Forged vs Constructed Cold

Discussion in 'Transformers Comics Discussion' started by Greyley, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Greyley

    Greyley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Posts:
    839
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    In Chaos Theory, there was a flashback scene between Megatron and Springarm where Megatron was asked how he was created: forged, or constructed cold. It was suggested in that same scene that the method of creation was once used to justify apartheid in Cybertronian society. Megatron seemed offended by the question (and sadly didn't give us any hint which method he was created by).

    This tidbit of world building is fascinating, and gives IDW's continuity a unique spin on Transformer history and biology. Who decides how an individual TF is created, and why? Is it a matter of mass production on an assembly line vs carefully built by hand, or some other definition? Does the production method have any impact on how the spark is created or inserted? And note that we weren't told WHICH method of being born was the "good" one...were the cold constructed TFs subjugated by the forged ones, or the other way around?

    I hope this gets revisted again in future comics, because it's way too good of an idea to go to waste. In the meantime, what are your thoughts?
     
  2. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Posts:
    14,910
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +221
    I guess being forged is bespoke and constructed cold is just parts off the rack.

    Which is considered better? Lovingly hand-crafted or assembed from a kit of pre-made general parts?

    Where do protoforms fit into all this?
     
  3. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    24,388
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +1,347
    That... That doesn't make any goddamn sense, except maybe as a metaphor...


    A forged mechanism is (usually) essentially heated up (to red-hot, in the case of steel, for example) to the point where it can be easily deformed. Cold-worked parts are formed at room temperature. The difference is, other than forging takes less energy to deform the object, but more energy to heat it up, that deforming and shaping the piece introduces defects and dislocations into its atomic structure, making it harder and usually more brittle. This is where we get "work-hardended" steels and cold-worked iron. In forging, work is done at high enough temperatures that the structure of the part is able to anneal itself, that is, to sort out the dislocations and defects in the structure while still keeping the shape. Forged pieces are, by and large, less brittle but softer than cold-worked pieces.

    I haven't read the issue, so I have no idea of context, but maybe cold-worked Transformers were ones meant for menial, disposable tasks requiring little durability, while forged Transformers would be more robust and able to endure more (physical) stress? Or maybe it's metaphoric, meaning a "cold-constructed" Transformer would be one who was inflexible, or who buckled under pressure, or who was clumsy or flawed in his tasks?

    It's a weird thing to say, from a technical standpoint, as one would expect Cybertronian parts would be produced in a number of different ways (casting, forging, drawing, machining, etc.), especially given their electronics and non-metallic parts.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_working
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
  4. Greyley

    Greyley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Posts:
    839
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    IIRC, I don't think protoforms have ever been mentioned in IDW's G1 continuity (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

    This is the page in question, if that helps. Megatron has been arrested on mostly false charges and is being held in jail, and the issue of creation type comes up as he's being questioned.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    24,388
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +1,347
    Yeah, that definitely looks like a race thing. I imagine cold-worked bots would be viewed of as cheap and disposable, of lesser quality then, due to their "less refined" manufacturing compared to forging.

    But that STILL doesn't make sense, from an engineering perspective. I mean, it would if you were saying it in a "are you a man or a mouse?" kind of way, but for a race as advanced as them, why wouldn't they just use different materials for different "castes"? Then again, I guess racism is usually based on pretty ridiculous things, so what manufacturing technique was used to build your frame is as good a reason as any I guess. I suppose it's a pretty good turn of phrase in that respect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  6. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP AKA Beve Stuscemi

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Posts:
    71,555
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    412
    Location:
    agile house
    Likes:
    +9,038
    Maybe there's something metaphysical, even super-natural about it. Maybe the two unique methods used to create Transformers are really more complex and the names are, and said names are just nicknames based off common used construction terms? (For example being forged doesn't actually mean that they were heated and moulded, but rather something more complex or spiritual, likewise constructed cold)

    But then again, nearly every fundamental of TFs is based off nonsense and impracticality, so who knows.
     
  7. WoundSave

    WoundSave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Posts:
    1,633
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Likes:
    +14
    i havent read anything before AHM - is there any other reference to how Transformers are "born" in any of the earlier IDW stuff?

    Aernaroth- is your gif a lovebird? also- i appreciate you deconstructing the two terms-- frankly, i think you may have put more thought into it that the person who wrote that issue of the Chaos Arc, im willing to bet they just kind of grabbed two terms and threw them in there.... hopefully the two new on goings prove me wrong at some point..

    im too lazy to dig out my of the issue before TDoOP - with Ironhide and Alpha Trion, just wondering if there was any mentiong of cold/forged in there.
     
  8. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Posts:
    11,245
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +346
    Ebay:
    My guess (it's clearly being set up as a bit of a mystery) is that "forged" Transformers are unique, and "constructed" Transformers share a body plan.

    So if you're forged you can't have a repaint! :lol 
     
  9. Star Saber

    Star Saber Cybertron 5th Commander

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Posts:
    8,586
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    317
    Likes:
    +245
    That would be an interesting story point :lol 
     
  10. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    24,388
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +1,347
    That's interesting, since a copy of something is a "forgery". Pretty sure the root words are different though.
     
  11. Anguirus

    Anguirus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2009
    Posts:
    11,245
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    277
    Likes:
    +346
    Ebay:
    That also explains why Springarm is so perplexed. Megatron is low caste, yet he has no batch code, so he asks if perhaps he was forged instead of constructed. Megatron responds with "smeg off, we're all equal" rhetoric.

    And yeah, I have a hard time imagining IDW Megatron as a mass-produced unit no matter how "low-caste" he supposedly started.
     
