G1 - How do the Decepticons not win??!

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by EightiesKid, May 27, 2012.

  1. EightiesKid

    EightiesKid G1 archivist TFW2005 Supporter

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    So here is something that always bugged me. I haven't seen this topic around here before, and I'd be interested to get some opinions here. Be forewarned, this is a long post!

    The G1 toyline had a really good balance of power theme. You had an Autobot and Decepticon Communicator, Autobot and Decepticon tapes, Auto/Decep Cities, City Commanders, Headmasters, Targetmasters, sub-teams, etc. So when you got down to it, there was a good balance of power, and either side could win any given fight.

    However, if you counted the Combiners / Super Robots, the Autobots were totally screwed! If the Decepticons launched an all out attack with every single one of them participating (similar to the idea in the alternate universe Wolverine story "Old Man Logan"), I don't see how the Autobots can pull off a victory absent some miracle.

    So follow me through the road here:

    ________________________

    You had 3 Autobot Combiners in Defensor, Superion and Computron. When you throw in Omega Supreme, you've got a total of 4 Super Robots. A lot of firepower and raw might right there.

    But the Decepticons had 6, count them SIX Super Robots. Devastator, Bruticus, Menasor, Predaking Abominus and Pirannhacon. A couple qualifiers: I'm counting from 1984 to 1987, with Pirannhacon from 1988, and I'm leaving out Monstructor and the combining tape squakbox. I'm also counting US continuity only, and not including the later Japanese series with the train bots and others.

    So just match up the super robots, and the Autobots can start getting ready to be one with the matrix, because you'd have two extra Decepticon Super-robots crashing around kicking pipe and taking names.

    If we go by animation continuity, you've got Devastator vs. Omega Supreme, Bruticus vs. Defensor, Menasor vs. Superion and Abominus vs. Computron. Each of those four battles could go either way, but if we had a real knock down drag-out for all the marbles, even the winners of those battles would be beaten up pretty bad and not able to do a lot more, so these four battles would likely cancel each other out.

    Meanwhile . . . you've got Predaking on the hunt, taking down Autobots left and right, while Pirannhacon obliterates anyone coming close to him, particularly if he's in the water. Now I suppose you could argue that Sky Lynx could take Predaking, like in the Sunbow series, but I highly doubt that. In all likelihood, Predaking grabs Skylynx by the neck, rips his head off, and then when the lynx jumps at him, Predaking cleaves him in half with his sword. Bye bye Skylynx, and bye bye most other Autobots as well!

    If you go by the size of the G1 toys, the combiners are all scaled about equal: Devastator, Bruticus, Defensor, Abominus, Pirannhacon, Defensor, Superion and Computron are all about the same size. Then you have Predaking who is larger and bulkier than the rest, and Omega Supreme, who is about the same size as Predaking.

    So in this version of the battle, the matchups are the same except now you've got the similarly sized Omega vs. Predaking, instead of Omega vs. Devastator. So that leaves us with Devastator stomping around yelling "PREPARE FOR EXTERMINATION! Despite Springer's famous line, I think a whole LOT of autobots are gonna be dying that night.

    ______________________________

    So how in the world do the Autobots pull out a win? I can really only see three ways:

    1) Reinforcements. Prime gets the brain bots together and tells Wheeljack, Perceptor, Ratchet and the rest to combine some others like the Dinobots into Super Robots. That leaves us with someone like Dino - King? That would have been a sight to behold, and I've heard rumblings that the Dinobots were intended to combine at one point. While we're at it, maybe they combine some of the Autobot cars a la Menasor as well. So now we're more even with Six Super-Robots a piece.

    Or maybe the autobots dig up a few more guardians and create a few more Omega Supreme-like robots to swell their ranks. But this is unlikely, since the guardians are supposedly all destroyed following the TF uprising against the Quintessons.

    2) Darn good strategy - Decombining the Combiners. We've seen autobots take down super robots in the comics and in the cartoon, most often the super-robot battles end when one super-robot gets de-combined. One side fires and scores enough hits on the super robot to break them into their component pieces, or you get something like Frenzy and Rumble smashing the floor in Astrotrain like in the 1986 movie to de-combine Devastator. We also saw Magnus take down Menasor in the TF v. GI Joe comic series, the one where Serpentor merges with the Decepticons, by ramming into Menasor at full speed in truck mode. Menasor also gets taken down in the IDW series when Optimus and several others team up and take advantage of the personality conflicts within the Stunticons to defeat Menasor. Bottom line: it can be done, albeit with much difficulty.

