Doctor Who Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Movies and Television' started by deathsheadx, Apr 5, 2008.

  1. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    What are you talking about?

    1. The Valeyard was described as something between his 12th and final incarnation which makes no sense because nothing is between 12 and 13 and they're technically both the same incarnation.

    It's also said to be something that happens when he breaks the regeneration limit which means given the first thing not making sense on it's own could mean any incarnation after Matt Smith could be a Valeyard incarnation.

    2. Matt Smith was told that the Valeyard was still in his future when he visited his own grave.

    So why do people think Meta Crisis David Tennant is the Valeyard when there's no evidence to support this? Nothing about about how he's described calls him a copy of the Doctor, nothing says he'd be created in his 11th incarnation which Tennant actually was counting the War Doctor. That's too early and how could the Valeyard still be in his future during Matt Smith's incarnation if it already happened in his past?
     
  2. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    Well here we go, the start of Sylvestor McCoy's era. Is he is going to be good? Is he going to be bad? I don't know, I just know that at this point, the show was in serious need of a break to let the creative juices ferment once more. lol Well whatever the case, it's time to get done to business.

    Time and the Rani - I have mixed feelings on this episode. McCoy is already a vast improvement over the dreary sourpuss that was Colin's Doctor, but this Doctor is silly, really silly. Sometimes way too silly. He's rolling around on the floor, making weird facial expressions that don't fit the mood of the scene, and he is constantly flubbing his lines that I expect to hear from a Sailor Moon character, not the greatest genius the universe has ever seen from the Land of Character Shields Galore.

    Speaking of character shields, what the hell Mel?! We first see some poor alien girl get caught in one of Rani's traps and is instantly vaporized by it. Next, we have another alien dude almost get caught in the trap, which the ball explodes instantaneously. Then Mel gets called in one, the ball flies in the air, bounces on the ground, bounces again, lands in some water, floats to the shore, and yet, it hasn't exploded. The alien dude is even able to turn it off. WTF? There's character shields and then there's god damn GOD MODE! Mel should have been dead, deader than any companion that came before. Adric must be rolling in his grave thinking, "OH COME ON!" Oh wait, Adric doesn't have a grave as he became space dust. Seriously though, I know this is Doctor Who, but that was well beyond the suspension of disbelief realms.

    On one hand, I thought Rani trying to pose as Mel was pretty funny, on the other, it felt kind of out of character for her. She doesn't seem like the type that would lower herself to that level just to trick the Doctor. She would have found much better ways of manipulating him. Hell, why didn't she have Mel brought to her at the same time she brought the Doctor and just have her paralyzed like she did later in the episode?

    The rest of the episode was fine except the second episode took forever to end. I began to ponder if the episodes were 45 minutes in length with how damn slow that one was despite knowing otherwise.

    Overall, McCoy has far more personality and energy than Colin, but this episode was not really a great premier. It's most certainly better than The Twin Dilemma, though that's like saying getting hit in the head with a hammer is better than getting hit in the groin. Still, he does show potential to make the character his own.

    I haven't watched that episode since it first aired, and as such, the name Valeyard would have meant nothing to me since I just now know who that is.

    How could Colin Baker pull up a record of an event that hasn't even happened yet and how could they get that exact version of Mel to come to his trial if he hasn't actually met her yet?
     
  3. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    7th starts out silly, but quickly gets more serious, once Ace shows up the series will go in a very different direction from the first appearances of the 7th.
    [​IMG]

    The Jacket change is usually a good sign of a better episode and a more serious 7th
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  5. SaberPrime

    SaberPrime Banned

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    That's a totally different issue and also not even the right question.

    They're Time Lords, they have access to the very first and most advanced form of time travel in the universe so it's not entirely inconceivable that they they should also have the technology to see events in the future that haven't happened yet.

    The real question is that after that event, the present Doctor runs off with a future Mel who already knows him but he hasn't actually met her yet... so this would mean that everything Mel experiences she's done twice since apearently the Doctor met her at the trial after she'd already gone on all those adventures... but at some point she'd end up back in the court room meeting the Past Doctor again and going on the same adventures again in an endless loop. How could the Doctor meet someone from his future at his trial and then run off with that person without creating a causal loop paradox in the process? I could totally accept the Doctor meeting a past version of her directly after the trial but they clearly establish that Mel is from his future and they seemingly only met because the time lords pulled her out of the future into a time where the Doctor doesn't know her yet. It's like River Song meeting the Doctor out of order except without ever actually addressing the fact that they met out out of order... and her name is also Mel... like Melody Pond... maybe that Mel who traveled with with the 6th Doctor is a past version of River Song maybe she used a vortex manipulator off screen at some point to avoid creating a paradox and just replaced herself with a younger version who hadn't been on those adventures yet.

