The statement on the shirt merely shows that more people saw the cartoon than read the comic. I think that can be said of any property that crosses media.

And it also doesn't negate the fact that Furman wrote Grimlock closer to the information he was provided than the stable of writers on the cartoon did.

There is a lot of disparity in Transformers between the comic and cartoon.
I can think of no bigger example of this than Ratbat.
On the television we were given fleeting visions of Ratbat going "squeek" but in the comics Ratbat was a business-minded Decepticon leader.

Over in GI Joe Cartoonland Cobra Commander was getting his ass handed to him every thirty minutes and turned into a clown who said things like "Now I'll never rule the world. I hate this job!" meanwhile in the comic he was portrayed as absolutely the most dangerous man on the planet and he was smart enough to trick the US Government into creating a mass of land for him.
Does that make Cobra Commander Larry Hama's Mary-Sue character?

If Furman has ever created a Mary-Sue character it would be Death's Head, yes?

I LOL's then I realized I have that "Me Grimlock Kick Butt" shirt.  

 

Thank god you remembered to make fun of Hot Topic,now I know you're cool. Next time though you should remember to misuse the word "emo" for full internet cool points.

And yes,it was a good way to support my argument. That shirt being displayed/purchased in a popular store shows that in the court of popular opinion,Grimlock talks like Cookie Monster,regardless of what the series bible may say.

 

So, Transformers should be written with very casual fans hazy memories of the character in mind? Fair enough, lets drop individual names and have 'truck guy', 'cassette player guy' and 'the one that turns into a gun' so not to confuse them. The series isn't held in as high regard as you might think outside of the fandom, none of the casual fans I've had run ins with seem to care for it after they've re-watched an episode or two. Heck, even the writer who created the characterisation you seem to think is superior didn't think much of it.

To quote Donald F. Glut, (Who wrote most of the Dinobot episodes)

"No one, not even the story editors, looked at these scripts very carefully. I seem to remember the show being on a really tight schedule, and we had to crank these scripts out fast. I wrote some of them in a single day, first draft, and they went almost immediately to the storyboard artists after Bryce or an assistant gave them a rather cursory read. We were not trying to create art, just get them done fast, and get paid... None of the writing on this series, in my opinion, was good or passionate or, sometimes (my own included, like The Autobot Run) even adequate. But we got paid well for writing them fast.... I was never a fan of any of the characters."'

He didn't care enough about the characters to even try and stick to the series bible when writing and no-one else cared enough to notice so long as he turned in scripts on time. Like his style or not, at least Furman cares about who and what he's writing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying the cartoon was popular, but I don't see it as the definitive version of G1, not by a long shot.

Oh, and by the way, Spinout was Sunstreaker.

 

Going by that logic, the Transformers tech specs must be equal to the cartoon as they sell a shirt with Prime's Motto on it, they also stock a Transformers shirt with the name in Japanese, and an an insecticon shirt with 'buggin out' on it... So yeah, what's written on a Hot topic shirt isn't really representative of anything.

 

Except it wasn't a good way to support your argument.
Your argument is that Grimlock is Furman's Mary-Sue character because of the qualities he seems to have given the character.
Just because there is a catch phrase on a T-shirt that comes from the 86 movie does not validate your argument.

If Hot Topic had a shirt with the version of Batman from The Brave and the Bold on it would that invalidate the other versions of Batman?
Would that make Batman from The Animated Series Bruce Timm's Mary-Sue?

 

Does anyone know where I can contact the invisible silent majority of true fans so I can hear thier opinion first hand?

 

Boom. Nailed it.

Seems to me Furman wants to treat the Transformers as more than goofy robots. Staying as true to the TF Bible while at the same time making them as believable and, dare I say, mature as possible. At least simply taking them and their outlying fiction as seriously as one can. Commendable, enjoyable and mostly fun.

Not to everyone's taste but hell, he's stuck through thick and thin, been enthusiastic as all hell to do it and has a knack for fucking epic.

Yeah, some of his stuff might be hackneyed, tired etc. but show me a single comic author who's still writing about the same bunch of dudes for as long as he has who hasn't had the odd duffer?

 

They are too cool to post on TF forums  

 

This resonates well with me. Nice man, gave us a lot of great old lore and doesn't take himself so seriously.  

 

OK guys,I give up. The Transformers comic books were and have always been more well known than the cartoon,and most people's fond childhood memories of Transformers come from the series bible,not the show itself. Simon Furman is a wonderful writer who brings great,fresh new ideas to the series,such as shemales and dynobots and Sunstreaker being a Headmaster partner with an evil guy.
I thought I had heard IDW had to get rid of him and retcon his new G1 mythos but maybe I was mistaken.

 

     

Yet again, you keep missing the point. I have a feeling you're doing it purposely, too, just to play the victim.