    3) Random good guy luck. Prime opens the matrix, the Dinobots take down Devastator, Predaking slips on a banana peel, Bumblebee tears Bruticus a new one, and we roll the credits on another episode. Not sure if I see this happening in a more "realistic" fight, but the formula often worked with 80's cartoons.

    Anyways, I'm curious to hear what others think about this. I'm thinking that I'm not the only one that ever stared at the 80's toy catalogs and wondered why the heck the Decepticons got so much more combiner love than the Autobots, thereby creating a disturbance in the balance of power. The way I see it, the Autobots are most likely screwed.
     
  2. Seeker

    Seeker Time Lord

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    Intangibles that might not be seen on paper I guess. If you look at the old tech specs the cons have the bots outgunned too but I guess the autobot's superior individual numbers made up for that.
     
  3. Erland

    Erland Well-Known Member

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    tl;dr
     
  4. Alucard77

    Alucard77 Kaon Gladiator Champion

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    Well, the Decepticons would lose, because they would celebrate their victory prematurely and then begin to fight amongst themselves for total control.

    Also, if the Autobots did the same exact thing with an all out offensive. They would outnumber the Decepticons heavily! Unless the insecticons went on some crazy replication binge.
     
  5. johnchow604

    johnchow604 Well-Known Member

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    Bumblebee would shoot the 3 dots at the back of Bruticus in under a minute and that's one less gestalt.

    Based on the episode, "The Secret of Omega Supreme", Omega Supreme would easily beat Devastator.

    Metroplex would take down Trypticon and help out in defeating the Decepticon combiners.
     
  6. EightiesKid

    EightiesKid G1 archivist TFW2005 Supporter

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    Hmm, that's actually a very plausible outcome, particularly the part about Metroplex helping to take down the combiners after finishing off Trypticon, it always bugged me that he seemed to defeat Trypticon so easily.

    On Devastator v. Omega, Omega was clearly stronger in "The Secret of Omega Supreme." However, my opinion on Devastator changed totally after seeing the 1986 movie when Devastator is portrayed as the ultimate badass super warrior. Based on that depiction, I think Devastator could take Omega. Or if you switch it up and have Omega fight Predaking, I think you've got a battle for the ages - the main event. Not sure who wins that one, not even sure that we get a winner really, most likely we just get a survivor, like when Megs battles Prime in the 86 movie.
     
  7. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    That's the thing, though. The Decepticons are not a united front. Different commanders in charge of different units are all off conducting different operations, both against the Autobots and each other. If the various Con factions decided on a truce with each other and launched a combined attack, the Autobots would've been history.
     
  8. PowermasterJazz

    PowermasterJazz Well-Known Member

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    Because they're the bad guys. The bad guys never win!
     
  9. The Madness

    The Madness News Credits: -13

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    In much of the accompanying G1 fiction the Decepticons were the dominant force on Cybertron for millions of years, with small pockets of Autobot resistance.

    While the comic gave the Autobots greater territory than the cartoon, there were multiple Decepticon warlords to contend with. For all intents and purposes the Decepticons were winning the war pre-2005, regardless of their performance in individual battles. Cybertron was just such a resource hog that it didn't seem that much of an advantage.

    As to how this affects how you play with your toys... I have no answer :) 

    The Movie was as close to an all-out attack as we got in fiction, and it all came down to Prime and Megatron in the end.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  10. Waverider

    Waverider Supreme Dude TFW2005 Supporter

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    80s writing
    G1 was one long toy commercial
    What PowermasterJazz said
     
  11. opt1musaber

    opt1musaber Victory Saber's Recruit

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    I remember one episode Omega Supreme taking on Devastator and Menasor (or some other combiner, can't remember) and beating both without much trouble. I don't see Predaking similarly sized to Omega Supreme either, when Omega was on screen he was always portrayed as a towering robot, which he was, the others not so much. As big as Predaking was I think he would get crushed by Omega just going from those cartoons. Also, what about Fortress Maximus? Fort Max + Metroplex + Omega, those 3 alone could take on the all the Decepticon combiners easily imo, all the small decepticons would be like flies to them.
     
