For your consideration

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Cory Bauer, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. Cory Bauer

    Cory Bauer Well-Known Member

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    I ain't looking for a fight. I ain't telling anybody off. I ain't looking to change anybody's opinion. I ain't even looking for replies or a discussion. I just have some things I thought those in the Transformers community who are disappointed with the direction of the film could ponder, and undoubtedly all of us have something about the film we are disappointed about.

    I am a huge G1 fan. I was thrilled the first time I heard the film would be based on G1. But thinking back, the reason I was thrilled was because I wanted the film to take place on Earth, and I wanted the Transformers to have present-day realistic Earth alt modes - because both of those elements are something that has been vacant from Transformers entertainment since G1. So really, I got what I wanted. Now, that's not to say I don't care what the characters look like; I was devastated when the first image of Optimus Prime's truck mode hit the net. I scoffed at the notion that the gorilla sketch we saw was going to be Starscream. I was absolutely baffled by Megatron's design. It has most definitely been an endless ride of "WTF?"s.

    But, on the other hand I have to take a step back and acknowledge exactly what we the Transformers fans are asking the filmmakers to do, and that is without a doubt to give us robots who aesthetically mimic or directly copy toys. They are toys. Every transformer ever made has been a toy. Toys toys toys. Now we can say a thousand times that we're not asking for toys in the movie, but by asking for the implementation of aesthetics from previous Transformer incarnations, we are without a doubt asking for robots that are more like toys. And yet we continuously deny that fact, over and over and over again. We lie to ourselves about what we're asking them to do, because we don't even acknowledge that Transformers have always been toys for children.

    It has always been toys first, and stories second - only so that kids have a reason to want the toys. And the very characters whom we all love from G1 weren't even designed to be what they are in their own mythology, which really blows the whole "because that's the way it was" excuse out of the water. And all of those story incarnations have been G-rated, except for the animated movie because Spike said shit. Really, one could say that this Transformers incarnation will be the first incarnation where everything is true to source. Everything has been created from the ground up to best represent what it's roll in the mythology is, instead of the other way around, where toys need to be sold so a story is made that incorporates them. Oh the film well sell toys, but it has to succeed on it's own merits this time - it's too costly to be a financial loss recouped by toy sales.

    So big picture: I think for us to expect the filmmakers to follow the design queues of a 20 year old defunct series of children's toys, who weren't even intended to be what the mythology claims they are, for their character aesthetics in a 2007 PG-13 Action movie seems like an incredibly, outrageously, catastrophically tall order. For the first time in Transformers history, the goal is not to sell toys - that will happen regardless. No, the goal is to create a great new Transformers universe for teenagers and adults, with great supporting characters that are intended for the mythology they belong to. Will they succeed? Who knows. But I applaud them for taking the chance - instead of preying off the comfort zone of existing fans, like Hasbro's been doing since G1 went off the air.

    These are merely my opinions sprinkled with some facts, and anyone else could very well form completely opposing opinions based on the very same facts, but thanks for reading.
     
  2. blueandwhite

    blueandwhite Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thoughts.

    Honestly, I understand where many fans are coming from. And I appreciate that every fan sees things a bit differently when it comes to his or her 'ideal' vision of just 'what' transformers should be (quotes for emphasis, not sarcasm). I think the real difference is, for some people, certain changes can be thought of as deal-breakers, where for others those changes are either appreciated or within their realm of tolerance.

    I agree with many of your points, and I understand why you and many others look forward to this movie. Really, I hope that the supporters get a movie that they can enjoy for years to come (and if circumstances would allow, a sequel or two).

    Of course, with that being said, I also hope that you can appreciate that there are some of us in the community who simply don't like where this movie is headed. We are undeniably disappointed. So much so, that many of us have overreacted from time to time, much to the shagrin of a few movie supporters. For my part, I can only appologize. I don't like most of the designs, or the design choices made for this movie, and I'm not keen on Michael Bay's previous work, so I have been more than a bit sour.

