F**king eBay seller scam

Discussion in 'Transformers On Ebay' started by Incepticon, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. Incepticon

    Incepticon Double Agent

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    I'm sure I'm not the only who has noticed & experienced this growing trend, so I'm asking for advice on what to do about it... if anything even can be done.

    I'm referring to the annoying & equally dishonest practice where sellers will not & do not immediately leave feedback even after you already won & promptly paid for their auction, but instead choose to wait until the buyer leaves feedback first, thus ensuring they can retaliate if the buyer expresses anything negative about the transaction or product received. It's bad enough if they don't leave it at all, but it's ten times worse when they wait for the buyer to do it first - the same person who already fulfilled their part of the deal by paying in the first place.

    This way of doing things enables the sellers to essentially blackmail their buyers. If the seller takes forever to send something out or sends product that isn't as described and the buyer says as much, the seller can then leave falsified negative feedback about the buyer - something the buyer obviously doesn't want reflected on their account, subsequently forcing them to follow the process of doing a mutual withdrawl of feedback. So that means the buyer gets NO positive feedback as rightly deserved, while the dishonest seller gets the luxury of not having their rating come down a point as it should.

    This is a MASSIVE loophole in eBay's system of operations, and I'd love to know if anything can be done about it. I mean, somebody there (at eBay) must realize this is a growing problem. There should be a new process that upon payment - if made immediately, within the specified timeframe and/or without reminders being sent to the buyer - the seller has NO CHOICE but to leave immediate positive feedback, whether it's on their own accord or done automatically on their behalf by eBay.

    This has been a thorn in my side for a long time now, but it's a newly opened wound again after bidding, winning & immediately paying for 5 separate high-price auctions, none of which the sellers have left feedback about since the auctions closed as long as 2-3 weeks ago. One of them even had the balls to say they'll leave positive feedback AFTER I do when I sent a request about it. The only quasi retaliation I seem able to do is just not leave them any feedback at all since it's a guarantee that if I leave negative or neutral, they'll do the same in return. But either situation doesn't help me with my own rating, which just doesn't seem fair.

    Bleh... just had to get that off my chest even though it'll do nothing to actually improve the situation. And sadly, I've actually seen the same thing happen with certain sellers here as well... which is just as unfortunate.
     
  2. xZAOx

    xZAOx Yep.

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    Nope, nothing you can do. It's how eBay has operated forever and will continue to operate.

    My feedback has 2 negatives - from the same person, on the same sale. He claimed he combined shipping, but it was all automated through tools and another site, and it did NOT combine shipping. It was a christmas gift, so I went ahead through with, and emailed him several times about it. All I ever got back was automated replies.

    I left neutral feedback for the two items, he decided to leave me two negatives, and calling me a moron and an idiot.

    This was years ago (like 4 or 5), but it still really pisses me off to no end. Other than that jackass my feedback would be 100%.
     
  3. Rend

    Rend Decepticreep Killer

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    Sorry, but I don't agree with you 100%. I think that most sellers do not leave feedback right away because they are waiting to see if their product arrives safely. Many sellers use the buyers feedback to determine that the product arrived safely, and that the buyer is happy. If the buyer doesn't respond then that sends a signal to the seller that the customer has either not received an item, or isn't happy. You both need to communicate effectively in order to avoid a stalemate.

    I don't think this is a loop hole. I think that both the buyer and seller hold the same power over each other. There is no party that has more power over the other.

    I would suggest practicing good communication to avoid problems both in the beginning before you bid, and after the sale is completed. If you don't agree with the seller's terms then I'd advise avoiding doing business with that seller. This should resolve most problems.

    Hope this helps you in future transactions.
     
  4. Robogeek28

    Robogeek28 Who're you calling a geek?

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    I've had sellers actually e-mail me right after I've paid stating they will leave me a feedback AFTER I've left them one. Too bad I don't care about feedback like others do, cause they never get one from me after that, ah well.:lol 
     
  5. TTT

    TTT OutOfCommissionToys.com

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    Well it sucks 'n all but if you have an eBay account that you use to sell items and leave feedback when people pay how will you get feedback in return ?
    My feedback rating is just under 500 but if all buyers left me feedback it would be around 600 so it swings both ways.
    Who's feedback is more important ? - sellers or buyers ?
    Now what's this scam you speak of in the title ?
     
