Cybertronian EYES

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by Snake_eyes1975, Jul 13, 2011.

  1. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Ok....after watching the movie I started thinkin a bit.

    Transformers Eyes. In the movie, Starscream gets his eyes plucked out, among others. But would this be the end? would that transformer be essentially "blind"? Does Starscream have NO extra sensor in Bot' mode? not even a thermal imager? Or are the eyes a combination of optics, and sensors? but Ive heard many times in the TF universe them call them "optic sensors" which would lead me to believe they are just used for visual information, and other sensor would be used for other spectrums.


    If so, then what the hell does the actual EYE do in Alt mode? Sure some could use radars, and sonars, Thermal imaging and all types of advanced sensors, but wouldent it make sense if they could "see" in alt mode as well? If that IS the case, Then would it not lend the truth that they have a seperate set of eyes in Alt mode? The heads are nowhere near the front on some of them. One could say that the eyes transform and go into the bumpers or something but that sounds silly.

    If the Transformers only have ONE set of eyes, that stay in the head, would it be safe to say that they cannot see as well in alt mode because they have to rely on sensors?

    Is a Transformers eye, something its "born" with, or manufactured with, and once they are damaged thats it? It cant get repaired? or can they? In Transformers Prime, Breakdown Now has an eye patch. Does he do that out of pride to remind himself what happened (putting himself at a disadvantage on porpose at least) or do they only have the right parts or elements needed on Cybertron to repair eyes?

    Part of me thinks they only have the eyes in the head.
    Part of me says, Thats silly, A super advanced alien machine may have "eyes" all over it, especially extra eyes in alt mode. I also would think that if a transformer had a massive sensor suite, simply losing its optic sensor, would not be that catastrophic, as there are redundant systems....
     
  2. Prowl

    Prowl Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point. I always thought they'd be easily replaceable too, like Camera lenses.

    I don't want to derail your thread, but you reminded me of something.

    Do you think that the eyeball look is better than the old "shades" look from the cartoon? It looks like one of the wreckers has the shades look, though it's probably by accident to make him look like a Nascar fan, and not as a nod to the old look.
     
  3. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Not derailing...thats actually a point I forgot to mention that I thought about last night.

    It seems alot of the transformers have Shades, or shields, that cover the eyes for protection. So would that give more ammunition to the fact that Cybertronian eyes are one of the most valuable parts? It would even suggest they are more like humans then. Human Alliance Jazz and roadbuster come to mind...

    As for the Eyeball vs Shades...mabye they all HAVE the eyeball, and some are more geared for combat, which would have them equipped with optical sensor shields?

    Is there a tendancy for TFs with "combat" or "frontline" M.O.'s to have shields over thier optical sensors, where TFs that may be in the rear more would not need them? (perceptor...Ratchet..)
     
  4. Prowl

    Prowl Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, much like Optimus covers his face during combat. I believe Beast Wars had a combination of both, where you could see eyeballs underneath these "shades." I really liked that look. I don't mind eyeballs only, because they are more expressive, but I always thought that it made them look cool in the old toon.
     
  5. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    My theory is that we're treating them too much like machines. Look at it this way... humans are MUCH more advanced than they were millions of years ago. Do we have eyes on our elbows now? Nope.

    Just because a species is highly advanced, doesn't necessarily that their bodies will become absolutely replaceable/upgradeable with redundant systems. Their bodies work on a certain premise, so it might actually be really impractical to grow new eyes and sensors and stuff.

    Likewise, (and I think I definitely am reading too much logic and science into it) we've seen them reformat their outward appearances completely at the drop of a hat in the Bay movies. However, they can't seem to use this same nanotech magic to repair damaged parts, etc... so it could be that parts of a TF's body are intrinsically connected to some kind of embedded neural net, and therefore are not something that can easily be replaced... even if on the surface, it just looks like another cog, piston or lens.

    zmog
     
  6. Grepicon

    Grepicon Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post and points. I think that Shockwave is the bot to look to when discussing how important the optic sensors are. Each transformer is specialized to a degree and some are affected by optic sensor damage more than others. Starscream should have had the ability to continue in battle utilizing sonar (as his F22 mode is equipped with modern advanced RADAR, windspeed, airspeed, Doppler Radar and so on). This are advanced "machines" and have the ability to process data in real time faster and more efficiently than we can imagine.

    Shockwave's form does not place an emphasis on needing to "see" physical details. He is a tactician first and places intelligence and information processing above all else, but happens to be a war machine if need be. I imagine if his "eye" was damaged, his antennae sensors would pick up the slack.

    Therefore I declare shenanigans on TF3 for not only dumbing down Cybertronian technology, but for letting Starscream be killed by Shia LeBeuf with a grappling hook built by an Autobot with dentures and a horseshoe hairline.
     
