did it just need more time AND/OR Spielberg?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by encline, Jul 19, 2009.

  1. encline

    encline customizer of love TFW2005 Supporter

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    Okay, so after watching it three times, talking to many friends from 15-55, I have come to something.

    ROTF HAD ALL THE RIGHHT COMPONENTS.

    Hunor
    action
    plot(several, and some that didn't connect)
    acting was good

    So what was it?

    Was the fact that the writers strike and others things that happened and the movie got rushed?

    Or was Bay just to in control?
     
  2. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Mostly this, IMO. It's no coincidence that the problems with RoTF and the problems with G1 are very similar (as has been discussed to death in almost every thread in the Movie forum). Bay had pretty firm control over TF'07, and there are a lot of people here who liked that movie fine but found RoTF to be too much of a mess. Hell, look at Roger Ebert, he's in that boat too. Luckily I'm not one of those people. I appreciate a well-crafted story and rich character development, but I'll settle for awesome robots kicking ass. In the ass-kicking department and in just plain fun, I found RoTF to be superior to its predecessor despite its flaws. Barring another strike, I think TF3 will come closer to meeting the standards of those other folks.
     
  3. Covenant

    Covenant Mr. Roboto in Disguise

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    I think it was all the hunor. Far too much of it. Overkill of hunor can destroy a film.



    As to what "it" really was, well, what do you mean by it? There's folks that love the film and no matter the error can find no flaw to make the movie detrimental. There's others that could not stand the jumbled robots, jumbled plot, jumbled everything and hate the film with the red hot intensity of a million grand stars. And there's shades of grey of every degree all between.

    Me? I think it had its ups, downs, but no matter the issue accomplished what it set out to be by the makers of the film; A high earning summertime action flick. The plot was too, to stumble on the word again, jumbled. Simmons too over the top comedy relief. The jokes too numerous. The Autobots too lacking in presence. The many, many human bits too constant (is it that hard to focus on Sam and build a story around that, only leaving it to focus on the beings the films are named after?). Too much leg humping (and by too much I mean any). Plot devices like Jetfire's "spacebridge" handy, nod to canon, but not rightly explained, just suddenly there. The Fallen's presense too lacking, Megatron's presence not needed (The Fallen should have filled his role in every Megs scene, saving Megs for a third installment). And so on & so forth. But it wasn't all bad. There was Cullen. There was an empowered Prime. There was Shia's ever-entertaining self. There were Cycle Fembots. There was Sideswipe's kickassedness. There was the forest battle. Blame the good on whoever you like, they'll take credit I'm sure. The blame for the bad has many sources you can apply to be it the writers in general, Bay in general, the strike, you name it.

    But that's me. The only one that can truly answer your question posed is you. You are the only one that knows what "it" was for you. For others, "it" could be different or nonexistant, as said prior.





    And now it's 740.
     
  4. Pun-3X

    Pun-3X Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a combo of movie-rush due to strike and Bay's control. I don't know if you can call it "too much control," as he's the director. But it's definitely a highly influential element to the overall product. And Michael Bay loves to influence...er...everything he can. At all times. Especially when he thinks he's awesome.

    Particularly his sense of humor. Yeah...

    Now me, personally--I found this movie to be as messy storywise as the '07 one. I mean, maybe there was more mess because there was more story, but I feel like if there was some story-to-mess ratio of some kind it felt about the same. I also think this is because I was pretty critical of the first movie. (Didn't hate it, but was severely disappointed--I'm the opposite of the crowd: I really liked this one over the first)
     
  5. Tyrannosaur

    Tyrannosaur 100% Sarcastic Saurian

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    I think Bay was just a little too incontrol. There were things in it that didn't need to be in it and things that should have been in it.
     
  6. Sigmadead

    Sigmadead Well-Known Member

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    Dont know if more speilberg would have helped, look at War of the Worlds. :puke: 

    It was probably a lot of Bay hijacking things to do what he wanted, one example being the over involvement of the twins.
     
  7. Kraken2009

    Kraken2009 Megatron's Right Hand

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    A little less humor, and certainly the Writer's Strike did not help.
     
  8. Ephland

    Ephland Let's Go Rangers

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    The box office numbers are suggesting that whatever formula was used, worked.
     
  9. vektsilver

    vektsilver Transorganic member

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    No on both accounts.

    reasons:

    1.) Time they had Bay swore he would keep the july release date then not only did he not take the studios suggestion of extending the release date he even got it bumped up a week or two to release even earlier. So time wasnt the issue if Bay is green lighting an earlier release.
    I think the honest reason is Bay knows he doesnt have to do shit with this movie and it will sell regardless as Transformers done by ILM is the draw. He was just concerned with getting the most bang for his buck. Honestly I still cant believe it made as much money as it did considering you would literally have to watch it only for the pure cgi element. With the movie verse im getting sick and tired of waiting to see my favorite character on the big screen get few screen shots then gets horribly murdered before i can get to enjoy it.

    2.) Spielberg is just not the same director any more it stopped somewhere after Jurrasic Park. He is very pun erific in his movie style now and just look at the last indiana jones it looks like he has lost his touch with the common folk to make movies that follow their source. Maybe he was just rusty from being out of it for a while which I could give him as the cuts in Indy seemed very poorly done which is not normal for him.
     
