Episode 48 "Hard Knocks" Discussion

Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by Starscream600, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Light Warrior

    Light Warrior Photon Soldier

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    As if Optimus hasn't gotten short with Smokescreen before? He was furious with him when he put Jack's life in danger. Even Optimus can get strict when he has to.

    I'm a supervisor where I work, and while it's not in my nature to be mean to people, I understand the importance of lecturing people from time to time. I don't do it to be snooty or arrogant, but I need a unified team with everyone doing their part, and I won't lie--some people work my nerves to the point where I can get mean.

    But that's getting off the subject just a tad. Just as Arcee was hard on Smokescreen, I think a lot of people are being hard on Arcee. Again, she had good intentions. It was tough love. I'm sure she quickly realized the error of her way. This is hardly an irredeemable crime on her part.
     
  2. Zorrakh

    Zorrakh Well-Known Member

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    SaberPrime, as you said, Cheetor matured over time, however we don't know how much time there is between episodes in Beast Wars (by any indication, it was several months), so of course he has had more time to mature. Smokescreen has not been on Earth for very long; at most it's only been a couple of weeks, which hardly leaves time for the kind of maturity that Cheetor had.

    And I actually would suggest that Cheetor was obviously outnumbered each and every time. He's an (inexperienced) explorer going up against criminals who more than likely have way more fighting experience than he does. For example, in the episode The Web, while he had Scorponok (in Beast Mode) at gunpoint, he should have been more careful than he was because a) he had experimental technology on him and b) shouldn't have assumed Scorponok was by himself when there could have been another Predacon around (which there was).

    With Smokescreen, while there were more bodies at the excavation site in Alpha, Omega, they were mostly Vehicons, and as many people have noted, they are exceptional at being mooks. Also, Megatron was there, and it should be the fact that Megatron was there should have kept him from going, but Smokescreen had only heard stories of Megatron prior to landing on Earth. As far as we can tell, the other Autobots had not told him about what Megatron's like.

    Miko just seems to rush in for the thrill, defenseless, while Smokescreen at least has the abillity to defend himself, as well as some training, so the only real thing I see in common between the two is wanting to get in on the action.

    Smokescreen said that the training was little more than a boot camp by the time he did it, and if we've learned anything from this show, mental discipline is something that is not learned in Transformers boot camp. Just take a look at Bulkhead when Smokescreen first showed up, or even Arcee, who has yet to move on from losing her partners and it still affects her actions and "lectures".

    So since the others are such seasoned warriors after many, many years of combat, shouldn't they be more understanding and more willing to help their new recruit? It just doesn't seem like their trying to help Smokescreen. At least the other Maximals were trying to help Cheetor, and that contributed to his maturity. Smokescreen only has Optimus to look up to, and he's way too busy to help Smokescreen. If Smokescreen had better role models I think that would improve his maturity level, however it doesn't seem like that's there, and that's not his fault.
     
  3. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree with everything you said. I'm just quoting this because I think someone missed the point you were trying to make and I'd like to add something to this. More on that later.

    You think Optimus isn't an active leader? I think you're looking at the wrong show. Sounds more like you're talking about RID. Don't get me wrong I like RID it's pretty high up there on my list of favorite Transformers series but Optimus Prime spent most of that series standing around at Autobot HQ while other Autobots did most of the dirty work. Even Side Burn who was the most immature of the Autobots in that series was more active than Optimus. Being an active leader is more than just barking out orders and disciplining soldiers who step out of line. Actions speak louder than words and having a leader who is more than willing to step out onto the battle field himself is way more active as a leader than anything he could ever say to his soldiers. Would you rather have a leader who orders you to do things he's unwilling to do on his own or a leader who will stand right there beside you doing his fair share of the work?

    OK now this is what I was talking about earlier. By your logic he would be stepping out of line if he said anything to his lazy coworker or said anything to his boss about it. I'm sure he has already said something to the lazy person already he was just trying to make an analogy with your opinions of Arcee that seem to have flown way over your head.

    It doesn't always have to be the boss or leader who says something to someone who isn't being a team player. There is a ranking system and I'm sure Mr. Lazy would get right back to work if he saw his boss there but isn't so keen to get to work around someone who isn't signing his pay check. The general rule of thumb, if the head boss isn't around and someone is being a lazy jerk, you can tell them off yourself... that is assuming that you are you have seniority over them.

    If you tell off someone who's been working there for years and you're the new guy then you have no right to talk. I worked with a girl who was like that once. She couldn't even do he own job right and only worked there for a couple weeks but for some reason felt like she had the authority to tell off people who were there for years, including a guy who was there before she was even born and was on the main staff. She was like the equivalent of an intern and still in high school and trying to tell a senior staff member how to do his job. Not a smart girl and by far the worst person I have ever had the displeasure of working with.

    I myself was never by any means an authority figure to anyone. I worked in a theater and I had at one point been offered an Assistant Stage Manager position but I turned it down because I felt like I wasn't ready to handle that kind of authority at the time. I did end up recommending someone else who I thought could do the job and she got it. Basically placed someone else above me. But I have on occasion had to order people around myself. I didn't do it very often because most people were pretty competent or there was someone above me doing that already. Usually only when there are kids around and I'm the only adult in the room. Like for example there were like 4 kids working one play and between shows on a Saturday everyone else had left the theater and I was the only adult around. They had decided that jumping off the balcony into the audience would be a good idea and I had to tell them all to go down stairs and no one was to go up into the theater until it was time to get ready for the night show. I'm usually OK with kids just hanging out in the theater between shows but not when they're trying to jump off the freaking balcony. No way in hell was I going to let that slide.

