LMAO HAHA - Best post ever!!! Sorry about the delay in posting the next contest...I am trying to finish grading 70 constitution tests. (only 2 pages left)

 

Just give everyone a B and lets go!! 

 

Victory.

 

Classic Miller. Or not.  

Hey, what do you know? Megatron has a "particle beam" in the short bio? I never noticed that before!

Honestly, for the text, I've always looked to the long Profiles first and foremost... I have my trusty vintage Marvel TF Universe tpb sitting on a shelf on my desk as we speak.  

As for the Spec numbers, well... there really is only one source for those. I always knew there were omissions in the profiles, but I never noticed the outright alteration between Megs' long and short profiles. Fun.

I don't think it indicates that he "didn't know"... I agree that the Megatron bio skims over the details a bit, but the notion of Anti-Matter as a weapon seems to be mostly understood by the time he wrote Metroplex's bio. Using anti-matter as a weapon or to "power a weapon" is pretty vague wording, but having a way of projecting it at a target certainly seems like the logical reading.

I was never sure how exactly that worked. Does Megatron have one black hole that he's bonded to, that he draws anti-matter from? Or can he branch out to other nearby black holes? I would imagine that he has one set black hole that is "his" source.

Though to get too bogged down in this is allowing the "science" to kill the "fantasy". As I mentioned in my earlier post, simply stating that he can obtain (and contain) enough anti-matter from a black hole for destructive purposes is enough. Whatever pseudo-science fantasy-tech is required for such a feat, we must then assume Megatron has.

Again, this is a pretty cheap shot... you're essentially looking at what his profile says he CAN do, and trying to suggest that he "can't really do that... it wouldn't work right". Unfortunately, in this case, fiction is stronger than truth.

However, you must concede that behind the numbers bandied about, this is as much conjecture as anything else that has been presented so far.

There is no explanation or quantification of the anti-matter Megatron obtains... the minute workings necessary for Megatron's transdimensional siphoning ability are already so impossibly complex and fanciful, it's almost absurd to try to apply conventional Earth science to the antimatter obtained by them.

Likewise, you neglect to point out that quantity the of anti-matter that Metroplex would be capable of creating according to "Earth technology" is so minute, that the disintegrating and energy release properties wouldn't be able to heat a cup of coffee, much less harm a Transformer. Even if his projectors can produce anti-matter at a rate exponentially higher than allowed by current technology, he would still have to spend the better part of hundreds of years warming up those projectors before he'd be able to get a worthwhile blast out of it! He would obtain better results by throwing rocks at his enemies.

Realistically, whether producing one's own antimatter like Metroplex, or gathering it from some arcane source like Megatron, the amount of antimatter they would be able to obtain would be negligible in terms of weapons applications. And yet, they do.

However, neither profile indicates any real delay in prepping or firing these weapons. Even that is really nothing more than our concession to dramatic tension. If we simply take the fantasy science from the profiles at face value, it leaves us exactly where we were before... with no indication whatsoever whose weapon might be more powerful.. except for the 10 Firepower they both share.

You do realize that this "quandary" you've set before me is entirely arbitrary, right?  

A) I prefer the extended profiles in general. However in the case of Megatron's profile, the exact use the antimatter is being put to is still completely indeterminate. I prefer the antimatter projection method myself.

B) One source does not necessarily cancel the other. There are some truncations in the small bios, but very few contradictions. The fact that Metroplex's weakness is not mentioned does not mean that the weakness doesn't exist and the long profile must then be ignored. Pulling from the various sources, the goal should be to form a coherent and holistic image of the characters and their abilities. This kind of either-or binary thinking shows a rather limited imagination, don't you think?

Bombarding Megatron with Anti-Matter is not something I would expect Metro to do because he has several less draining options available to him that he would rely on first.

As an aside, if one looks at G1 Megatron's instructions, his various components also form a "Particle Beam Cannon" and a "Telescopic Laser Cannon". In the end, I can't help but wonder if these beefed up cannons were what Budiansky was drawing on when he wrote of Megatron's anti-matter powered attack. If so, I would say the chances of Megs bluffing Metroplex are much smaller.

And what of Megatron's gun mode itself? What type of blast was that? Fusion Cannon? Antimatter? Something else? In terms of matching abilities to accessories, we're certainly left with a few loose ends. How about that silver "Infrared Laser Cannon"?