    Still, I don't think that all the detractors were asking for a G1 movie. I certainly wasn't. I just wasn't expecting what we've received, so I am a bit bitter. Again, sorry to anyone who has taken offense to my position. I have my reasons, and simply ask that those who feel differently would respect them, just as I respect your reasons for liking this movie.
     
  3. Josh

    Josh Comic Color-guy

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    indeed
     
  4. Blunticon

    Blunticon The Oddjob

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    Well Bay allready stated that they were doing it for the story and what not. Very well written by the way and you stated your opinon very well. The movie will be a sucess and if they really wanted to make it the way the fans wanted they would've asked for the fans opinions more so.
     
  5. Ravenxl7

    Ravenxl7 W.A.F.F.L.E.O.

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    I agree with you 110%. I personally couldn't of said it better. I can't wait to see the film, and then form an opinion about how good or how bad it was. And from what we've seen of the toy line that will be going along with the movie, I'm planning on makeing some purchases there too. 2007 is going to be a great year. Peace out.
     
  6. mblase

    mblase Well-Known Member

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    Are we still arguing about this?

    No, seriously. I haven't seen a rant about this for a couple of months. Honestly, I was hoping it'd be dropped for good until the real trailer hit the theaters.
     
  7. Golden Age

    Golden Age BATTLE BEAST

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    Well said. I feel differently about the matter, but I respect your thorough explanation. I enjoyed the G1 show, but the toys were really what drove the entire brand in my opinion. In 1986 the story continued on, but with a new toyline and a new look. The show died off shortly after.
    Now Bay and his crew are taking what was originally a slapped on story, and are using it as the basis of their entire interpretation. He is bypassing the source material that inspired the show (and the entire brand)..namley the G1 toys.
    I always liked the Transformers story, but it isnt very original. I can think of a million other storylines that deal with aliens crashing on earth, and humans get involved with their problems. This is not the point behind Transformers. The point behind Transfomers is, awesome looking robots that turn into other things. Bay's movie fails on the whole awesome looking robot thing.

    edit: He also took key characters, personalities, and story events and decided to throw them out the window. He isn't being faithful to the story either in my opinion. He is basically making a kitbash Transformers.
     
  8. Shaun_C

    Shaun_C The REAL One True fan Veteran TFW2005 Supporter

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    You should read around, that was the most common complaint. While you and a select few dislike the design on their own merrits. Unfortunately y'all are in the minority as most haters say flat out how it should follow G1. Even here when the pics surfaced more often then not it was said *and I'm paraphrasing* that "These don't look like G1" and "Why use G1 names if it's not G1" and such and such

    To be fair he's being as faithful as any other TF series has been. You could say the same thing about BW 2nd and BW Neo.

    Sentient robots coming to earth has pretty much been the most common thing about the various TF serials. This movie has Autobots and Decepticons coming to earth. So it's Transformers.

    And also w/o seeing the movie how's it possible to comment on personalities since all we've seen are still photos?
     
  9. swarlock

    swarlock Autobot Supporter

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    And if it fails on its own merits then it just means that it can't seperate itself from its intended purpose which is to sell toys, if that makes any sense.


    This has been tried before and it doesn't work.
     
  10. Katamari Prime

    Katamari Prime Hassan Chop! TFW2005 Supporter

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    Sort of, but your right, as the Original movie had, as the commentary and extras readily point out, one of their main objectives was to sell new toys by killing off the old line. But as an old line goes "Opinions are like A**Holes, everybodies got one." And it not as if they've hyped this thing into the ground, like with may other movies. I'll just have to see for myself, like everyone else.
     
  11. Ziero

    Ziero TFW2005 Supporter

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    Personally I'm glad this movie isn't being used like the original TF movie, that being to sell more toys. As much as I love the figures, I love the story of the TF just as much. So what if it's not 'original', no story ever can be really as all 'stories' have been told. But it is done in an 'original' way as I can't think of any other invading alien movie where the main characters are robots who disguise themselves as real life vehicles. Heck, other then the Iron Giant, I can't think of *any* giant robot movie that was shown in theaters over here so to that extent it is something 'new'.

