G1 animation errors Rhino 's fault.

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Rodimus, Jun 9, 2007.

  1. Rodimus

    Rodimus The Prime Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    Posts:
    4,678
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Likes:
    +4
    For along time I've thought that the animation errors that were on the DVDs were not on my VHS tapes of the original 80s broadcasts of the show. Now I found something on youtube that proves this is true and I thought you guys would like to see it since many of the complaints here are about the shows animation errors.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtCQaRAfIgc&mode=related&search=

    This clip is only of one sample of one episode yet it contains more errors on Rhino's behalf than I care to count. The actual broadasted footage had all of those errors fixed. Rhino never used the actual final masters. They used the bloopers reels instead.

    I feel like I got ripped off with my DVDs. If Sony ever comes out with the right versions, I might be inclined to buy them.

    And for all those that missed out on the DVDs the first time and with the new people that we'll be getting to know from the movie, I really hope a better company re-releases the DVDs and in with the CORRECT final masters this time.
     
  2. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Posts:
    4,480
    News Credits:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +56
    There were *plenty* of errors in the finished masters too, so's you'd know. It was really only a few episodes in Season 1 that got hit with this crap from Rhino, who used these particular masters because they had greater picture clarity, not being aware of the amount of uncorrected mistakes they contained.
     
  3. Bumble Prime

    Bumble Prime all the time

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Posts:
    2,850
    Trophy Points:
    201
    Likes:
    +0
    wow that sucks.......
     
  4. iikagen

    iikagen Hates Bumblebee!

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2007
    Posts:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Likes:
    +0
  5. RoboticPlanet

    RoboticPlanet Exclusively Exclusive

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Posts:
    2,999
    News Credits:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    206
    Likes:
    +13
    Heh, I've never noticed this before since I've somehow not purchased the DVDs yet. I loved the Dinobot dialog where Sludge and Slag talk but the animation just shows Sludge.
     
  6. Shaun_C

    Shaun_C The REAL One True fan Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2003
    Posts:
    7,121
    Trophy Points:
    251
    Likes:
    +0
    http://www.transformersforever.com/ Take a look at their G1 Episode synopsis section. There are WAY more errors in G1 that WEREN'T Rhino's fault. So before we hate on Rhino for what they did. We should remember how many errors existed before Rhino. And like Chris McFeely said, the Rhino errors are mainly in a select few epsiodes in the Season 1 set. Any other errors were there before and aren't Rhino's fault
     
  7. Rodimus

    Rodimus The Prime Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    Posts:
    4,678
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Likes:
    +4
    Thanks for the links guys!

    Though Shaun C, aren't all those DVD captures? ;) 


    Even so I took a quick look at the episode "Atlantis Arise" and alot of the stuff he lists as animation errors just sound like needless nitpicking to me. I mean like a picture of Soundwave saying "I hope soundwave is water proof". How is that an animation error? It was written in the story? Or like the picture where Starscream hits Nergill who's standing by a couple of his guards and there is not explanation or anything really noticable. All it says is "error".

    It should also be noted that in cel animation when you transition from one frame to the next they have to draw the character in his proper place for the next frame in the transition frame so at time is you pause at just the right microsecond it might look like there's 2 of them. I know this from editing Transformers clips for a video where I had to find just the right frame to cut.

    Anyway, I like seeing the comparisons. And like you guys said, most of them are just noticable on the season 1 set. After that they seem to be okay from what I can tell. It's not like I spend every day studdying the VHS broadcasted episodes either. Digital is so much easier.
     
  8. Soundatron

    Soundatron A Blight Upon The Land

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Posts:
    991
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    it would be nice if we could get a fixed G1 rerelease, have everything completely remastered, all animation errors and voiceovers (remeber Megatron being voiced by Shockwave in Episode 4) lol. But of course that will NEVER happen!
     
  9. Greyryder

    Greyryder Kitbashed

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Posts:
    4,585
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Likes:
    +0
    Maybe they could finally give Rumble and Frenzy the proper colors.
     
  10. Dirge121

    Dirge121 Eat the chikums

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Posts:
    9,568
    News Credits:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    227
    Likes:
    +24
    Ebay:
    Twitter:
    YouTube:
    Tumblr:
    Wasnt there also a scene in G1 where Thrust attacks a city, but it was put onto the DVD backwards, so the whole scene was in reverse?

    (It was mentioned on the UK season 1 DVD extra's for 'Season 2 animation mistakes')
     
  11. Chris McFeely

    Chris McFeely Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2004
    Posts:
    4,480
    News Credits:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    222
    Likes:
    +56
    It was in reverse on the BLOOPERS section of the DVD. In the episode itself, it was played in the right way - indeed, it was this way in the finished episode way back when, too, so presumably it being backwards was some sort of a doof in the production master that was corrected for the finished episode, and for the DVD.

    For some SERIOUS dissection of the animation cock-ups in G1, THIS is where you want to go. Made before the DVDs were even available.
     
  12. Backscatter

    Backscatter Autobot Brainmaster TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Posts:
    6,774
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    241
    Likes:
    +3
  13. Rodimus

    Rodimus The Prime Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2003
    Posts:
    4,678
    Trophy Points:
    207
    Likes:
    +4
    Thanks for the link.