  12. LigerPrime

    LigerPrime Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Decepticons did win. If you watch the G1 episodes, the Cons ruled and controlled Cybertron. In MTMTE part 1, Shockwave told Megatron that he will ensure that things will be in place when the latter had plans to follow the Autobots.

    In fire in the sky, Megatron made Skyfire recite the Cybertronian pledge. This explicitly implies that they Cons were the ruling parties. Optimus and his batch were rebel fighters.

    The animated movie also stated that the Autobots were preparing to retake their home world.

    In the end, I believe the reason why the bots won was because of Unicron. After his attack on the planet, many of the Cons perished and their defenses broken. Din't forget the Cons were leaderless. Galvatron was defeated and thrown into orbit by Rodimus, Starscream was er, killed and so to was Shockwave (according to the script). So I believe the remaining Autobots just took out the remaining Cons in the confusion.
     
  13. Autoclot

    Autoclot Well-Known Member

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    If you go off the cartoon stories, it was down to tactics.

    Rather than Megatron trying to get rid of the Autobots, most of his plans revolved around harvesting fuel, and only dealing with the Autobots when they showed up to stop him. With that approach, his forces were likley not operating at full power. He really should have done what his TFA namesake did and stockpile power, holding off on major attacks until he was at close to full fighting strength.

    Also, he tended to go for some impressively dumb schemes. Anyone who thinks that building a giant, flying purple griffin is a valid alternative to stockpiling resources is on an intellectual par with cartoon Grimlock, and doesn't deserve to win :) 
     
  14. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    Because G1 Megatron was a tool. Had the G1 Decepticosn been led by someone like BW, TFA or even Prime Megatron. They would have easily won.
     
  15. JokerFC

    JokerFC Gaelic Hardcase

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    yeah IMO the cons did win until the events of TF:the Movie.....think about it the Autobots were driven underground on Cybertron.

    now I know the movie had other motives but eff me the Cons were in control there too.....Prowl,Ironhide,Ratchet,Brawn,Wheeljack,Windcharger,Trailbreaker,Mirage and Red Alert all killed before the cons really took a casualty at all.......

    if Prime and Unicron hadnt decimated their leadership I dont think they would have had too much hassle.....dont forget Shockwave dies offscreen too in the attack on Cybertron.
     
  16. wildfly

    wildfly Right notes. Wrong order.

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    Syndication.

    After 20 minutes everything goes back to the way it was at the start.
     
  17. EightiesKid

    EightiesKid G1 archivist TFW2005 Supporter

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    Hmm, interesting stuff here. I had always thought that the Decepticons took over Cybertron in a story that would have occurred pre-movie, and post season 2. That would have led to the establishment of the two moon bases. But it's a good point, in MTMTE the Autobots do appear to be running a resistance movement rather than a battle between equal factions. The comic also hints at this in the US continuity.

    When I look at the toys I usually have Predaking matched up against Omega Supreme. Their toys are sized about equally (and awesomely), and Omega is the "last line of defense" while Predaking is the "the closest thing to a perfect fighting machine that the Decepticons have . . . no known weaknesses." I think that's the battle to watch.

    The TF vs. GI Joe comic series where Serpentor takes over the Decepticons actually addresses some of what I talk about, the different Decepticon factions unite and attack. Omega Supreme gets up and says that no one will pass while he stands. Then he looks up and sees Predaking, Pirannhacon and another Decep Combiner staring at him, who say "Then Omega Supreme shall stand no more." In a later panel we see Omega take a big fall, as the 3 on 1 numbers overwhelm him. In looking at the toy lineup, I keep thinking this is what would happen with 6 Decepticon super robots vs. 4 Autobot SR's.
     
  18. Jazz342

    Jazz342 Well-Known Member

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    Most of the gestalts did not have combined brain power, they were either stupid or unfocused. Menasor was scizofrenic.
     
  19. Kranix

    Kranix Banned

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    lets just say it this way, the shows had to show us the value of right and wrong etc etc... just like gi joe always beat cobra when being outnumbered 50 to 1, the autobots in theory will always win and show us some skewed lesson in the process. realistically, just based on brutality the decepticons shouldve slaughtered the autobots with only enough left to make the next episode a tutorial on repairing junked autobots.
     
  20. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    They didn't have enough burning spirit.
     

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