  7. DevelDogg48

    DevelDogg48 Member

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    I may be wrong, but I'm an aviation nut and aircraft do NOT utilize sonar technology. Sonar is used mainly in underwater navigation, like submarines. There are also no doppler radar equipment on aircraft. The F-22 uses the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar and infra-red and ultra-viloet Missile approach warning Systems (MAWS). The largest component of the aviononics is the radar, which is inside the nose of the plane. And a pitot tube senses airspeed. It's just a "probe" on the nose for most planes. Weather data is sent from the Air traffic control ground centers to the pilot or mission data can be preloaded into the plane's computers and veiwed on one of the main functional displays (MFD's). Sorry for getting all technological :) . Just trying to educate.
    BTW: I did not know the exact name of the radar off the top of my head, lol. A little Wikipedia helped me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22#Avionics
     
  8. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Excellent. The sentence with the parts "intrinsically connected to some kind of embedded neural net" would lead to a great reason why the eyes themselves would not be easily replaced, same as for a human eye. And your statment of Humans, actually being MORE advanced than Cybertronians IN DESIGN is possibly very ture, from a biological standpoint.

    Another excellent post. Your declaration of shenanigans is kinda where I was going, but to put a more technical explanation to it. I agree about shockwave in general, he could possibly link up to a decepticon mainframe and "see" what everything is happening with enhanced imaging through other transformers eyes....possibly...But I dont really see the "tactician aspect" portrayed in the film. If I seen him barking orders to deceps in the field, or a explanation that he neural links, or communicates wirelessly to command or suggest tactics to megatron, I would say that he really does not need an eye at all...but then, couldent he just be a "thinking box" then?

    Back to one of my other points. Do you think Transformers Utilize thier ACTUAL EYES, in Alt mode? If so, then do the eyes actaully move somewhere? does a network of "fiberoptic lines" connect to the eyes in Alt mode?
    If the eyes are NOT used in alt mode, would it be safe to say, they either have "eyes" in alt mode, or the sensor array gives enough information to navigate?
    Example. Say Bumble bee's Eyes somehow move to the front of his car mode. How would he "see" to back up? Would he be completly "blind" to anything on the side or rear of him? No..we have seen what appears that Transformers KNOW exactly what is going on around them in alt mode very well. SO Mabye there is a network of "primitive eyes" that link to the Main eyes, placed all around them in Alt mode?
    We clearly see optimus driving down the road, and "see" Bonecrusher coming from behind. That gives credit that he can Clearly "see" what is going on behind him? Or is it just lil a "radar warning reciever" and he is alerted of an energon source behind, so he transformed immidiatly to get a better view of what the hell was going on back there...

    I appreciate the thoughtful engagment of discussion. This has really had me thinkin since the whole starscream thing. If in fact TFs eys, are irreplacable, and THE ONLY means of visual input, then humans would be SUCH a devstating force against them. I mean...what would really stop humans from making a paint grenade to explode, and cover a cybertronians optical sensors?

    The whole, knocking out SC eyes, and snipers taking out eyes, just shows me that humans, do in fact have a HUGE advantage. These things are HUGE, they HAVE to see, so they cant walk around covering thier eyes all the time because most weapons are on thier arms. I am very well knowleged in modern ballistics. if the small calibur weapons (in comparison) they used easily destroyed optic sensors...then why in the hell arent the zillions of pieces of white hot, super sonic shrapnel blinding every other transformer in battle. After all...The largest killer/wounding weapon in humans arsenal for the passed century, has been...in fact, Shrapnel.
     
  9. Nimbletongue

    Nimbletongue Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about this, just because it looks like a F22 doesn't mean it is one. It may not have all of the capabilities of the plane, or it may have more.

    I think I'm with SMOG on this, if I get what he is saying. Just like we can "disguise" ourselves it doesn't mean we can function like what we are disguised as. Hell, I dress up as a woman all the time, but I have yet to get pregnant. (jk btw) Or those that make them costumes at cons that transform. The can end up looking like a car, and move like one by crawling. Bah I hate typing because I lose my train of thought due to how slow I type.

    As for the topic at hand, the eyes may move to a part inside that connects to the outside that lets them see. Kinda like a sub with a para-scope.
     
  10. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Im an aviation nut as well. I DO know that there is extensive research on "dry" sonars, similar to what Bats use. Using a Hi-freq wave, to bounce back a 3d image, and as far as I read (popluar sceice awhile ago) it was completly passive, because they could change the wavelength at each "ping" to make it almost impossible to detect. It was being developed for that new battlefield robot that will escort soldiers in FIBUA environments. it could move autonomously, or linked to a unit the C.O. or soldier WORE, and it could simply follow the troops right down the street. Using the dry sonar, and a software package it would figure out the best placement, and most obvious spot for enemy activity. This was stated to be In the field by 2013.
    It also had audio sensors that can detect SPECIFIC muzzle reports, and identify if it was a hostile threat, turn and fire a gun, and achieve a hit on the target at about the same time the hostile's bullet would hit. Its was VERY impressive tech, and that was done with nothing but audio sensors. It is to be used escorting troops down a street, for example. And if a sniper shot at one of our guys, he simply died.