    This makes me glad I have both versions of the episodes to watch through.
     
  14. Batman

    Batman The Dark Knight TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Posts:
    11,554
    News Credits:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    257
    Likes:
    +15
    Ebay:
    I honestly never notice anything like this. I just watch the show and enjoy what I can get. Seeing as Sony won't be doing a DVD release, I am damn glad I got the Rhino ones to watch anytime I want. They look good for a cartoon that was meant to be a toy commercial and was probably never intended to be watched and talked about 20 + years later. I'll take what I can get. Thank you Rhino!
     
  15. ROCK_LEE

    ROCK_LEE Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Posts:
    693
    Trophy Points:
    147
    Likes:
    +5
    at first i thought it said rhinox's fault. came in here expecting some youtube paroday.
     
  16. KMITB

    KMITB The dub voice of Prime

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Posts:
    169
    News Credits:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    97
    Likes:
    +15
    If you guys do a search, there are plenty posts on this topic and how Rhino chose the Film Transfers instead of the Broadcast Masters. At the end of the day, Rhino chose picture quality over correctness. Oh...and the audio work Rhino did....well...that's beating a dead horse!
     
  17. Gregatron

    Gregatron Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2002
    Posts:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Likes:
    +0
    I've been campaigning for years to get better versions of the original series released on DVD. The Rhino errors annoy me to no end.



    To recap:

    Rhino used incomplete 35mm film masters instead of the 1" broadcast masters (the episodes that actually aired on televsion from 1984-1987) for their DVD sets, which resulted in better picture quality (never have the episodes looked so lush and colorful), but also caused many problems.

    As a result of using the film masters, the Rhino DVDs feature episodes with incomplete animation that was originally *fixed* for the broadcast versions. This is the equivalent of releasing the incomplete workprint of a film on DVD and claiming it's the completed version. The improved color and detail clearly had little to do with Rhino's "restoration". They attempted to "fix" some of the errors created by their use of the 35mm film masters, yes, but in shoddy and inconsistent ways.

    The episodes as aired may have contained errors, but the Rhino versions are much, much worse. "Heavy Metal War", in particular, is almost unwatchable now. Rhino's attempts to fix some of the "new" errors are just awful.


    And, despite the beauty of the colors and details (they look on the DVDs just as they likely did on the animation stand), the series always had a more muted look on tv and video. I personally feel that, despite the less pristine colors/details, the broadcast versions are more representative of what we saw in the 1980s, and that's what we should see.

    For some examples of some (but far from all) of these errors, and excellent reviews of the Rhino DVD sets, go here:

    http://kenshiroh.tripod.com/dvd/transformers_s1/index.html

    http://kenshiroh.tripod.com/dvd/transformers_s2p1/index.html

    http://kenshiroh.tripod.com/dvd/transformers_s2p2/index.html

    http://kenshiroh.tripod.com/dvd/transformers_s3p1/index.html

    http://kenshiroh.tripod.com/dvd/transformers_s3p2/index.html



    There are lists and screencaps detailing most of the errors floating around out there, particularly in old alt.toys.transformers newsgroup postings.


    The white-lettered episode titles for many episodes had to be recreated by Rhino, resulting in "The Master Builders" becoming "The Master Builder" and "A Deceptacon Raider in King Arthur's Court" becoming "a Decepticon" (it was spelled incorrectly in the original broadcast version, but was fixed by Rhino). Also, the end titles for season one (the actual credits, not the backgrounds) come from season 2, and various episodes of the Five Faces of Darkness 5 parter have the standard season 3 intro instead of the special FFOD intro.



    Even worse is the fact that Rhino added brand-new (and awful) sound effects to the audio tracks, presumably to take advantage of the 5.1 audio track without actually having to remix the episodes into 5.1 by throwing sounds on top of the existing audio. For some episodes, these new sounds are on both 5.1 and 2.0 tracks, for others, just 5.1. Eventually, Rhino began adding "original broadcast audio" tracks to the TF DVDs (but only two out of the five Transformers DVD sets Rhino released feature the original audio option).

    Then there are the special features, which aren't even season-specific (or *series*-specific, as with the Neil Kaplan--from the TF: Robots In Disguise series--interview on the Transformers Season 1 DVD set).


    Here's what would make for good Transformers DVDs:

    1. Historically-accurate episodes (based on 1" broadcast masters--regardless of decreased image quality--, with correct main/end titles, the misspelled "Deceptacon" episode title, commercial bumpers, season 3 histortical trailers, and recaps/teasers).

    The Transformers season 3 historical trailers should be at the end of the season 3 episodes, as they originally were (Rhino also had them as separate extras, but didn't even include *all* of them as extras!).

    There should also probably be a seamless branching option so one can watch the episodes without bumpers/PSAs/trailers.


    And the film transfers should be GOOD--instead of being full of "jaggies"/moire effects and other weird artifacts.


    2. The episodes should be in proper chronological order (not necessarily production *or* broadcast order; for example, in the case of The Transformers, "The Gambler" should come right after "Child's Play"). On the Rhino sets, even though they had knowledgeable fans consulting, they *still* had episodes in the wrong order!