    Anyway... non of this has anything to do with the Valeyard. That's as I said before a whole other discussion.
     
  6. Max Rawhide

    Max Rawhide Rollin' Rollin' Rollin' ... uh, never mind

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    As pointed out, McCoy's first season is wobbly. His first story is abysmal (also written by Pip and Jane Baker and as you noticed, a lot better than their previous regeneration story of Twin Dilemma), but he gets better. The next couple are already better, but it's really from his second year that he starts to work. His Doctor then also changes from the buffoon he's now (a request of the BBC: they wanted a more comic Doctor) to the manipulative chess master, as nicknamed by the fans. He also gets more mysterious again (he still flips his lines, but thereby revealing things). He also gets a better companion.


    As for the Valeyard, we simply don't know. The origin is unclear anyway because of the writer pulling out (and Pip & Jane Baker having to come up with something), but The Valeyard is described as an amalgation of every bad element of the Doctor, an anomaly produced between the 12th and final regeneration, a by product of attempting to extend his regeneration cycle, and a future incarnation attempting to steal his own regenerations thinking he'd do a better job with it.

    Some of this could indeed be used to intrepet that the Meta Crisis Doctor will become the Valeyard. (And Time travel means that it could very well be still in the Doctor's future, even though the MC was created in his past and Sixth encountered him in his past)

    The MC Doctor technically was his twelfth life (Tennant was the tenth Doctor, and the 11th life, making the anomalous MC Doctor the incarnation before his intended final life). He couldn't regenerate and he has a personality of arrogance and ruthlesness (which Rose had to temper). He was more ruthless than the Original Ten who, upon realising he's going to die, declares: I could do so much more, even calling the human he's going to save hardly worth it. It's not to difficult to see the more ruthless MC Doctor after having spent time with Rose, growing his own Tardis (an intended element that was filmed, but deleted from the aired episode, but I've read that in some shots you can see the MC Doctor holding a crystal from which to grow a new Tardis), and then realising that he could do so much more for the (parallel) universe if he could only regenerate, and thus attempting to steal past regeneration of himself.

    But this is a possibility, nothing more. A fan interpretation of the facts. It's never stated that the MC Doctor really is the future Valeyard (nor that he isn't). It's just a theory that fits most of the facts, but that doesn't make it so. The Valeyard could come from other places (and indeed, Big Finish has given an alternate explanation).

    (And no, stating that the GI tells 11 that the Valeyard is in his future, means absolutely nothing, because Time Travel. Plus, the MC Doctor doesn't have to become the Valeyard immediately, a long time may pass: the first Doctor lived to be 450.)




     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  7. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    I like McCoy, but I have to admit that he and Sophie Aldred are the weakest lead actors Doctor Who has ever had. And not only is the writing for his era wildly inconsistent, but the show looks very cheap and gaudy (something that admittedly started with Colin Baker's time). There's a lot to enjoy, but the show's best days are well behind it at this point. There is an uptick in quality for his final season though, even though the script editor seems not to have much more than a basic grasp of solid storytelling.
     
  8. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, at this point I am watching the 24th season, so I'm not expecting quality like I got with Tom's first three seasons, I just don't want to be bored, and that is what I was during half of Colin's run.


    Yeah, I saw that in one of the documentaries and then he went behind their backs and told a magazine or something that Colin was unfit to be the Doctor. Eric Seward was an absolutely lowlife and should never have been allowed to be the show's script editor.
     
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  9. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    Paradise Towers - I felt like I was watching Dredd or The Raid at first, but this thing just kept going on and on. It wasn't necessarily bad, it just wasn't very good either. The comedy felt out of place for such a grim dark series story. It also didn't help that it yet again did not need to be 4 episodes long. In fact, this one could have easily been two episodes. Also, clearly Mel does not watch horror movies otherwise she would have known not to blindly enter the apartment of those two ladies. She should have known just by the way the woman was the moment she met her in the hallway that they were going to kill and eat her, but nope, she's way too cheery to think of that. Yet again, her character shields come to the rescue. I'm really starting to hate her more and more each episode. I hope she dies and doesn't get to go home free.

    Other than that, I've got nothing on this one. I've seen worse.
     
  10. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    I can't imagine Mel watching horror movies. She has a rather inexplicable departure (unless you accept the explanation the New Adventures gave us).
     
  11. Switchblade

    Switchblade Well-Known Member

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    I have an oddly fierce love for Paradise Towers. It’s not great by any means, but something about it just clicks with me.
     
  12. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    I totally forgot to mention the over the top commander dude who made the acting of the dude from Horns of Nimon look like a master.
     