True. Speed can be an advantage when one is trying not to get shot, though I guess my point was that Megatron's low speed is probably not reflection a reflection on his ability to move about dexterously in Robot mode. In that sense, I'm sure he's as able as any TF, and perhaps quicker than many.

It could be either, though I lean towards it being their fastest mode, rather than an average (which allows for quite a spread).

Hence, Optimus (8) will always be able to outrun Megatron (4) in his truck mode, though on foot they are both probably about the same speed. Megatron's gun mode likely has negligible speed. Also, a flying speed is probably on a different scale than ground speed, as it would make little sense for fast Autobot cars to be as fast as jets that can travel at Mach speeds.  

It's all relative. Metroplex would have the normal amount of difficulty one would associate with hitting a smaller target (especially a single small target, not an army). I don't think he'd be especially handicapped on the offensive... Megatron may dodge or he may get hit.

HOWEVER... I think that Metroplex is such a large target that Megatron almost cannot miss. I didn't mean to say that Metroplex would have no chance to hit, so much as Megatron would have no chance of missing.  

I didn't mean to suggest that it doesn't apply to his combat abilities as well, but that it might also apply to his resource management skills and his repair skills (able to work on 4 bots simultaneously!). I think that Metroplex is simply coolly competent at all his assigned tasks... though when it comes to specifics, such are the pitfalls of having a vague stat such as "Skill" with no qualifiers.  

There you go with the scientific thinking again, applying such things to a 50 ton robot who shrinks to the size of a handgun.  

But your explanation is as good as any for why he would ever bother to transform in combat. Functionally, greater penetrating power could be perceived as a more powerful attack. It might also give him access to greater precision that his massive cannon wouldn't allow for.

In IDW however, Megatron seemed to create a blast of comparable size to his regular cannon. Who knows?

At longer range, that probably wouldn't really be a problem. Also, he seems to be able to float somewhat...but I'm still not convinced that he would be able to use his antimatter blast in that mode anyway.

Not necessarily. If anything, the artificiality of a formal tournament or duel (however that works) would tend to diffuse the immediacy of the situation.

IE... on a battlefield you'd just try to strike and keep moving, helping your forces towards their objective. In a duel, where the objective IS your opponent, the tendency would normally be towards assessing your opponent and proceeding with caution. At least that's how it's been in the duels I'VE fought.  

The "tournament" circumstances do tend to abstract things a bit. However, I think Megatron has a few things going for him... his intelligence, ruthlessness and speed (at the very least, simply due to his smaller size and weight) suggest to me that he would be the first to strike. Likewise, though I don't think Metroplex is by any means incompetent, as an Autobot who generally relies on his heavy armour and fulfills an expressly defensive role, I don't see him as being the type to fire the first shot.

I don't think that this is a contentious or incongruous statement. I think most people would probably agree with me on that point... it's just that after so many words spilled, some folks have a vested interest in propping up "their man" in this fight.

Megatron = experienced consummate warrior with an aggressive and merciless style. Metroplex is relatively new, has far far less battlefield experience, has little reason to fear any attack, and holds a humble, less combative personality. It's even actually suggested by his profile that Metroplex is generally reserved, while Scamper and Six-Gun express his more outgoing and violent sides respectively.

True, and that was more of a devil's advocate point on my part anyway. I do believe that Metroplex would probably have a standard array of sensor equipment for scanning his immediate area, though no such thing is mentioned in his long profile alongside his sizable list of other capabilities. Therefore I think it's probably presumptuous to start ascribing all sorts of advanced attributes or outstanding accuracy to his detection systems, when at best he probably is equipped only with the basics.

Based on his great size, his very low Speed rating, and the tendency for almost all large transformers to be attributed a degree of sloth according with their size... lugging his tremendous bulk around, either in battle station mode or not, would make him slower. Walking, dodging, gesturing. Simply put, it seems like an intuitive conclusion... and thus rather disingenuous for you to try to insinuate otherwise.

In the quest for the utter destruction of Megatron, I must say the Metroplex camp are making cases for all sorts of revisions of how Metroplex should be portrayed, which under any other circumstances, would never occur to them... trying to deny what is most natural, obvious or logical. Seriously dude... it's starting to feel cheap.

I tend not to use the cartoon as a reference for much, and the comics were only marginally more credible. Also the fact that you're trying to make the case that "Metroplex didn't seem to move slowly" in the static images of a printed comics page teeters on the brink of self-parody.  

