull, uninteresting character with no motivation.

 

I presume Primacron was kind of a mad scientist cliche, building super planet-killing entities to extort power/money/whatever from worlds (or maybe just "FOR SCIENCE!") ,then losing control.

It's pretty standard for the TF cartoon before other media started adding more grandiose and supernatural elements - The Transformers were created by weird ancient aliens, and Unicron was created by a different weird ancient alien.

 

Sigh, alright I'll take a crack at this and this is merely my observations within the episode AND the subsequent source material, such as the Botcon Comics and the Japanese timeline retcon. And the end of the day all of it seems a big mess. The biggest problem is with the writer of the episode, Donald Glut. He wrore it haphazardly because he simply didn't care if it fit continuity wise. He has also gone on record stating that he doesn't care either.

The other thing to take into consideration is the origin presented in the Marvel Comics. Simon Furman introduced all of this because he applied concepts from the Movie and the cartoon into his stories after he took over after Bob Budiansky.

From the Botcon comics, which were finished in text format in its finale, Vector Sigma was the embodiment of Primus and the Quintessons merely shackled his power in to create their slave races.

From the Japanese continuity, Primacron's assistant escaped within a shell and became Vector Sigma, the embodiment of Primus. The Quintessons used his traveling shell, the Matrix. He is also the Oracle in Beast Machines.

To me this is more confusing than it should be. I'm no authority on the subject. I like to see things from a merging perspective, since the whole multiverse likes to include Primus and Unicron at the center of it all. So, from a CARTOON perspective, adding in all of the various sources and allowing it to flow coherently is like this (again I'm adding in my own take here, so see it as you will) -

The One (God, if you beleive in Him) creates Primus and Unicron. Their battle traps Unicron in an asteroid and Primus into a world full of wildlife. The enigmatic space monkey, Primacron, unknowingly helps change an asteroid into Unicron's body. Knowing this was going to happen, Primus creates a being, we could call the Oracle, whose life force is housed within the Matrix shell, to give life to Primacron's assistant. The Oracle is unsuccessful in stopping Primacron from doing this and is inadvertantly killed in Unicron's attack. His essence escapes and returns the Matrix to Primus and resides at the planet where he called the primitives to stop Primacron's creation, Tornedron. Primus then creates the 13 to battle and stop Unicron, one of which becomes the Fallen. His core is Vector Sigma and he also creates the Oracle shell program present in Beast Machines. One of the 13 creates the Quintessons on a planet Quintessa, who end up killing HIM!

From here timelines diverge. So the cartoon's origin starts here. The Quintessons come to the world where Primus resides, and kill off the organic life attempting to create techno-organics to be their slaves. They find remaining members of the 13, enslave them, entrap Primus's power and mass produce his creations as the races of Transformers. They turn a once organic world into a metallic factory until the Transformers, led by one of the 13, Alpha Trion expel them from their world. The stories told within the Matrix are from past Prime leader's point of view and they do not know about Primus as the source of all Transformers life. The Quintessons beleive Cybertron belongs to them as their birthright from their creator, Quintus Prime.

I hope you've enjoyed my merging storyline. It's the only way I can piece it together allowing for various things to fit in. I intend to make a Youtube video about it soon, so if you guys have any input feel free.

 

YES. This. Exactly. The inevitable principles of "continuity drift" lead us inexorably to what you've just described.