  13. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    Delta and the Bannerman - WHAT THE FRIG DID I JUST WATCH?! I can't even accurately described what the hell even happened because it was all a bunch of random nonsense as if I was watching the Doctor Who version of "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World." The music did not fit the tone the episode was going for, none of the characters even bothered to react to their situations, and then there was other stuff that happened. We have two Americans who are as lifeless as a rock. A bee owner dude that was even more emotionless and seemed to just go with the flow. An egg that hatches an alien creature that turns into a human baby between scenes. Everyone seems to know who the Bannerman are, even Mel, despite never meeting them before (nor did they ever explain who they were). A love triangle that was pointless. More out of place comedy from the Doctor. And other stuff that I can't fathom to explain. The only positive thing I can say is that unlike the last two episodes and all of Colin's run, this one was done in an "It's so bad it's kind of good" type of scenario.

    Dragonfire - While this one may have been the best story of the season, it still left a lot to be desired. It's pretty much the most competent one of the four though. It did have some interesting ideas, but it fell apart during its third part. I have no idea what the deal was with the runaway child. It was felt like it was there for forced comedy and was out of place. Also, what the hell was up with the Doctor? At one point he just decides to climb over the edge of a cliff and starts freaking out because he is going to fall. What the hell did he think was going to happen? He was just going to magically float in the air? He's also screaming at Glitz as if he was falling when it was he himself who put himself in that situation in the first place. God damn he was dumb.

    The wannabe Xenomorph was kind of cool and Ace gave somewhat of a Leela vibe to herself. I'm not exactly sure I buy her story about blowing herself onto the ice planet from Earth, but hey, this is Doctor Who, the show where Mel survived a Pool Ball of Death, so sure, why not?

    Overall, the first season of McCoy left a lot to be desired. It was most certainly better than Colin Baker's entire run as McCoy had energy and was likable, however, that doesn't make it a great season by any means. I'm not really sure at this point what I should have expected from the 24th season, since at this point, they are going to need to grasp at straws. At least I wasn't bored by the last two episodes, which is the important.

    My rankings for this really short season easily go as this:

    1. Dragonfire
    2. Delta and the Bannerman
    3. Paradise Towers
    4. Time and the Rani

    I know people say his next two seasons are a vast improvement, but again, the next season is the 25th season, so I'm going to remain skeptical as far as the quality of writing is concerned. Just don't bore me and I'll be happy as this show has lasted well past its prime.
     
  14. SHINOBI03

    SHINOBI03 Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to ask McCoy about that scene in his panel but sadly couldn't manage.
     
  15. Tekkaman Blade

    Tekkaman Blade Professor of Animation

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    Ace has entered the picture, now the writing will pick up, sadly the budget holds it back a lot, but there will be the return of some old favorites from here on.

    Rememberance of the Daleks is decent
    The season ender the Greatest show in the Galaxy is one of the more memorable scenes of his run and one he talks about at a lot of conventions.
    The other two are okay.
    season 26 has the stories outside of Galaxy I typically rewatch when I think of #7
     
  16. Switchblade

    Switchblade Well-Known Member

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    The show does come back to that. There's actually a lot more to the story of how and why Ace ended up there.
     
  17. Andersonh1

    Andersonh1 Man, I've been here a LONG time Veteran

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    Sylvester McCoy only has 12 stories, which doesn't give him a lot of time to develop his character. Spoilers for those of you who haven't seen them all. There are three good stories (Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Ghost Light and Survival), five okay ones (Paradise Towers, Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield and Curse of Fenric), three poor ones (Time and the Rani, Delta and the Bannermen, Dragonfire), and the worst episode of the classic series, The Happiness Patrol. There's not a lot of greatness to be found in these three seasons, and a lot of face-palming moments. But bad Doctor Who is better than a lot of the best of most other series.