  10. Poho

    Poho That's MISTER Poho to you

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    i think that they shouldn't have even bothered starting until after the writer's strike. Bay had a little too much control over this one, i think, and the writers were too rushed. watching the movie, i can see that the story is there, and it's cool and it makes sense, but just the manner in which they go about telling it is very messy.

    i loved ROTF, but it definitely had potential to be fantastic that was unfortunately not met because the studio wanted them to crank out another one for summer '09
     
  11. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    I'd put a great deal of the blame on the director. The film was just too long for an action film that was not heavy on character. A great deal of the movie could have been cut to make a leaner, meaner film with a pace that would have worked better for a popcorn action summer film. I get the feeling that Bay only has yes men so no one will step up to say things like great job boss but the film needs to be trimmed down.

    For me it had too much comedy. Humor is great for controlling the pace and mood of an action film but it seemed at times like the film couldn't decide between being a popcorn action film or a wacky summer comedy. While Bay has a great eye and timing for action comedy is just not one of his better skills as a director.

    I don't think the writers strike helped either. I've seen the writers other work and this story really didn't live up to their normal skills. Perhaps with more time to work on it they could have taken the basic ideas and hammered it into a much better story. It's like they had the frame work for something big and sci fi, but not the time for all the little details that make sci fi work.

    A bit of Spielberg wouldn't have hurt either. While every film Spielberg does isn't golden he does know how to keep a viewer on the edge of their seat. You know the good guys are going to win in a Spielberg film but he manages to get in the feel of maybe the good guys will not win. Plus Spielberg knows how to take out the bad guys. No rail gun out of nowhere to kill of the bad guys Spielberg will melt the faces off of Nazis or blow up a shark.

    I agree that the film had the right components with work by ILM, great voice actors, and all the other elements but it came out like a cake where you put in the wrong amount of ingredients and cooked it for the wrong amount of time.
     
  12. Poho

    Poho That's MISTER Poho to you

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    this is surprisingly insightful. the only thing is, most people will eat it anyway, just because they love cake.
     
  13. cnic

    cnic Decepticon

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    LOL. This is very true!
     
  14. Digilaut

    Digilaut My name is Drift.

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    I think it's a combination of things:

    1. the writer's strike
    They had to finish a draft in time before the strike began. Bay planned all the set pieces to this draft (and rumor has it there WASN'T A DRAFT, he just made some action scenes up and told the writers to write a story to connect them after the strike :lol )..if there hadn't been a strike, there would have been alot more time to finetune the plot/script.
    2. Michael Bay being Michael Bay
    This is I think the biggest factor. Since he is the director he has alot to say what will be in and what not (along with producers)..stuff like the endless list of horrible juvenile jokes: regardless of why thought of them, it's ultimately Bay's decision to put them in..I could have done without most of them.

    From what I have seen/heard/read, there's lots of little tidbits in the script that would clear stuff up, made the story somewhat better, etc. Maybe if settings and timing would have been different, this movie could have been MORE than just awesome robot cgi scenes.
     
  15. Covenant

    Covenant Mr. Roboto in Disguise

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    Whoa. I'd nearly forgotten about the new Indy entirely. With that in mind, I don't thing Speilberg having a bigger involvement would have produced anything different, really.




    THE CAKE IS A LIE!
     
  16. Moonhawk

    Moonhawk Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem with this movie was that Bay thought he could write as well as the writers could and so carried on without them. He was wrong. This movie should have been delayed by 6 months.

    People are quoting the box office figures as proof this is a good movie - but I think it did so well off the back of the last one and the anticipation that it would deliver far more. I only went to see it once at the cinema, I had intended to go a couple more times, but was so dissapointed I didnt bother - I wonder how many others did the same. If this had been the truly great movie it could have been - the box office takings would have been even higher.

    Somehow I think even if TF3 is a better movie - its takings will suffer because people will remember ROTF and will be more cautious.
     
  17. Ruthie

    Ruthie Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  18. Ruthie

    Ruthie Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of being labeled a Bay apologist. How do we know that this...

    and this...
    and this...
    happened? I know that the twins are Bay's idea since he and the writers attested to that, but does that constitute Bay running roughshod with the movie's production, tinkering with the release date and writing the movie during the strike? (From what I understand he plotted action pieces to help ILM animate the bots, but didn't "write" anything). :inquisiti 
     
  19. vektsilver

    vektsilver Transorganic member

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    so you dont remember they said they were going to shoot for July with the same release date as TF1? Never mind the fact that with a month to go they changed the movie premiere date from late june to more mid june

    There are news articles about this stuff even on tfw2005.com try looking it up.

    Its not like a film has ever gone over budget or over time missing its release date before. You make it sound like this is all set in stone when it really isnt. The studio if it thought it had a potential flop on its hands and needed a week more to edit would definately give them one more week.

    The choice to release always comes down to the director. Every aspect of the film points back to the director. While he doesnt draw say and do every little bit, he stamps ok on it and he is the one that chooses the art styles and dun dun dunnnnnn...... Direction. When people say bay didnt draw the designs or he didnt create the cg I laugh because out of hundreds of concepts he picked those and chose to write the personalities the way he wants them.

    The man is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a design.

    As for the "writing" yes he ultimately takes the original "Concept" and frame it around his concpet of the writing in the end in a Bay world it becomes more about him.
     
  20. Digilaut

    Digilaut My name is Drift.

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    I love how this thread has a 1 star rating. And by 'loving', I mean it's fucking stupid. There sure are alot of people who can't cope with the fact that the movie isn't flawless, and people pointing out so.
     

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