    I'm glad we finally get a mass media version of Transformers that *isn't* a giant toy commercial. This way the designs and stories won't be hindered to appease a 5 year old mind, but rather they can now appeal to all ages. That said, people will still dislike the movie, it's direction and it's concepts, for whatever reasons. You can never please everyone all the time, especially large fandoms like this one. People don't like what they don't like.
     
  12. Transbot90210

    Transbot90210 Banned

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    About the designs, all I can say is this. DO NOT base them off of the painted pics we've seen. The CG renders are mind blowing.

    Starscream still sucks and they did miss a lot on the heads. BUt wait til you see Ironhide....I will be surpised if people don't joygasm over this monstrosity...except the head lol


    I truely believe that the selling point of this film will be the story and the motion of the robots. It is one thing to see a fully rendered still it is another to see that image move. After what I have seen, my hopes for the film have risen again (they sunk for a bit when I saw the skorponok toy lol) All in all, enjoy it people, shit or not we are going to the golden age of TFs. We hot the big screen with big m***F***'n Robots.

    Thanx
    Transbot90210
     
  13. Cory Bauer

    Cory Bauer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to everyone who read and posted comments.
     
  14. Lycanthropic Tendencies

    Lycanthropic Tendencies Well-Known Member

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    It's not you personally, but I'm tired of comments like this.

    The TV shows are free. They are commercials first and foremost.
    The comics however have to compete in a tough market.
    You can't hold your own against Marvel and DC's finest with nothing more than a commercial for toys.

    For 7 and a half years, the US G1 comic did just that. The stories often came first, characters that were not toys, nor ever would be toys were introduced because it made for a better story.
    At one point it did become more of an ad and sales suffered for it, driving home even more that it was the stories selling.

    The UK comics took all of this to a much higher level.
    The comics market was nowhere near the US comics market.
    US comics were rare and regular UK titles of heavy hitters like Spiderman, Batman, the X-Men and Superman tended not last more than a year or two.

    Yet for 7 and a half years, Transformers sold as a (mostly) weekly publication.
    It did so by selling stories that came before toys.

    Swoop was pushed hugely despite not ever being released in Europe.
    Same goes for Shockwave, the Constructicons, Roadbuster and Whirl, and a few more besides.

    Hasbro had other toys to sell, but they took a back seat as the ones featured made for more interesting personalities and stories.
    Similarly, both Thunderwing and Bludgeon are so popular because of their UK versions.
    There was little pushing of the pretender toys, just Furman liking these two characters and using them long after the toys had gone.
    Same with Carnivac and Nightbeat.

    And of course there is Xaaron, Impactor, Death's Head.
    They are just three of the characters that were important within the Transformers universe, that were developed and featured and pushed as "must have" characters despite not being toys.

    Whilst you were watching the "different times - ages 5 and up" part of your sig, G1 in comic form was delivering the ages 13 and up different world half.
    Love the movie by all means, but don't try to portray it as the single piece of fiction with integrity, the only thing not meant to sell toys to kids.
    It's not a different world, this isn't a more mature Transfomers.
    You just missed it the first time.
    I don't see how this is a good thing.

    The mixture of Diaclone and Microman toys made for a line that didn't match up.
    We had regular cars next to superdeformed cars. We had a bunch of war planes lead by a hand gun.
    And the gun, planes and tapedeck fighting the cars.

    Transformers at it source was making it all make sense.

    Take away the simplified decision to make non military vehicles peace loving good guys and military vehicles, bad guy soldiers.
    Take away the forced size differences.
    Take away the personlities built around the alt modes and you don't have Transformers.

    You have Gobots.

    Back then an ideal line was full of many smaller figures. The bad guys and good guys were evenly numbered.
    You could buy a figure every week or two and deluxe playsets were rleased around Holidays.
    It's what every toy line did then.

