diecast and pricing explanation

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by wolfybulfy, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. wolfybulfy

    wolfybulfy unethical proctologist

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Likes:
    +0
    sorry if anyone thought I knew the answer to why diecast is supposedly such an expense that they had to cut it out of transformers. i was wondering if someone could tell me? what got me thinking about it is that i saw a hotwheels car MOSC from 1982 with a pricetag of 97 cents on it. hotwheels have actually stayed the same or even gone DOWN in price in the last 25 years and they are pretty much completely diecast. so, why doesn't this pricing logic transfer to transformers? sure it might be a little more expensive than completely plastic, but it shouldn't make a reissue cost $30 to $50! besides that, they have come out with the titanium series and the figures which are comparable in size to G1 cars are almost completely metal and sell for $15. i think the whole cost issue is bunk.
     
  2. Samana Rombuca

    Samana Rombuca Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Posts:
    1,456
    Trophy Points:
    161
    Likes:
    +0
    Part of the factor was the collector mentality, TRU price hiking and paying for the molds I imagine.
     
  3. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Posts:
    15,610
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +38
    I've actually heard that Die-cast is cheaper than plastic. It's mostly just a variety of scrap metals. The reason it isn't used on most main line transformers is sturdiness. Diecast strains the plastic all around it. Purely plastic toys are stronger and hold up longer to hard play.

    The reissues werent' supposed to be that expensive. TRU raised the prices due to the popularity of the first two waves. MSRP for the cars was $17.99 ( just like Rodimus Major ), but TRU jacked 'em up.
     
  4. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Posts:
    10,516
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +126
    What he said.
     
  5. Deathx360

    Deathx360 Farewell Dear Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Posts:
    4,179
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +27
    Yeah, that's why I waited for the price to go down. I got most for $10 to $15 from Amazon. Also the current Titaniums have serious problems with joints that are said to be fix on figures from wave 2 on but we will see. Diecast is cool and gives the figures a good look but the paint chipping can be a real problem. Also it has been said here that some of the BT figures are harder to transform than their Alternator versions. As for the reason why we pay more for diecast figures than for plastic maybe it is because they are harder to make, but other than that I can't think of a good reason especially if diecast is cheaper.
     
  6. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Posts:
    15,610
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +38
    Look at the difference in price from a Cybertron Voyager and the import price of a GF Voyager. It's all the extra shipping and import fees. Diecast toys weigh more, therefore cost more to ship, so the difference will be more. The only reason reissues cost so much more was TRU jacking them up. Otherwise, they too would've been cheaper than the Takara versions. Just look at Titaniums. They are chock full of diecast, and only cost $15. The lack of diecast transformers in the US and us having to import the diecast figures makes them seem to cost more.
     
  7. Deathx360

    Deathx360 Farewell Dear Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Posts:
    4,179
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    212
    Likes:
    +27
    Sorry I wasn't too clear. I know that imports cost more, I was using BT and Alternators to explain some of the problems like the stress on the plastic you talked about. Still the Titaniums are $15 and are basically deluxe figures so other than being geared toward collectors why not sell them as deluxe figures? I always thought diecast cost more so if plastic cost more are we paying more because few stores carry them? I mean really the display stand isn't so great that we could not do without them and as deluxe figures they would probably sell better. My take is that it has more to do with them being collectibles and maybe harder to make that cause them to cost more and the fact that Hasbro knows some of us will pay more for diecast. What do you think?
     
  8. KA

    KA PENIS GOES WHERE?!!

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2003
    Posts:
    23,225
    News Credits:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    312
    Likes:
    +17
    the need for DC in toys is mostly superficial, largely to the heft it provides that makes the toy 'feel' more expensive/valuable.

    we've seen how bad DC can be if not handled well with the 6" tits.
     
  9. wolfybulfy

    wolfybulfy unethical proctologist

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Likes:
    +0
    well i guess there are two issues then that i'm talking about:

    1. since it was always said that cost was the issue when switching from diecast to plastic in 1987, this doesn't make any sense.

    2. TRU was gouging us just like i thought.
     
  10. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Posts:
    10,516
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +126
    Always said by whom? Hasbro, or fans making assumptions? Really, that's a serious question, becuase I honestly don't know the answer.
     
  11. wolfybulfy

    wolfybulfy unethical proctologist

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Likes:
    +0
    i don't know for sure, but that's what i've always heard. if it's not true, then is the reason that most transformers went completely down the craphole in 1988/1989 that the designers just got lazy?
     
  12. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Posts:
    10,516
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +126
    Possibly. It could still be cost without the diecast being a factor. Even if the lack of diecast didn't make them cheaper, the simpler molds and sparser decos sure would.
     
  13. Mixmaster

    Mixmaster logh ghot SIS yoD TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Posts:
    2,741
    News Credits:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    242
    Location:
    Milton Keynes, UK
    Likes:
    +34
    That's purely cost of the material though. The cost of manufacturing may still be higher for die-cast, there are other things to take into consideration - the cost of painting the metal vs moulding in the colour straight away with plastic, then there maybe more production rejects with die-cast, and producing die-cast may take a heavier toll maintenance wise with the mould tools and moulding machines in general.
     