    - Time and the Rani: not without some merit and some decent special effects, but cheap and gaudy and too long, and with some terrible ideas (the Rani pretending to be Mel) alongside some good ones (Mel fending for herself and befriending the aliens). It's a jumble of good and bad, all the way through.
    - Paradise Towers: I like this one, despite the terrible performance from Richard Briers as the chief Caretaker. Most of the rest of the cast seem to give the material a good effort, and the dystopian, run down apartment building where people disappear and some have turned to cannibalism to survive is grim stuff. The cheap production values let a lot of the story down though, but I could say that about most of this era, so I won't keep repeating it.
    - Delta and the Bannermen: dumb but fun.
    - Dragonfire: Okay, I will mention the cheap production again, because Iceworld looks terrible all the way through. Cheap, tacky and plastic. The monster is top heavy, no one acts like they're walking on a slippery surface except McCoy, and he's just clowning around. The villain and his flunkies are decent enough, with the plotline about Belazs wanting her freedom probably the most engaging part of the story. Mel's departure with Glitz makes no sense at all, and I really don't like Ace here.
    - Remembrance of the Daleks: I don't like this one nearly as much as most do, or even as I used to. It's a silly runaround that wants to be deep and serious and talk about deep and serious issues, but it always fails to convince me that anyone on screen is anything but a pantomime character. And the Hand of Omega makes zero sense... are we to believe the Time Lords never thought to try and get their superweapon back?
    - The Happiness Patrol - dire stuff, one of the worse stories ever made. So obviously in a studio the whole time, with so many character actions that make no sense, and the Doctor running away on the slowest of go-karts with people five feet away who can't shoot him or run after him? Why don't the snipers just shoot the Doctor? (I do like Jonathan Blum having Ace get shot for trying the same thing in one of the Big Finish audios). This is probably my least favorite story of the entire classic series.
    - Silver Nemesis: we're back to being dumb but entertaining, as we get the exact same plot used in Remembrance of the Daleks. Between the two, I actually like this story better, and I enjoy the hints that the Doctor has some dark secret that only Lady Peinforte knows. Ace killing Cybermen with gold coins is so ridiculous that nothing can excuse it. However, Ace and the Doctor jamming the Cybermen's communications with jazz tapes (which the Cybermen find meaningless) is a great moment.
    - The Greatest Show in the Galaxy: the end of McCoy's second season finally gives us a decent story (rapping ringmaster aside) with good villains and some fairly decent production values for once, since they had to get out of the studio. I quite like this one.
    - Battlefield: The Brigadier in his final appearance in the series is awesome, and an otherwise poor story is worth watching whenever he or Jean Marsh are on screen. Otherwise it's the invasion of the slow moving knights with sparkler pistols. The blue demon at the end is good though.
    - Ghost Light: consistent quality at last, even if most of the dialogue never sounds like something real people would say. So many layers and ideas to this story that it really does take multiple viewings to catch them all.
    - The Curse of Fenric: Again, dialogue and characterization problems abound (the other problem of this era, along with the aforementioned production values), but otherwise this feels like old school Who with monsters and crazy villains, and new as well as Ace gets character development not always afforded classic series companions.
    - Survival: may be the best story of McCoy's time on the show, and in retrospect it really does feel like a template for the new series, with a mix of a mundane neighborhood and an exotic alien planet, and the focus on a companion's domestic life. Anthony Ainley gets to play the Master the way he always wanted, and the Cheetah people are pretty good aliens for the era, with the planet looking good as well. If only the entire McCoy era could have looked like this...
     
  18. Pravus Prime

    Pravus Prime Wields Mjolnir!

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    There's a cut sequence there, where the dragon creature attacked the Doctor in a hallway and to get away from the fireblast he had to flee and slid off the path.
     
  19. Dr Kain

    Dr Kain Well-Known Member

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    Remembrance of the Daleks - This one was actually pretty good. Not great by any means, but competently written, and most of all, not boring. I hate that they yet again brought Davros back. At least he wasn't the main focus of the story this time around. It was kind of weird having them travel to 63 since the Doctor was just in 59 two stories ago, so being around the same time period so soon was odd. I didn't get the whole undertaker/coffin scene bit. I mean, I understand the outcome, I just don't get the scene itself. Did the Doctor drop that coffin off in an earlier episode before Tom Baker's era? And it had a relation to the Omega that was in Arc of Infinity right? There was also that werid random scene where the Doctor was talking to the butler from Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

    That aside, it was interesting, the music was quite enjoyable and fit the mood of what was happening on screen, and it didn't repeat itself. I also loved watching Ace beat the crap out of a Dalek with a baseball bat. That was cool and made me think of Leela. She probably would have done the same thing had she encountered them too.

    At first I was going to talk about how bad the Emperor Dalek looked, however, it made sense after it was revealed to be Davros in disguise. I'm not really sure why he had to disquise himself though. Still, like I said, compared to what came before it, it was well done. Hopefully the next episode can be better.
     
  20. Pravus Prime

    Pravus Prime Wields Mjolnir!

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    I guess you weren't paying close enough attention; it was the events of the first episode of Doctor Who. The Doctor is described as an old white haired man when he was there last, the first lone Dalek was at Totters Lane looking for The Doctor, the Imperial Dalek shuttle lands at Coal Hill School, the Doctor says he left suddenly and unexpectedly, etc. All references to "An Unearthly Child" and the events and locations therein. The loose idea is that The First Doctor was making arrangements to offload the Hand of Omega while Susan was going to school.

    Yes, Omega is that Omega.

    The look of the Emperor Dalek there was a mimic of the way the Emperor Dalek looks in the aforementioned Dalek Comic series. The reveal of Davros inside was a twist for fans of the old comic that it wasn't the Emperor that they knew.