  6. Ruination04

    Ruination04 8 Years Old Since 1984!

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    Meh...I always wait until the buyer leave feedback first. Not that I am being dishonest or I am up to something, just because that's always been how I do it. I get tired of leaving buyers AND sellers feedback and never getting any in return. For example, I have left 680 feedbacks for people. I have only received 560. It sucks when people don't leave feedback so if you want feedback from me, you have to give it to me first.
     
  7. llamatron

    llamatron Shut up, Nigel. TFW2005 Supporter

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    It pisses me off too.
     
  8. Incepticon

    Incepticon Double Agent

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    That's an entirely different discussion. You're talking about why some (honest) sellers might take their time to leave feedback. I'm talking about sellers who make a point not to leave any feedback *until* the buyer does it first - even AFTER the buyer requests it as well as confirms receipt of the product in good condition - or knowingly lie with their retalitory negative feedback to screw the buyer out of spite. And that's *if* they even leave any feedback at all.

    For example, my rule of thumb is to ALWAYS let a seller know when I received their product and in what kind of shape. If feedback for me hasn't already been left, I also state that I will be sure to leave them positive feedback echoing my email comments when I see that it's been done for me - which is completely fair since I was the one who paid them to even get the product in the first place. As a seller, I also always leave positive feedback the moment I get paid because the buyer obviously came through on their part of the deal.

    Where communication is concerned, it's not as easy as it sounds. When there's a "Buy It Now" option staring at you for an item that could be fairly popular, you usually don't have a day or two to wait to hear back from the seller. And chances are that if you ask them to ensure they'll leave positive feedback before you confirm to buy their auction, they'll either ignore you entirely or just tell you what you want hear to ensure the sale happens.

    As for the seller & buyer having equal power over each other - not at all. Notice how many sellers don't even list shipping prices anymore, and how many of them even state they will not give you a shipping price until the auction is ended since they supposedly have no idea what it will cost. You could find yourself with a $40.00 or more shipping bill for a 1 pound item. If you don't pay it - welcome to negative feedback territory.

    Add to that, sellers can (and do) often specify ridiculous shipping times to cover their asses from the 45 day window of time to file a dispute with PayPal. As long as their auctions state that transit time could take between 4-6 weeks, the buyer has no leg to stand on when they wonder where their stuff is after that amount of time has passed. Why? Because the seller already warned you. Of course those are auctions to avoid - I realize that - but there's many people who get suckered nonetheless.

    And the best one of all is that as long as a seller provides some sort of tracking number - ANY tracking number - PayPal more often than not closes disputes opened by buyers claiming they haven't received their stuff. Even in recent weeks, I've seen other buyers on these boards say the same thing has happened to them - where the sellers have provided phony tracking numbers about product they supposedly sent out, yet the buyer is sitting there 3-4-5 weeks later with nothing... and no protection from PayPal to ensure they'll get their money back. All PayPal needs to see is a tracking number - they never need to see any proof of actual delivery receipt.

    I realize that buyers can & do screw sellers as well, but there's no question that sellers still have the most power overall. Between their shipping times, shipping prices, feedback blackmail, etc., it's no more reliable than a privately done transaction on forums like these. And that's why eBay should up the ante on their so-called buyer protection.

    Where the feedback situation is concerned - the topic of this thread - it might not be important to some people, but it's important to me. eBay has a feedback system for a reason, and if I'm coming through on my end of the deal, I want it to be reflected. And if a seller is a scam artist, that should also be reflected. But this growing trend of withholding feedback is skewing everything, and in turn allowing a LOT of shady sellers to continue without deserved consequence.
     
  9. webz

    webz Banned

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    I post feedback after the buyer, merely coz A) I want to make sure everything went well with the transaction and B) if something does happen, or they become the customer from hell because they didn't think they got what they were expecting (had that happen to a friend. he explicitly listed every detail of the auction, and still the buyer claimed he was deceived and left bad feedback), I don't want my selling rep ruined by some dinkhead and not be able to pay him/her back in full.
     
  10. webz

    webz Banned

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    That is the buyer's fault for being stupid, not the seller's fault. The seller is allowed to place any restrictions and conditions on his auction as he wants (within legal limits). If the buyer is too stupid to read, then I say he deserves to get screwed over.