Moving targets are never easy to hit, especially not small, distant ones. Honestly, I've never really decided for myself whether I think Megatron should be able to fly in Robot mode. But if Metroplex is flat on his back from an antimatter blast, it hardly matters does it?

For Metroplex, that would be a terrible option. And pointless, as at long range, he's STILL an easy target.

And yet, in the comic book reality (and rather restrained comic-book reality at that) of Watchmen, Ozymandias manages it. But you do seem to be having some difficulties with the whole "comic book reality" thing. The rules are a bit different here.  

Yawn. Still not fast enough. Too big. Too slow. The fact that you're trying to make a case for Metroplex dodging a blast directed at him, perhaps already fired at him, to me shows that you've totally lost sight of where you are and what you're really arguing about.

I have to say, I've tried not to be cheap in this debate. I've made a lot of concessions, right from the beginning, out of an attempt to be fair to both characters. I've handed Megatron a lot of limitations based on narrative logic or common sense...

On the other hand, in the Metroplex camp, concessions have been almost nil. Every point, whether logical, or not, has been fought tooth and nail all to grant Metroplex any possible advantage someone could muster, and demote any sensible weaknesses he might have to nothing. The implication that Megatron's listed abilities wouldn't even work right has been applied. Nits have been picked, hairs have been split, bullshit has been slung, numbers and science with tenuous bearing on the issues at hand have been cited to prop up utterly arbitrary statements. Cheap shots all around.

When you're arguing that Metroplex is going to stop, drop and roll to successfully dodge a shot from none other than Megatron... dude, ya lost me... totally.

I approach these battles mostly from the point of view of how I would write them, if I were somehow integrating this fight into a story or a comic book. I look at both characters... their abilities, their status, their personalities... and I vote based on how I would see it happening.

The way I see it, Megatron has one good shot at this... if he can make it work. One clean shot, and he can probably take it. I happen to think he can do it. I believe in Megatron.

And that's how I would write it if I were working for IDW or whoever, which would make it "canon"... along with all the other stuff that people seem to selectively worship or ignore.  

zmog

 

Seriously dude? Considering Megatron has been the underdog and trailing with less than half of Metroplex's votes during the entire poll... isn't that just a little bit lame??

Besides, I had no idea that you were such a Metroplex Fanboy! I think that might be even lamer!  

zmog

 

I posted that just for you my dear SMOG  And I only wrote one word. Look what you wrote.....

Now enough of this banter! We have a NEW battle to attend to!!! 

 

I've been away for a few days, but the debater in me can't let this go, so discussion continues (at least on my end) after the match has already been decided.

Have you forgotten which fiction you're in? How is Bruticus more durable than Bumblebee? Astrotrain be able to be larger than Devastator but not as powerful? To put it into the larger comic book spectrum, how does Iron Man's power get absolutely dwarfed by someone smaller than him (Franklin Richards) or someone much larger (Galactus)? The point is that there is no standard and characters are written according to their own specific rules. Megatron can size change...ok so can Soundwave and his cassettes. Seeing as how Metroplex's anti-matter guns are his most powerful weapons, and the most powerful threat opposing Metroplex is Trypticon, it's safe to conclude that these weapons are designed to be the last resort response before physical engagement. But you insist on saying that Megatron's is just as powerful, only smaller.

That's not the context of the profile. "To merely scratch" connotes a light scratch, that's not a gash, which is what your cat would do in front of your face.

^That's pretty weak. "Probably"..."maybe"..."roughly", all your assumptions/reasonings. The hiroshima blast is also a technically an atomic weapon, whereas the site I referenced specifically references modern nuclear weapons, and there is a difference, as I'm sure you're aware.

Now nowhere do you address the small town of 6400 or so that I found using google, covering an area of 4.1 square miles. We don't even need to use precise measurement techniques to know that the site I reference (which you dismiss as "stacked numbers" and immediately follow up with "the most logical conclusion" while in the process totally ignoring the facts provided by the site) shows the blast radius to comfortably exceed 4.1 square miles...the whole map of the city is 75 square miles. Of course, it is "logical" for you to conclude that leveling a small town is equivalent to a low-yield nuclear device, when I just referenced a scientific site that shows a low-yield nuclear device levels much, much more than a small town. In fact all of the locations to choose from that site, are cities, because towns are too small. Megatron's regular gun can level a "small town".

