For god's sake.

 

I'd actually like that. Looking back at many sci fi shows, it was interesting when the line between the protagonists and the antagonists wasn't that clear cut.

The Cylons in Battlestar Galactica for example weren't really evil. The taelons in Earth Final Conflict though capable of commiting grievious crimes had redeeming individuals such as Da'an.

The way I see it, the same should apply to the Decepticons. If we look at their history in the aligned continuity, they were the ones trampled upon by the uper echelons of society. The only thing that pushed them in the wrong direction was that they were willing to sacrifice morality and ethics to accomplish what they wanted. Aside from that, they're really not that much different from their enemies; the autobots.


Qute frankly, I think Prime should delve into an arc where we explore the reprocussions of losing morality and ethics in the autobot side.

 

Well, except for the genocide thing, maybe.

 

They considered it righteous; vengeance for previous actions done against them by humanity.(its not too different from what Arcee is doing actually) Also, from what I recall it was also an attempt to replace humanity's position in the universe, believing that while humans existed there would be no place for them.

The very need to justify their actions shows that they aren't inherently evil. Also during the conflict itself, Number Six decides to save Gaius Baltar.

Humans aren't that different. Many nations have their own closet skeletons. The Cylons were just able to do it in a more massive scale.

 

Let's not go down the road of people rationalizing genocide because they believe themselves righteous. The history books are filled with such people, and they weren't.

 

Just because the action was evil doesn't mean the individuals were irredeemable. Besides, from history books a lot of the nations now have done something similar. But we don't go in calling them all 'evil'.

 

Uh, we can call the people who did them evil. I'm not going to call all Spaniards who ever lived evil. That would be stupid. But Tomás de Torquemada? Yes: EVIL. All caps and bold. I should have underlined it, too.

 

Saying nations comitted genocide doesn't change a thing about the point, yes, genocide was comitted, which made said nations horrible, horrible nations.

Southdown beat me to it.

 

I think you guys are expecting a bit much out of a kid's show and for what it is I think they are doing a pretty good job.

and it isn't as if Kurtzman and Orci are brilliant writers...i'm not saying that they suck, but the list of films and tv work under their belt does not impress me very much.

 

But again, you were generalizing the entire nation instead of mainly individuals.

 

He actually never did that, as far as I can see.

 

Knock Out was over Breakdown long before he even died. As soon as Starscream made his move for leadership, Knock Out wormed his way into his graces. As soon as Megatron came back, there's Knock Out standing next to him.

 

Because the Cylons were not, at that time, true individuals. What nation? There were about a dozen of them, and they committed genocide.

 

There were 12 models. But there were still thousands upon thousands of them, each with the ability to think him or herself. That's already a nation in my book. And let's not forget there were Cylons that acted independently such as Number Six, especially when she saved Baltar. From what I recall, there were even Cylons that were expressing doubts to the genecide of humanity during 'The Plan' film. It means that even at that time various Cylons had already developed individuality. So they are a nation.

Also if we include the final 5 as part of the Cylon nation( with their wish to end the cycle), then it shows that various Cylons were opposed to the genocide.



Also, many of these Cylons never saw what humans truly were, so were unable to judge for themselves. And the fact that they weren't given the full scope of the actions does lessen the gravity of their actions somewhat.

 

I really don't want to bring the Nazis into this or any other discussion, but you are pushing really hard. Genocide is an evil act. Full stop. Ignorance is no umbrella.

 

It's an evil act, but again I wouldn't condemn the entire nation for such an act. The same way I wouldn't consider an entire nations 'evil', just because they had the wrong leaders.

 

And again, they hadn't developed into true individuals at that point. There was zero dissent among them. They were all complicit. And the Six you just got done defending because she protected Baltar (whoop-dee-doo), also had just got done snapping a baby's neck with her hands, killing it. I'm not talking about redemption or whether a character is in fact redeemable. But is baby murder now not evil?

 

Again, as I stated previously just because the act is evil doesn't make the entire nation evil.

Also, from what I recall, there was dessent amongst them. First with the final 5 being exiled for example.

Also I'd wonder whether subtley or mercy can be applied to any act of war. What makes what the Cylons did different from what today's nations have done, especially nations with people who sit idly by as their soldiers slaughter many overseas?

Also, many of the Cylons were indeed ignorant about humans.

As for saying ignorance isn't an umbrella, the same applies for many nations including the nations I stated. If their people are ignorant of the atrocities commited by their leaders, that doesn't make them all evil.(Also, I wonder if the Nuclear attack was truly unprovoked considering the valkyrie incident)

From what I recall the Cylons were also under orders/influence from their stronger personalities, such as Cavill. This is no different from soldiers following orders from their superiors. Not to mention, the Cavils corrupted the memories of the other six to hide the plight of the final 5.

If you say that they didn't achieve true individuality yet, then it can even be stated that they were but children who had little experience of the world around them and are far less responsible for their actions than humans.

As for the six, I think that was a mercy kill given that the Six felt that the infant would not survive the nuclear holocaust to follow.

In short, I do not consider that one single act by the Cylons justification to call them all evil.

 

Hoo, how 'bout that Transformers Prime?

 

Full stop. We're deviating. Genocide is an act. We can agree on that. Let's move on.