    Everything you just said is irrelevant.

    Cheetor was basically a teenager acting like a teenager. Yes he was immature but for him it made perfect sense for him to be immature.

    Smokescreen is a fully trained soldier acting like a preteen. For him, that kind of behavior is unacceptable.

    Cheetor needed to mature over time because he was a young character. It wouldn't make any sense for him to start out with the maturity of Beast Machines Cheetor.

    Smokescreen shouldn't need to mature over time. He's a member of the Elite Guard. That means he should of already reached a certain level of maturity way before he even met team Prime yet he is way more immature than Cheetor ever was.

    That was kind of my point though. He was immature in not thinking first but he didn't rush head first into Megatron and about how may Erradicons were there? You know that time Smokescreen tried to grab the Star Saber. It's not like there was only a single Decepticon in Smokescreen's view. There was a whole freaking army there. Every time Cheetor rushed a Predacon that Predacon was alone, or at least he thought they were. He also shot at Waspinator in the pilot.

    Oh not to mention, Cheetor never threatened the life forms. In fact quite the opposite, he was usually the first one to try to protect them and later on in the series he even started trying to educate them. In fact no one ever in the history of Transformers has out right blown their cover and threatened the first life form they saw. The closest thing to that would be Ironhide in the first movie but he still kept his cover. It's not like he transformed into a robot right in front of Sam's parent's and pointed his guns at them.

    Again, irrelevant. As I said above, Smokescreen could clearly see Megatron and that he had back up yet he still thought he could go in alone. Cheetor couldn't see anyone else in the web and he got ambushed. He thought he could take a single Predacon which he probably could have. How anyone can think they can take on an army alone is beyond me. Though Arcee has done the same thing but that was out of rage and guilt not pure stupidity.

    Mental discipline isn't something you learn at all. It's something you develop. The only thing you can really learn about it is when it's OK to goof off and when you need to be serious which is something he would of learned in boot camp. But seriously, he has the maturity of a 13 year old, that's not Elite Guard worthy. That's not even mature enough to even seriously consider joining the Elite Guard. That's like sending an 8th grader to Iraq. Even if he went to boot camp and didn't finish he should still be more mature than he is. Think of him as basically an 18+ year old adult acting like he's still in elementary school.

    Oh and you're going to compare role models. Well Cheetor was a member of a crew of explorers during peace time on Cybertron that got dragged into a war with a small group of Predacons. Smokescreen is is a member of an Elite team of soldiers trained for combat in a war time facing an entire army of Decepticons. I don't think role models is really the issue here.

    When you're forced into a situation you're not ready for you mature a lot faster than you would normally. Kids who are stuck with neglectful parents and younger siblings mature a lot faster than kids who actually have good role models. When you're stuck being the role model to a brother or sister you have to be mature. What really contributed to Cheetor's maturing was the fact that he got sucked into the Beast Wars. Again, Smokescreen should already be more mature than he is because this war has been going on a lot longer than the Beast Wars.

    Now you really want to talk about role models. Cheetor went into a war with no training what so ever. He wasn't even a warrior, he was on an exploratory mission. The other Maximals had to help him because he would of been killed if they didn't.

    Smokescreen was trained in the Elite Guard. They've never actually said who his drill Sergent was but THAT was his mentor. He shouldn't need team Prime to be his mentors because he's already been to Elite Guard boot camp. He's not Cheetor, he didn't get thrusted into a war under unexpected circumstances, he was trained for this. Smokescreen has had a lot more help than Cheetor ever had.
     
  4. jackDarcee

    jackDarcee Arcee lover

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    I did not take the time to read the whole thread...but this ep scared me. Arcee called smokescreen hotshot. This could be foreshadowing that smoke is going to turn into hot rod and therefore become the new autobot leader??? Please nooooooooooo

    Add to that smokes talk of "destiny" and whatnot and now he is last omega key things get downright horrifying. I love OP as the leader...and dont want this changed...
     
  5. Zorrakh

    Zorrakh Well-Known Member

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    SaberPrime, I don't think Smokescreen got the Elite Guard training. I think he just got basic military training, because that's basically what the Elite Guard training had turned into at that point. And if Real Life history has taught me anything, it's that just because you're trained as a soldier doesn't always mean you've matured.

    I guess we'll need to agree to disagree. My original intent was to say I like Smokescreen, he just needs to take it slowly. I understand you don't like him, and that's fine with me.
     
  6. moreprimeland

    moreprimeland Optimus told me to do it! Moderator TFW2005 Supporter

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    Honestly guys, I think it was and is like I said b4 in this or maybe other discussion threads...Smoke being 'trained in the Elite Guard' may just be an implanted memory from Alpha Trion.....after Inside Job, I believe that is most likely. If he joined the EG at all, he didn't get to finish and he doesn't have any other memories of his training etc... so I do believe it was just AT working his mojo.

    Anyway, new ep to discuss now. :thumb 
     

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