Again, using your opening phrase, have you forgot which fiction you're in? The whole description of metroplex's profile is to pimp how durable, ultimate autobot, last line, 1 and only reserve force, etc. etc. A scratch is a scratch. Again the words, "to merely scratch it would require at least a low-yield nuclear explosion" literally means "to merely scratch it, you must do at least x or y amount of damage." There's no structural stress, no distortions, it literally says "to merely scratch." And just so you can understand perfectly (and I can't believe I have to do this, but in the interest of no misunderstanding)

merely - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

3rd definition: "Being nothing more than"

And the whole phrase thus means "To do nothing more than scratch his armor, you are required to use at least a low-yield nuclear weapon"

Again, this is fiction...where Final Wars Godzilla can stand at ground zero at the impact of an asteroid that obliterates all of Tokyo, and remain utterly unscathed. It's not inconceivable for a Transformer to do the same thing (relatively). In fact to assume that normal things that are "associated for being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion" belies the very fact that we're debating fiction, where things can grow and shrink, and survive nuclear blasts with a mere scratch. Yup.

So yeah, if the aluminum casing of my computer is "merely scratched" you could say it's damaged. Sure. I won't lose any sleep over it breaking open though.

Nope. My analogy is on point, you just fail to grasp "merely scratch" which I have referenced for you. Spring rain doesn't do anything to cause you discomfort, you're correct. Where you fail to make the connection is that "a mere scratch" does the exact same thing, fail to cause any discomfort. Maybe to you when you're watching T.V. or whatever. But when you're in a fight in the middle of the street, and the outcome depends on your life, you're telling me that "a mere scratch" will cause you discomfort? That you'll actually register feeling that scratch, while the other guy is intent on killing you with his bare hands?

The whole point in my analogy, which escaped you, is that "a mere scratch" is as inconsequential to Metroplex as a light spring rain is on a person. Metroplex is going to be on the receiving end of all kinds of weapons fire (i'm talking about general situations) and somewhere in all of that weapons fire, he's going to stop and register the "mere scratch" to his armor? It's hyperbole to you because you don't grasp how inconsequential it is. A mere scratch on an alien cybernetic construct as large as Metroplex isn't the same as a cat scratching your face. That I will say frankly, is a pretty dumb analogy.

No man, you failed at comprehension in this particular instance.

Right...while Metroplex....stands....waiting...for shot...after....shot....to hit....

No, Megatron won't necessarily go down after one shot. But he will feel it. And what recourse does Megatron have after the anti-matter shot? Use his regular canon? Megatron was put down by Optimus Prime bare-handed...it's safe to assume that a barrage from Metroplex's guns >>> fists of Optimus Prime.

Megatron's range is 12 miles from his canon blast. Metroplex doesn't have a range indicated, but pure geometry dictates that some (if not all) of metroplex's guns have to have range greater than 12 miles, considering how high metroplex is standing. So megatron must be within metroplex's range in order to even use his gun. He can transform into his gun but each time he does that he's producing no offense whatsoever, as ineffective as it may be. That's just a losing strategy.

No. It was never meant as a serious argument. It was to show how using the psychology argument is weak at best. "Metroplex is a glorified fat, big guard, he's slow and will be passive in this fight" akin to "Megatron doesn't use his super blast ever. Maybe he doesn't even know he has it"

Sorry, can't quit when I'm so far ahead

I didn't see Megatron laughing off Prime's fists.

No. Low-yield nuclear weapons detonation is already referenced by the site. You're comparing off of the Hiroshima atomic bomb. And I think are completely overestimating how big "small town" is. A regular town is 10,000 people. A small town, obviously, even smaller. Again, the example I quoted, plucked right off the first hit from google, had the town as 4.1 square miles. Cluster bombs can obliterate that same area. The site I referenced, which you conspicuously labeled "stacked numbers" clearly allows you to select the yield. 15 KT is low yield. The radius exceeds 4 miles comfortably. I mean, how is it stacked? That's an association of scientists...what possible reason would they have to "stack" numbers? Why should I take your argument over those of nuclear physicists?

I keep going back to this to show how his regular canon is of no use to him in this battle, a significant handicap. Now if you want to conjecture that his nuclear fusion canon "probably" meets the requirement of a low-yield nuclear weapon that can destroy a significant part of an entire city, when specifically states his nuclear fusion canon can level a small town at most, you are more than welcome.

with his great aim? how many times has megatron missed optimus prime standing right in front of him. Yeah i know that's a weak response but i had to say it any way....Megs is no Michael Jordan.