You're right, the cartoon was and is what most people remember. You're right, the cartoon was and is still more popular.

We get it.

The problem is, none of that means it's better. None of that means the characters are any more (or less) "correct."

The characters and storylines have always been divergent, right from the get-go. That means way before Simon Furman ever had his hand at writing them. The comic tends to follow the series bible more closely, while the cartoon goes it's own way. They are different... which one you like is up to you. You (QUITE obviously) prefer the cartoon, apparently in every single facet. Awesome. Congratulations. Now, why the hostility towards the comics? Why towards Simon Furman particularly? Is him (and pretty much every other TF comic author...) portraying the G1 universe in a different light than the cartoon really that offensive to you? Does it somehow ruin your enjoyment of a 20-something year old cartoon and it's characters?

Huh? Please point to me how Hunter was ever evil.

Well, not sure exacly that thay "had" to get rid of him, but yeah, he's no longer the main writer. Which is to say he's not exactly completely gone either. And yes, his universe and storylines were truncated... but have you seen the fan frustration and anger about it? Have you also noticed that the guy who was brought in the take over for Furman now shares the exact same fate as his predecessor?

Your statement here proves nothing.

 

Yes,you got me. I'm "playing the victim" in a discussion about comics and cartoons based on toys.

No,but it does ruin my enjoyment of the comics. It's like "Whoa,cool,there's a new comic book featuring the characters from my favorite cartoon in all new adventures!!?!?" Then you open it up and they kind of look like the G1 Transformers,except some really don't,and they kind of act like the G1 Transformers,except when they don't. And every character talks exactly the same. And the story never really gets terrible,but is never really particularly good,either.

OK,the other guys were evil and then Hunter took over the nebulon costume thing or whatever. It was a boring comic I read months ago.

 

Sure is how you came across in that previous post, though.

Well, why exactly were you expecting this to be the same exact characters from the cartoon? It was billed as a new take on the G1 mythos from before ink ever went to paper. I don't get your attitude. If something is advertised as being a "new take" what's the point in reading it hoping it's going to be the same then being dissapointed when it isn't?

Completely understand you enjoying the book on it's own merits, though. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

Heh. Cool, mostly just ribbing you for that one... 

 

I wouldn't even go so far as to say I didn't enjoy them at all,they were plesant enough ways to pass the time,but I would have been better off purchasing other comics.

 

I don't understand how the fact that a cartoon is more recognizable, and more memorable than a comic book in any way at all is related to the comic's writer on any level -ever.

Does that mean that because many people remember the song "Spider-man, Spider-man, does whatever a spider can" over any issue or plot from the comics then the 67 cartoon is the definitive version of Spider-man?

Further, that would make Stan Lee, JMS, Bill Mantlo, Steve Ditko, Todd McFarlane, and dozens of creators over the decades poor writers\artists\editors?

I'm not making the connection.

You dislike Furman.
I'm not arguing that point.
But how is the cartoon's popularity reflective of Furman's inability to write?

 

why isn't there a neutral choice?

 

I suppose that's the fallacy of your entire argument. Everyone remembers the cartoon characters in this weird glowing light. But re watching it, it's pretty shitty.

I don't ever want to see the cartoon characters do anything other than staff in my past where I remember them being awesome. I eagerly await new and far better takes on the characters from the 80's 'toon.

Furman gave us an intelligent take on Transformers. He didn't treat them with the stagnant cliches of the cartoon. Ironhide wasn't a weird southern general who shot goo from his hands. Sideswipe and Sunstreaker weren't brothers (fucking ******ed concept by the way). Prime wasn't a strict moral compass always pointing to being a pussy.

Furman treated the Transformers with more respect than they've ever received before. That's non negotiable. He didn't write cushy kids cartoons. He didn't spit out a rehash of the cartoon. He saw this amazing hi-sci-fi concept of robots that disguise themselves as vehicles and how they'd get along fighting a losing war with no home world to return to.

I remember when Infiltration came out I bitched so god damn much about it because it was slow, and I found it boring. Well, that was my bad because when I was done with Escalation I realized I was a tool.

I'm not a Furman fanboy who thinks he can do no wrong. I just happen to think he's the best thing to ever happen to Transformers. He single handed crafted an entire Transformers world with his IDW stuff. It's awful it was cut short for the Saturday morning crap that was AHM.

blah blah blah

 

I'm pretty sure they're brothers.
They certainly are in Marvel, and IDW's run certainly implies they are if not explicitly states it.

 

Revelation or Devastation gives us a different implication. Sideswipe was only looking to rescue Sunstreaker because he worked under him; Sunstreaker trained him.

Possibly in AHM they were referred to as actual brothers but I refuse to accept that as continuity at this point.