    3. Original mono broadcast audio (as originally broadcast) in stereo...with NO ADDED SOUND EFFECTS!!!!


    4. Complete seasons per set (none of that "Season 1, part 1", "Season 2, part 2" stuff).


    5. Extras and menus that are season-specific (for example, the never-aired Transformers season 2 PSAs should *not* be in a season 3 set). The original toy commericals would be nice, with the correct commercials in the corrects sets (1984 commericals in Transformers season 1 set, 1985 commericals in season 2 set, etc.).

    6. Extras that celebrate the *original* series (not RID, not Armada, not the live-action movie, and not the Botcon or OFTCC conventions).

    Audio commentary (TF fans like Zobovor or Steve-O Stonebreaker would be naturals), interviews with voice cast/crew, storytboards, etc. would also be great.

    7. Good packaging (that doesn't feature what looks like a 5-year old's tracings of screencaps from the series), and insert booklets that don't have basic spelling/grammatical errors.

    8. An efficient use of disc space (we don't need two versions of "The Rebirth" of one disc, one with main/end titles and recaps and one without).

    9. In the case of alternate material, such as the different audio endings for the Transformers episode "Dark Awakening", each version could be placed on a separate audio track (Rhino could have done this, but instead stuck us with the "tune in tomorrow for The Return of Optimus Prime" version...even though they had Dark Awakening in its *original aridate* spot, about 22 episodes *before* "Return"!!!!).

    The alternate main titles (such as the Transformers season 2 opener with season 3 music, used for reruns of season 2 and airings on the Sci-Fi Channel) could be included as extras.



    Many fans have accepted Rhino's mediocre DVDs as being "good enough", but I think there should be higher standards (people tend to accept--and even defend--mediocrity these days). The original Transformers series deserves far better treatment on DVD than what it's received thus far. People have said "It's just a cartoon, let it go!", but I think that's a bad excuse for a poor-quality release. The series deserves a re-release by competent people!
     
  18. iconscons

    iconscons Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Posts:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    147
    Likes:
    +29
    They are good enough. While they could be better you need to look at the fact that these are 20 year old cartoons with a limited market. I have the DVDs and video tapes. I watch the DVDs. I don't see the point in complaining about Rhino when another company (sony) won't even release them at all.
     
  19. Moonscream

    Moonscream YES, We EXIST!

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Posts:
    4,335
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    202
    Location:
    The best, the Pacific Northwest!
    Likes:
    +17
    'Its good enough' is not a good enough excuse for a company to be puting out a shoddy product.

    I seem to remember in one of the extras they talked about 'fixing' the color and upped the saturation of the colors since they thought they were 'washed out', but it resulted in there being a significant blue cast over the entire first season. They did the same thing to Jem, which actually ruined some of the colors(gold turned into a sickly green, for instance).

    Also, maybe someone who's more knowledgeable about music can tell me...did they actually remove part of the music in the theme song in the second season? It seems like there's an entire beat track that's missing, as compared to my videotapes.

    I also really hate, personally, that Thundercracker is substituted for Skywarp and Skywarp for Skyfire and Ironhide for Trailbreaker in Fire on the Mountain...was that Rhino's doing (since they were 'fixing' other parts by coloring characters that appeared to have lost their color), or was that actually on the master and they didn't give enough of a rip to actually WATCH what they were 'correcting'?

    --Moony
     
  20. Gregatron

    Gregatron Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2002
    Posts:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Likes:
    +0

    No, they aren't.

    Well, maybe for casual viewers (who don't know any better) they are, but for a lot of people who grew up with these episodes and know them and love them, they aren't.


    I think that despite the Sony-related problems, a re-release will happen eventually, maybe when the license has passed to another studio. It could take a few years.

    The scarcity of the Rhino DVDs and the demand for a re-release (and the disappointment the Rhino DVDs caused for numerous fans) practically beg for it. There's money to be made! Surely it won't be too long before someone picks up the ball. Especially if the live-action Transformers movie is a huge hit, which, if so, will help build the demand.

    The trick is getting, y'know, competent people in charge of the re-release, and those people making darn sure that the problems that plagued the Rhino sets are avoided this time.


    The Rhino sets did improve (in some areas) over time. The season 3-4 sets are pretty good (for the most part). Still, there are some transfer problems, a few incorrect main titles, episodes out of order, and a few "incomplete animation" errors. But they did get their act together somewhat by offering an "original broadcast audio" option.

    Season 1 needs the most correction work by far (due to the fact that retakes/corrections were done more often earlier in the series; by the time of the later episodes, the early film masters were prety much identical to the broadcast masters--there wasn't as much time/money for animation retakes). The rest of the series doesn't need as much work. There are only the occasional animation errors, "The Master Builder" title correction, some added sound effects to remove (a few episodes in season 2, part 1, and ALL of season 2, part 2), etc.


    Just because some people are content with the current DVDs as they are doesn't mean that everyone else is. A corrected re-release would make a lot of people happy. So let's keep on hoping!
     

Share This Page