Guess you have me there. Metroplex really does just stand there and does nothing. Guess he should have really taken cybertronian gymnastics, or studied up with animated prowl and his ninja master.

This argument is also known as "Megatron powers up his ultimate, most powerful shot ever fired, and Metroplex will stand there and forget that he's in a fight"

Man, you saved me from responding here, you just "doomed" your own argument, because clearly, Metroplex has a psychological issue and doesn't know what to do against a single decepticon. Much less their leader. But that is one of your fundamental assumptions that must hold true, in order for Megatron to have a chance of winning. So it's no surprise why that's built into your argument.

No, I won't apologize, but I will thank you for allowing me to indulge in a really bad, time-consuming habit of engaging in debates. And using superior logic.

I'm sorry, just had to throw that in there.

 

Nice job Mobb One. I got everything you were laying down as I was sharing the same thoughts. You just saved me the trouble of typing it 

 

All I know is in the G1 episdoe: Starscream's ghost, Galvatron (who is supposed to be stronger than Megatron) had all of his weapon's "neutralized" by Trypticon. Since Trypticon and Metroplex are in the same class, and he had no problem dealing with a stronger version of Megatron, I think Metroplex would win without too much effort.

 

I wasn't suggesting it was a new version of the black hole power in and of itself, just that it was a new Megatron, which means to me that any powers or abilities attributed to that form should really be inadmissible. Remember, I didn't bring G2 Megs into this. Who knows, maybe Cobra helped him perfect the BH ability? (heh, sorry that was just funny).

Sure it will most likely cause damage, but I don't think it will blow a hole through him, either. Antimatter isn't like a bullet or similar projectiles. It doesn't penetrate - it obliterates. Megatron would have to have a truckload of antimatter to make it a through-and-through shot, even if we are conservative with Metroplex's size. And that would completely ignore the vast amounts of kinetic energy released at the point of impact with that much antimatter.

I will admit that it could create a sizable crater and knock Metroplex over (in robot mode, anyway). That could give Megatron enough time to recover and finish the job, assuming that Metroplex takes a while to get up.

I can go with that, though it still raises other questions that I won't bother going into as it goes beyond the scope of this discussion. We've done enough of that already.

I'm sure that Megatron's gun works just fine and I don't mean to question that part of it. It's just that we've never seen him use it in any media, so naturally we would question what happens when he does use it. Maybe there are other reasons Megatron doesn't use it beyond the strain of it. So I am not trying to be skeptical, petty or otherwise. Just wondering what would happen. I would be happy to apply the same thing to Metro and his antimatter guns.

Besides, the effect of those AM weapons on the immediate environment would directly affect the details of the battle and really should be considered.

Agreed, but since we have yet to see what happens when they are used, I feel there are too many variables to deal with in trying to discuss the outcome of a battle that involves them. It tends to make things even more complicated, as the posts so far have proven.

Which is why I suggested that the strain might be in creating the link and drawing out the antimatter. He could be absolutely fine after he got the shot off. Or it could, as most of us have assumed, leave him severely weakened for some time.

Now that would have been cool to see.  

Agreed.

I realized I argued for Megatron in the last fight with Shockwave, but it's generally not in Megatron's nature to "play it cool" in a one-on-one fight. He is very much the aggressor and would likely shoot first with his regular fusion cannon. Though that doesn't negate what you're saying, it is still one more thing that must go right for Megatron to win.

The only thing on Metroplex's side that must happen for him to win is Megatron must not take him out with one antimatter shot. That's a huge gamble.

I have no doubt that Megatron does have that one chance to take him down. I just find it so unlikely that I had to go with Metro for the win.

I always thought Sky Lynx was overrated anyway. Toy is cool, but the character? Pbbbt.

And I agree with this. Megatron has one and only one shot to win. It comes down to whether you believe this unlikely event can occur or not. In a thread supposedly filled to the brim with logic, we are ultimately left with a question of faith.

Ironic, no?

I tend to disagree. I don't think he feels pain like other bots. Sure, he does feel pain, especially if it penetrates his armor. But I think he has a much higher pain tolerance than others. He is basically designed to take a severe pounding and keep going. And he probably has the ability to shut down certain areas of his person at will to prevent issues from escalating: fire dampening equipment, backup generators, etc.

One rule to remember with Metro being the last line of defense: he cannot and will not give up. Even in a construed situation like this, that part of his personality will remain intact.