    It's like the violent video games, or the toy with small parts labeled 5+ and a 3 year old chokes on it. It's not the manufacturer's fault, it's the bad parents' fault. If parents took a more active role in their child's life, there wouldn't be so many frivolous stupid lawsuits.
     
  11. Incepticon

    Incepticon Double Agent

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    Sarcasm noted. The difference between forgetful or a-hole buyers not leaving a seller feedback (in return), and that of a seller intentionally *withholding* feedback until they get it should be obvious. Therein is the scam I'm speaking of in this particular thread.

    And of course I'm talking about it in the context of prompt paying buyers - not the ones that need dozens of reminders. It's not a thread trying to open a can of worms about ALL the rights, wrongs & loopholes of eBay - it's about the particular situation of what honest & fast buyers have to deal with more & more each day with seemingly no resolution in sight.
     
  12. Optimus Scourge

    Optimus Scourge Arcee's boy toy Veteran

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    Exactly.
     
  13. jourdo

    jourdo TFW2005 Supporter

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    I agree 100% with you man! This ticks me off to no end when you pay right away and get nothing in return for fulfilling your end of the transaction. I think that if you pay with Paypal there should be some sort of automatic feedback (with regards to payment) on your account. Sure the seller could still say you were an asshole if you deserved it, but at least you were an asshole who paid him right away.
     
  14. Zoltaire

    Zoltaire TFsource Emissary

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    As a general rule, I send an email confirming that an item has been shipped. In that email, I ask the buyer to leave me positive feedback if they have received and are satisfied with their purchase. I only leave feedback AFTER the buyer has left me feedback. Just buying something and paying does not mean that the transaction is over. You as a buyer still need to get the item(s) and be satisfied. As a seller, I have no way to tell if you were happy with your purchase. I can make sure the items get there using shipping confirmation, but as far as I am concerned, the transaction is not over until feedback is left and both parties are happy.

    I agree that both buyer and seller can equally screw over the other with feedback, and that the solution is good communication. So, as a general rule, I don't leave negative feedback. Things can always be worked out in my opinion. Plus, I'd rather have no feedback than negative feedback, so the people that don't want to leave it, fine.

    It just doesn't make any sense for the seller to leave positive feedback immediately after the buyer pays. There's so much more that happens after that point. I actually wouldn't have a problem leaving feedback first if my customers would go out of their way to let me know that they received the items and are happy. But most buyers don't do that.

    I also think that seller feedback is way way way more important than buyer feedback. A buyer with 96% can still buy stuff. But alot of people, me included, won't even buy from a seller with a 96% rating. I want to buy from people that make no mistakes, and I'm sure alot of people feel the same way. Even if you can read the actual feedback, sometimes you just don't.

    Everyone has there own way of doing business on ebay. As we all know, its those people that just immediately leave negative feedback, due to lack of patience or lack of experience, that make us all fear 'leaving the first feedback'. That's the stuff that truly isn't fair. Especially when we as the buyers or sellers are willing to communicate and work out the situation. That's why I just don't leave negative feedback.

    Just my two cents.
     
  15. defstar

    defstar Autobot...

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    Bingo...!!!
     
  16. Incepticon

    Incepticon Double Agent

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    That's very similar to the solution I stated that I want to see happen, but yours is better :)  The auto feedback from an immediate or "within time specified" PayPal payment would indeed be a better idea, then that way the seller can still leave their own feedback based on whether or not the buyer turned out to be great or a paranoid nightmare to deal with. As long as that prompt payment is automatically noted somewhere, that cancels the option of a pissed off bad seller to lie about not getting payment, waiting for payment, etc.

    Excellent post, and I agree 100%. Even though my own system of doing things is to leave a buyer almost immediate positive feedback, there's no question that I've gotten screwed by doing it too soon. There have been MANY times where I regretted saying that the buyer "was a pleasure to deal with" after they start freaking out that a package from Canada to Australia, for example, didn't arrive with 5-7 days after the auction closed.

    That said, as a seller, I'd still rather risk giving a buyer who pays quickly advanced positive feedback than pull what I have to deal with as a buyer - begging & pleading for proper feedback to get left weeks after I already paid and confirmed receipt of product in good condition. It'll always be a balancing act of trust & communication, but there's no question that there's more eBay could certainly do to ensure that fast buyers get appropriate feedback ratings indicating as such.
     