  14. wolfybulfy

    wolfybulfy unethical proctologist

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Likes:
    +0
    that's entirely possible.

    agreed. those tits look good, but don't handle well.:dunce 
     
  15. KidDynamite

    KidDynamite don't know nothing Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Posts:
    15,627
    Trophy Points:
    296
    Likes:
    +0
    The price ratio between die cast and plastic is not a static equation. One of the components of plastic is oil, and higher oil prices mean higher manufacturing costs. Oil prices were at a low point in the mid to late 80's, likely making the manufacturing of plastic significantly cheaper than diecast. Conversely, oil prices have been hovering around record setting highs for the last few years. I think it is not coincidental that Hasbro has begun using diecast again in some of its product lines. It is almost certainly cheaper to manufacture these days. It certainly wouldn't be the only reason, decisions aren't made in business because of one factor, but I think it's fair to assume it was considered in the equation.
     
  16. Sidecutter

    Sidecutter Evil Dealer Scum TFW2005 Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    Posts:
    5,098
    News Credits:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Likes:
    +41
    There's a problem with the weight/shipping connection you're establishing here.

    The cost difference between say, Soundwave in Cybertron and Soundwave in Galaxy Force, to go with your Voyager example, is due more to A) Japanese inflation, most things cost more there *period*. B) There is a different system of wholesaling there. Even if an importer like us gets it for less than the retail price, wholesale discounts in Japan are not as deep. Ignoring the fact that importers have to pay a middleman, essentially, and not deal straight with Takara, the cost of the product from Takara still doesn't reach the kind of reduced wholesale costs places like Wal-Mart and Target get.

    As for shipping costs, this does have bearing when importing in smaller numbers, but when Hasbro ships the toys over here from the factories, weight is not involved, normally speaking. Shipping in large quantities of that sort is normally priced by hopw many containers you use, or the number of pallets of product that are within certain dimensional restrictions so that it takes up no more than a specified amount of room. This is where some of the large importers got hurt on Kiss Convoy, and why their prices can be much higher than a smaller importer, since the large importer had to pay by pallet at a flat rate, regardless of weight, and those big Kiss Convoy boxes waste a lot of room, compared to a Binaltech box. By comparison, smaller importers were paying by weight to have cases shipped to them, which worked out in their favor. Sometimes, it's the other way around and the pallet rate is cheaper/.
     
  17. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Posts:
    15,610
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +38
    That was part of what I was saying, just not as clearly. These factors contribute to the price difference of Japanese and US toys. The fact that so many Takara toys have had diecast and Hasbro toys haven't, have associated higher pricing with diecast in the minds of collectors. When in fact, BTs in Japan are around the same price ( in relation to the local economy ) as Alts in the US.

    Yes, this is correct. However, even ships have weight limits. IF you load one down too heavy with dense enough material, it would overcome the buoyancy and sink it. The same applies to planes and trucks, there are weight limits. So if something weighs ALOT more than typical, that is a factor. Some containers can only be filled part way due to the weight, so it'll take more trips on ships, therefore cost more. For example: I drive a truck and see lots of times flat bed trucks that only have a small stack of steel beams. Based on space, it could easily hold 10 times as much. The reason it doesn't is because it would be too heavy. So he's driving around with what looks like toothpics on a diving board. Waste of space, but the weight factor overrules it.
    To add to your comment about the wasted space of KISS Convoy, shippers also use a thing called DIM weight. It's an across the board equation that accounts for large items that weight little. Cost is calculated on dim weight if it's large, because it takes up alot more space.
     
  18. Insane Galvatron

    Insane Galvatron is not insane. Really!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Posts:
    15,610
    News Credits:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    292
    Likes:
    +38
    On this question, I refer you to the earlier answers about shipping. Even though they are deluxe size bots, the packaging is closer to alt sized. Not only that, but they weigh more than the average deluxe size bot. So whether Hasbro pays by weight or space, they can get less Tits shipped for the same money as deluxes. So that equals a slightly higher cost.
     
  19. NeilJam

    NeilJam Resident Audiophile

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Posts:
    1,469
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Likes:
    +16
    I was just thinking today how wrong it was that the reissues cost so much. I can think of two reasons why it was wrong that TRU charged so much for them. They are half the size of Alternators, but cost 50% more in the stores. Also, some people say when you buy a TF you're paying for the cost of designing it, but the reissues were designed 20 years ago.
     
  20. wolfybulfy

    wolfybulfy unethical proctologist

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Posts:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Likes:
    +0
    after charging $30 originally and then less than $10 on clearance and on amazon, it probably came out to $17.99 in the end. but will they remember that next time around??? i hope that soundwave is not the norm at $30 and the cars are back down to $17.99.
     

Share This Page