And I say 9 times out of 10, you'd end up with an arrow in your head instead of apple pulp on it.  

Gist does sound like a made-up word. It doesn't even look like it's spelled right when it is. I think it should be spelled "jist".

Yeah, I know geist is a German word (I speak some). The general meaning is "ghost", though. German is just like any other language, in that a compound word does not always carry over the meaning of its components. Geist by itself does refer to a ghost or otherworldly spirit, while Zeitgeist has a different meaning, as you noted. It's similar to the English word parkway, where we don't actually park our cars.

Sorry, still trying to get the image of Daffy Duck as Robin Hood out of my head.  

 

Hush, cheerleader. The grown-ups are talking.

...about toys.

It's a sickness we have.

Though 90% of my posts seem to be reiterating points that I have already made. It's getting a bit tedious to have to keep pointing out the same things. Considering there are like, 3 of you responding, maybe you could combine your posts to avoid repetition. I'm a busy man, you know.  

I do. Megatron's super-blast is a final effort, last-ditch doomsday-class attack... like Metro's. I also believe it is as powerful (or comparable at least)... but physically smaller. My comments about the fiction were to put certain things into context. A bigger gun in Transformers OFTEN is not a more powerful gun. Megatron himself is a testament to this, though there are many examples. The tech is inconsistent, often personalized, and more than a little fantastical. Futhermore, viewing Megatron in this way is in keeping with the unique and almost superstitious power levels attributed to guys like Prime, Megatron, etc... functionally Cybertronian superheroes.

As are yours. It's really all we have to go on for this... conjecture based on some available "facts". Furthermore, nn some of these arguments, I've noticed there is a tendency to cite scientific points, and then juxtapose them next to one's opinions, and in hopes that people will get them confused. It's sort of funny to see someone lay down some science, and then make this totally arbitrary speculative leap in another direction.

Regardless, it fits the category, and is considered a "low yield" explosion... perhaps at the bottom end of the bracket, but since that's what Metro's profile gives us, I think we have to accept it as potentially able to affect him.

I did address it... and discard it because A) it's a low-yield explosion, but not indicative of the cut-off point for the category, and B) taking us away from my main point which contends that Megatron would not have to (or even be able to) rely on his "normal" blasts.

We don't know the precise threshold for being able to damage Metro's armour, but since some low-yield explosions have smaller blasts than others, and some towns are much larger than some blast radius', I don't think it's going out on a limb to say Megatron's Fusion Cannon = Small Nuke. I believe it's a fair assessment to make, especially considering the nature of Megatron's blast is explicitly nuclear in variety.

Except there is no such thing as simple X or Y amounts of damage in reality. Perhaps you're getting caught up in being too literal. Everything is subject to a variety of peripheral conditions. A single nuclear explosion isn't going to literally leave one scratch on Metroplex. It's going to have a variety of effects... shockwaves, extreme heat, stresses applied to various parts of his body (not just the most armoured bits), a large blast radius that
engulfs his entire frame. That would be a whole lot of scratches, at the very least, and likely a variety of other effects. Functionally all the analogy is telling us is that Metroplex can weather anything up to a small nuclear blast without any significant damage.

Direct blasts from Megatron's fusion cannon are not going to take him down. But it will sting and it will leave a mark.

Absolutely. I don't think I even contended that Metroplex wouldn't survive a nuclear blast. He'd feel it, no question. But after shaking it off, he'd still be able to fight afterwards. It's also kind of amusing how you flicker back and forth on "fictional conceits of the genre" based on whether they support your thesis.

Godzilla also hyper-regenerates damaged tissues, so that helps.  

Yes, but if I keep punching at it repeatedly with my keys, sometimes aiming at the DVD tray or the plastic parts, eventually some damage will be done.

Though I'm not sure why we keep coming back to this, when it isn't really a factor in my victory scenario...

I think you are certainly willfully interpreting a "scratch" as it's most minimal possible expression. Try crashing through some dense underbrush in your underwear, or taking a spill on some rough concrete similarly attired. Those are scratches too, and you will feel worse for wear, though it won't kill you.

Again, you seem to be pretending that a cat scratch isn't a "scratch"... but having Megatron "scratching" Metroplex's face with multiple nuclear-powered blasts would probably be a comparable experience. But if you want to imagine Metroplex laughing amicably as Megatron throws powder puffs at him, that's fine. I just don't think it's a particularly fair or accurate interpretation.