  17. teepo112

    teepo112 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Incepticon

    I could not agree with you more. I just had this experience--my most recent purchase in fact. The item was described as brand new factory sealed and when I got it, it was used and resealed. The seller of course waited for me to leave feedback first. But before I did, I contacted him (yeah.. . communication is the key yeah?) but he ignored me. I waited a few days after sending him that email. Then I had to leave a neg feedback for him, and you guessed it, I got a neg myself. I even paid him within a few minutes after winning. What an asshole.

    Anyway, your post is exactly what I have always wanted to say (also from past experiences) but never could put into words. Have you considered writing to eBay?
     
  18. RoboticPlanet

    RoboticPlanet Exclusively Exclusive

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    I completely disagree with any requirement that a seller should leave feedback first. I buy & sell equally as much on eBay and have believe the it's more likely the buyer is the one to blackmail a seller. It's typically the buyer who believes they have reason to fault the seller. Below is a list of reasons that come to mind where a seller could receive less than positive feedback.

    lost package
    package didn't arrive "quickly"
    poor padding
    broken item
    inaccurate description
    excessive shipping
    Bad communication

    Almost all are reasonable to leave a neutral or a negative, right? Unfortunately though not all buyers are reasonable. Let me digress and boast for a second: I feel I'm a fairly good seller, and have feedback to back that claim; I state my feedback policy in the auction, I ship within 48 hours, only charge $.10 "handling" fee, I email buyers when their package is shipped, and always make sure there is sufficient padding. Still, I ALWAYS have people complain about those things. I don't just mean a little, I mean people who come bitching about where there item is or the the box came damaged thus so were the contents, or they didn't read the description and it wasn't what they wanted. I've had threats of negatives over these issues, and I'm sure some could be arguably valid; I acknowledge I've screwed up before but typically just don't receive feedback in the end. I would be loaded with negatives, as would nearly all sellers, since it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone. Sellers have much more room for human error, and not all buyers are understanding of this. Of course a good seller will go the extra mile to fix problems. There's no way to differentiate a sane buyer from an insane one until the transaction is finished on both ends. The ability to not leave feedback seems to be the only way even things when transactions go bad.

    The one place where the ability to leave feedback whenever I or any seller pleases is when the buyer is a scammer. The 3 scams I'm thinking of are 1) Credit Card chargebacks which can be done any time buy a buyer and Paypal is helpless stop it . 2) Claims that an item wasn't received only because tracking wasn't placed on the package so Paypal automatically awards funds to the buyer; and 3) credit card theft through Paypal. I was a victim of 3 and had a friend a victim of 2. In both situations the buyers seemed to be model buyers before the scam took place. Leaving a negative didn't get me crap back but it was the only thing I had and provides information to future sellers that the buyer is dishonest.

    Check out the eBay community boards where feedback "rights" is such a dead-horse-beating issue people typically only reply with STFU-type comments now. Even though the minority of eBayers share your feedback belief, changes happened. No one thought eBay would ever address the issue but then they introduced the seller star feedback. I recommend using that if you want to get your positive and semi-anonymously express your opinion without consequences.

    If you're mainly a buyer, I don't quite understand the urgency to get more feedback. After you've received one or two, most sellers' fears of a deadbeat buyer are quelled. It's only as a seller does having a lot of feedback actually matter. And once you've reached a crap-ton of feedback getting more isn't really an issue either. Of course receiving a negative still isn't acceptable (for me) yet.

    OK, enough procrastination, back to homework.
     
  19. TTT

    TTT OutOfCommissionToys.com

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    Either way - buyer or seller - it's called covering your ass and EVERYBODY needs to do it.
    Thats the risk you take when buying or selling on eBay.
    eBay isn't gonna and will never care enough to babysit/play referee with their feedback forum because it has nothing to do with how their fees are applied/collected.
     
  20. Draven

    Draven Banned

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    I was always under the impression that feedback was supposed to be representative of the transaction as a WHOLE. Leaving feedback as soon as someone pays? Transaction NOT over yet. I agree with Transtorture. My feedback should be a LOT higher than it actually is, and that's due to buyers never bothering to leave feedback.
    Incidentally. A scam is where you pay for something and get nothing in return. Not wanting to leave feedback until they do doesn't even vaguely qualify as a scam. Your thread title is hugely sensationalist, to say the least.
     

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