  12. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    24,388
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +1,347
    That's mechanoracist you're mechanoracist. You saying cold constructed bots can't accomplish great things? Oh, those "stampies" won't ever rise above riveting girders or pushing papers. It'll be those forged bots who make everything happen, right?

    Unless there's a dramatically different meaning of the two processes from how we understand them, the only implication I can draw from the panels is that it's just a completely ridiculous prejudice based on a meaningless distinction, that helps to show the internal flaws of cybertronian society before the great war.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  13. MisterFanwank

    MisterFanwank Toy Industry Analyst

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,234
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +44
    When I read the title for this, I thought about Rattrap's line from Beast Wars:

    "The Ark wasn't built, she was poured!"

    Or something like that. Assuming the writers just didn't do their research and this was the distinction they were trying to make, perhaps they mean that "forged" transformers have distinct molds and each body type that has a mold goes into a specific caste. Transformers who were "Constructed Cold" may have been unique since there's no implied molding process, though certainly the same body type could have been built multiple times.

    I'm guessing "Forged" transformers could only be in one caste based on their mold, and "Constructed Cold" transformers, lacking the implication of being the same as many other Transformers, were placed based on whoever ordered their construction and the intended use for the Transformer.

    If Megatron were lacking a batch number, then it would make sense that he was of more unique construction than most other Transformers, ergo, no mold. I predict he was "Constructed Cold."
     
  14. Greyley

    Greyley Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Posts:
    839
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Likes:
    +0
    The main problem with the idea of batches of mass produced bots is that we don't see repeated body types as much as we should. If there were pre-made parts, it seems like there would be situations where there are lots of identical bots doing the same kind of job. Like the Vehicon mooks in Prime, or the common Bumblebee-type in Animated. Even the seekers in the comics have said that they took a body identical to Starscream as a sign of respect for their commander, not because they were originally built that way.

    Agreed. And if there were lots of Megatron types running around, the Decepticons probably would have tried to recruit them all since the miner body type would naturally be well-suited for combat. But Megs is the only one we ever see with his body plan.

    "Stampies"...that's brilliant! It would make Stampy the BW character awkwardly named though. Poor guy. :lol 

    That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think most people have been assuming that the forged bots are the unique ones and the cold constructed ones are the mass produced generics, but you make a good case for it being the other way around. It would be an amusing parallel to real life if TFs were created via molds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  15. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Posts:
    24,388
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    367
    Likes:
    +1,347
    It's almost certain that at least some parts for a Transformer would be poured into a mold (Cast) at some point, but forged pieces are already solid. There is die-forging, where a solid piece is placed into a mold and then essentially deformed to fit it's shape, but this isn't very good for fine detail or complex alloys compared to casting and machining.

    Constructed Cold COULD mean assembled without warm-up or advanced planning, though.

    No man, he's like Slag, Stampy isn't his name, the entire Maximal group is just really racist and calls him by a slur as a nickname the entire time.
     
  16. MisterFanwank

    MisterFanwank Toy Industry Analyst

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,234
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +44
    ^ Well, I was running under the assumption that the writers just used whatever sounded good to them and didn't know what they were talking about. In that instance, the actual meaning of the words loses relevancy and we're reduced to trying to figure out what they really mean.
     
  17. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Posts:
    14,910
    News Credits:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Likes:
    +221
    And they were subject to mold degredation. All those generic Seekers getting crappier and crappier as they continue to get pumped out of the same old mold.

    I have to wonder though... since there's a lot of reformatting and body/alt changes and part replacements a TF goes through during their long life, how much of them would even be their original parts after, say, a dozen reformats/rebuilds.
    Forged or cold-cast would have to be something to do with their basic super-structure or after a certain number of body changes they'd no longer have any vestige of their original contruction method left.
     
  18. MisterFanwank

    MisterFanwank Toy Industry Analyst

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Posts:
    4,234
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +44
    I wouldn't be surprised if "reformatting" were something that came about after apartheid, which is why most Transformers don't look anything like each other.
     
  19. WoundSave

    WoundSave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Posts:
    1,633
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Likes:
    +14
    hmmm twintwist and topspin from LSotW - linked spark or whatever it was called.
    just a stray thought- sort of confuses the issue more though...

    i think fanwank has it right though
    this happens alot in this day and age.
     
  20. Hazekiah

    Hazekiah Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Posts:
    3,522
    News Credits:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Likes:
    +381
    I'd assumed that just like much of Megatron: Origin, the flashbacks from TF: Chaos Theory were meant as nods to and were indeed inspired by the Star Wars prequel trilogy.

    The "Forged vs. Constructed Cold" plot point seemed to suggest Megatron possibly came into being basically the same way Anakin was hinted at being the product of the Sith Lords tampering with the Force to create life for their own, dark machinations. Since Anakin was conceived without a true "father" you could say that in some ways he himself was likewise born with no "batch code."

    Given the historical connection between the two franchises, the devious goings-on in the Cybertronian Senate, and indeed the very "prequel" nature of the Megatron: Origin storyline and TF: Chaos Theory flashbacks, I think the connection and implication is actually pretty clear in this case.

    It fits very well and works well alongside suggestions that there was actually some behind-the-scenes "guidance" taking place in the course of Megatron's ascent to power.

    Yeah, it's not exactly the same root but the similarities in meaning are still there. When one is forging a sword or a signature they're both still being used as "to make," one just developed a highly negative connotation, similar to the dual meanings implied by "fabrication," as in fabricating metal vs. fabricating false evidence, for example.

    :) 
     

Share This Page