Not necessarily. Megatron has taken some pretty massive firepower, and quite literally shrugged it off. I mean logically, ANY TF gun should be more effective than their fists... but then, as a fictional conceit, that's not always how it works.

However, I have to ask... are you even reading my posts? Have I not said repeatedly that if Megatron were to fail to take down Metro with his super-blast, he would be finished? Due to Metro's tremendous resistance and Megatron's post-blast weakness, there wouldn't be much left to do. Metro would just hammer him into submission with his smaller guns, or finish him off with his big ones.

LOL! Mobb... are you trying to tell me that Metro is 12 miles tall??   Mount Everest is less than 6 miles tall! Sorry. I give him no more than 500 ft.

Range is actually one of the most inconsistent measurements in the TF Profiles. Most TF's have INSANE range with their weapons, beyond what you would expect their visual acuity could allow for. Others have more "normal" ranges. In the case of Metroplex, the only ranged weapon he has listed is Slammer's cannon, which only has a 1.5 mile range... pretty weak by TF standards. However, I agree... I have no problem believing that MOST of Metro's weapons have at least a 12 mile range.

Dude... who are you arguing with? All you're doing is repeating things I've already said. While I contend that Megatron CAN hurt Metro with a normal shot, I've always said that it would be mostly a losing battle.

Fair enough, but I do stand by my assessment of Metroplex. He isn't an "attacker", he's a defender. He also isn't a dodger... he stands there and takes it. That's what he's built for, and that's what he's come to expect. I think it's entirely plausible that he would hesitate long enough for Megatron to take the first shot, while Megatron would act with no hesitation whatsoever. I believe that's a completely fair interpretation of the characters.

Blades, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker, Jazz, Smokescreen, Cliffjumper... even Superion to pick a larger character... those are all Autobots I see as being the types to strike first, without hesitation, consideration or mercy. Metroplex I don't see that way.

I already addressed that... but Megatron has laughed off many impressive attacks in his time. The point being that Megatron is one tough bugger, and wouldn't be easily squashed by conventional TF artillery. You'd either have to hit him with something bigger, or batter him down with cumulative effect.

Cluster bombs are not a single blast, are they? Ten guys with bulldozers can flatten a town too, but I wouldn't compare them to a nuke.  

Okay, let's try this again. The Hiroshima bomb would be considered a low-yield nuke. It was approximately 13 kilotons. It's radius of total destruction was 1 mile. If a nuclear explosion of the low-yield variety can flatten 1 mile with a central explosion, then I believe a directed nuclear blast that on impact can flatten a similar (or possibly greater) area can safely be accorded a similar or greater potency. There are bigger and smaller bombs, and different grades of nuke and yield, and even the altitude of the detonation can affect a blast radius... but none of that disproves the basic aligning of Meg's cannon on the order of a small nuclear blast.

Yeah, that is pretty weak. Narratively speaking Megatron is suppose to be awesome, but we can't have him blowing holes in Optimus every week on the cartoon, can we? Or maybe I should mount an argument based around Megatron swiping Metroplex's transformation cog... or maybe his eyes?  

With a Skill rating of 9, I think it's safe to say that Megatron is intended to be deadly accurate warrior. Not to mention the fact that Optimus is a considerably smaller and more agile target than Metroplex.

Nah. He's too big and heavy. Wouldn't have helped him. But it's not that Metroplex doesn't do anything. Once he gets started, he can fire up to 12 pieces of artillery at a time, and he might even walk forward while doing it. That's got to at least be the equivalent of walking and chewing gum at the same time. I think he can do it.  

I'm saying Metroplex won't see it coming, and won't be able to dodge it. This all depends on how much prep is required for that Antimatter blast though. My whole argument for Megatron's victory is based on his being able to fire first with that attack, and I've never pretended otherwise.

It's not a psychological issue, it's a tendency to fight defensively, to take incoming attacks on his chest, and then respond in kind. I've factored the likely fighting styles of various characters into my assessments throughout this tournament... I'm not about to stop now. It's not out of an anti-Metroplex sentiment (though I admit I have no particular love for the character). It's just how I see the fight going down. That's why I think Megatron would win. I'm not saying he doesn't have to beat the odds. He's the underdog in this fight, but that's how I think he would win.