    They had to push larger toys, they had to make us believe that fewer Decepticons were a match for more Autobots, they had to make us want the same toy in a different colour.

    The point is that the fact they had the toys first, that the toys presented problems they had to tackle meant they had to think outside of the box.
    That's what made it so unique, that's what made it last as it has.
    A lack of that in the movie won't make for a bad movie but as with anything, the more challenges, the more inventive people are and the more unique the product.

    In the end, I don't think they're taking a chance at all.
    Taking the design Transformers are more well known for, making it work, tackling problems like mass shifting, making it work would be taking more of a risk, pushing themselves harder than starting from scratch.
    As you say, they're constructing a new universe, with fairly generic designs, realism at a high and little need for imagination outside of the core concept.
    It might be a good movie, but it's as safe and by the numbers as any I've seen.

    I didn't expect more from Hollywood, but I don't think that delivering what some wanted would have been too tall an order.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong on this one, I respect your opinion.
    I'm just one of those who finds things like Ultimates an easy cop out and would respect the effort more if they incorporated the ideas into what already exists.
    It takes much more skill than hitting the reset button and throwing your paint on a blank canvas.
     
  15. Cory Bauer

    Cory Bauer Well-Known Member

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    Lycanthropic Tendencies, thanks for that post. Very strong counter argument. Very well thought out. I might rebut a couple of points later on, but I don't feel the need to rush into a "nuh uh!" counterstrike right now :p 

    Thanks again. Good stuff to think about.
     
  16. turk128

    turk128 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how you can conclude that mass shifting and well known designs are more of a risk than starting from scrapt. By example and definition, it's by far the safer route.

    I personally like the direction they are going with the designs with the only major criticism being that they are too anal-retentive and over-the-top with the details. I absolutely love how original the designs seem to be, I've yet to see anyone nail down the overall style they are using.

    Even detractors can't seem to agree on what derogatory term to describe it settling instead to excert some pretty imaginative connections to existing toylines and mechs. I mean, EVA? That's beyond hyperbole, that's Uwe Boll.
     
  17. Star Cracker

    Star Cracker Well-Known Member

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    No, the design is "paper shredder". I'm serious, that's the first thing that comes to mind.
     
  18. turk128

    turk128 Well-Known Member

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    Notice I said "agree on." There's plenty of descriptions but not one coherant direction.

    The first time I saw Megatron, I thought he was a Hyperion Shrike mech. Doesn't take away from the beautiful yet crazy design. And I think that's what most of the detractors overlook; as much as the designs are not clicking with your own pre-conceptions, dismissing them as crappy designs just ain't cool.
     
  19. Caterwaul

    Caterwaul Busou Shinki Loremaster

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    The problem, LT, is that many TF fans were fans of the cartoon first and barely paid attention to the comic. I was one of those.

    Even then, I think you're fooling yourself if you believe Hasbro had no input in the comics. GI Joe's Larry Hama has told us that Hasbro constantly pushed him to include the new characters/vehicles and you're going to have to be awfully convincing to make me believe that Transformers, another Hasbro trademark, was any different. If it told a good story, it was in addition to selling the toys. You're fooling yourself if you don’t believe Hasbro wasn’t using it as a commercial too.

    Of course, I also say the same about this movie. While the movie toy sales will not recoup the cost of the movie by itself, it's a way for them to increase exposure to the property in general. It's still a commercial in a way of speaking.

    On a personal rant side, why do people keep calling the movie designs 'Generic Robots’? Name ONE robot line that looks like these on a consistent basis. If you don’t like them, be honest enough to say you don’t like them due to your own tastes, don’t try to rationalize your personal opinion. If anything, it's the G1 robots that follow more along established 'generic' lines with other giant robots in Japan.
     
  20. Frognal

    Frognal Prodigal Son Returned

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    You misunderstand. "Generic looking" in this case means that the characters don't look like individuals. The designs are so complex that they look too similar to each other.
     

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