Honestly, I don't think that G2 Megatron is supposed to be a new Megatron. I think that whatever abilities he's retained from his previous incarnation are the same abilities as before. But it was my bad for bringing G2 Megs in to confuse the issue. As a matter of fact G1 Megatron uses the exact same wording in his short bio, regarding "antimatter for use as a weapon". I just hadn't noticed that.

This is what I'm saying. The antimatter would disintegrate a chunk out of the armour, and then a tremendous kinetic blast would be released... basically having the effect of nesting the blast's ground zero right in Metro's chest. Or face. Or Crotch. "Blowing a hole through him" was colourful language, but mostly inaccurate, I'll grant.

If he gets up. But epending on how weak Megatron is after one such blast, he might not be able to finish the job anyway. At full power, he'd have his hands full with even an injured Metroplex. Weakened, he'd be out of luck.

A fair point... the collateral damage would be pretty insane. I'm curious too why nobody's ever really built a story around Megatron using his Antimatter attack. I would have thought the Japanese at least would have done something like that.

It would be great to see some story with Megatron standing on the prow of a spacecraft, meeting some kind of battle cruiser or fleet head on... powering up, and wiping it out in a desperation tactic, unleashing a weapon on the level of a Sol System from Gundam, or the Reflex Cannon from Macross. It would make an awesome climax point for an epic storyline.

Again, I agree... it's uncertain, and I guess up to whatever writer eventually tells the story to interpret. Maybe Shane McCarthy will do it before the end of AHM.  

That is one interpretation, yeah... definitely the Megatron from the G1 cartoon would respond that way. But then, G1 Cartoon Megatron didn't act much like a canny, merciless warlord with a 10 Intelligence. He was kind of a loser.

I see Megatron having a degree of imperious cunning. A cold, calculating side, similar yet different to Shockwave. More intuitive and well-rounded. If he knows he needs to use his single-use best attack to take down Metroplex, I think he'd play for time. Taunt Metro, or engage in a diaglogue. Perhaps just face him down, showdown style.

What can I say... that's the kind of gamble I see Optimus Prime or Megatron pulling off. They have the skill, the determination, the experience and the style to make stuff like that work. So yeah, I'll confess I am according Megatron a little "heroic perseverance" buff.  

That's an opinion I can respect. I acknowledge it can go both ways, and Metroplex has a lot more to fall back on. I'm just willing to give Megatron that "opening gambit", because I think he'd be able to pull it off.

I think Sky Lynx overrates himself.  

I have a love/hate response to Sky Lynx. Aspects of him are really silly... but I do sort of like the fact that he's such a self-aggrandizing snob, and that something as bizarre and monstrous as him can actually be the Autobots' second in command (or in the top circle at least).

I think he's a character that needs a re-imagining to really be cool. What if he's actually the last of his kind... a race of Cybertronian space dragons who predate normal Transformers, and were long thought extinct. Although he considers himself far above mere Autobots, he fights alongside them out of disdain for what the Decepticons have done to Cybertron and due to an honourable respect for Optimus Prime. Perhaps he wants a chance at revenge, because his kind were all but destroyed by one of their own... a massive, ancient, dark-souled beast who reportedly now serves Megatron... (a certain dinosaur themed citybot?).

I think this is basically true.

We don't really know how TF's respond to pain anyway. There have been numerous contradictory portrayals in the fictions... Metroplex would certainly be different than other TFs in many respects. As a battle station with multiple personality components, diverse artillery batteries and several repair bays, his core consciousness would need to be more complex and micromanaged than normal bots. He would have to have an awareness of what is going on in all parts of his body at all times, probably more exhaustive diagnostic programming than other TFs would have. But yes... as much as any Transformer, he'd probably have to take some serious damage to his armour before the "pain" would have any impact on him.

Not if you're William Tell's kid. Or not if Clint Eastwood is the guy who's going to be shooting out your noose rope before the townspeople hang you. (sorry just re-watched The Good, the Bad and the Ugly this weekend   ).

You always bet on the hero in these kinds of scenarios, don't ya know? And in this case, Megatron is the "hero".  

Yeah, exactly. I don't KNOW for sure, but I suspect that "gist" is probably derived from "geist". Seems plausible.

Word meanings are also not literal or consistent across languages. I think "geist" is probably more akin to "spirit" in common meaning (ie: more variable), hence its use in the term "zeitgeist". Though I could be wrong. We'd probably need a full-blooded German academic to give us a proper answer.

It's actually a buck-and-a-quarter staff, but don't tell anyone that.  

zmog