    So if we have that tech now....wouldent a Transformer have audio sensors at least capable of that? I keep going back to starscream. For the decepticons in the movie, he would have to be one of the more technologically advanced, sensor wise, right?

    So then......The eyes....took him out? If it was PAIN, I could understand him freaking out. If it wasnt true PAIN, then his other sensors would just "see" the dangling fleshling and squish em.
     
  11. DevelDogg48

    DevelDogg48 Member

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    As for car alt modes, maybe there are several sensors like the terrain and proximity sensors in some cars today. For us, they aren't completely reliable, but who knows....They're an alien race with advanced tech, maybe they have similar but far more reliable sensors like ours.
    EDIT: Like I said I could've been wrong. I was just focusing on the systems in the F-22A Raptor. It would still be an advantage for Starscream to have and be able to use those systems, along with whatever other systems he already has.
     
  12. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Sure! like the advanced terrain following radars on the panavia Tornado, or the Lancer. but then, isnt it safe to say if thats how they navigate on Alt mode, they are able to see "less" than in bot mode?
     
  13. Greyley

    Greyley Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's ever been explained exactly where their alt mode "eyes" are. I think one time in the G1 cartoon someone got mud splashed on his windshield and it gave him some trouble seeing...but that wouldn't explain how TFs with windowless alt modes do it (and it's also silly). A set of complex sensors would be the most logical solution, but again, I don't know where those sensors would be located.

    I doubt their humanoid eyes are what they use to see in alt mode. Remember in Beast Wars when they would change to robot mode, their animal eyes would be darked-out and blank looking, then when they went beast those same animal eyes were obviously what they were using to see. Their robot eyes didn't appear to be used at all for their beast modes. For a non-beast TF, the brain connections or whatever probably reroute from the robot eyes to the alt mode sensors when they trasform, then back again.

    There's a whole thread about Breakdown's eye over in the Prime forum. :)  Some theories we came up with: He could have kept the injury as a reminder, or maybe Megatron didn't want to waste resources repairing a "weakling" and made him keep the injury as punishment, or maybe Knockout just didn't have the equipment on Earth to fashion him a replacement eye.

    I prefer the "shades" look, but the mechanical eyeballs work too. Lots of times, especially in the comics, closeup shots of the eyes will show the eyeball inside through the glass (or whatever their eyes are made out of). The glass could be just for protection, or maybe it helps focus the eye like a lens or something.
     
  14. DevelDogg48

    DevelDogg48 Member

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    I would think that if they are in alt mode, then they are at a disadvantage as far as mobility, armor, and firepower to an opponent that is in robot form. If that is the case, their "vision" would be impaired as well, making them even more vulnerable.
     
  15. Grepicon

    Grepicon Well-Known Member

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    RC-135U, RC-135v/w still have Doppler Radar. Some of the EC130 still have it as well. They also still have the analog ADF radios, which were a bitch to work.

    I threw Sonar in there because the laymen thinks of the "ping" analogy better than the RADAR explanation.

    I am not here to get technical, as I was Command and Control Aviation Specialist Craftsman in the Air Force for 8 years.
     
  16. Grepicon

    Grepicon Well-Known Member

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    JSTARS and DarkStar Drones can "see" terrain via RADAR, they can also incorporate thermal imaging which is absolutely amazing. Why wouldn't an advanced alien race have something cooler? And why would a Decepticon Leader were a cloak and have robot lice all over him?
     
  17. DevelDogg48

    DevelDogg48 Member

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    Nice, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound all "NOOO! YOU'RE WRONG!! ME RIGHT!!" lol. I was only thinking about fighter aircraft at the time. Now that you've said that, it's like...duhhh :p 
     
  18. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    Agreed. Im not trying to turn it into a science class either, and Thank you for your service to our great country.

    So...Is it safe to say, that if a cybertronian loses the eye(s) then it can rely on other sensors? I def agree that in alt mode other sensor must be used. But then, why wouldent they incorporate another eye in alt mode? seems obvious to me.
    So then with the case of Starscream, It must come down to, PAIN. They must feel pain, and he freaked out. If he was just determind to kill the flashling, then his redundant sensor suite would have been able to "see" the insect....

    Unless.....The only sensor they have in Bot' mode...are indeed the Optic sensors...and may give more of a perk to alt mode because of all the enhanced imaging they can access in that mode?
     
  19. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Exactly! That's something that we tend to lose sight of in our technological fetishism... human beings are extremely advanced, complex, complicated machines. Transformers are big and strong and can detect radiowaves and stuff like that, but in many ways they might actually be more primitive than we are.

    Considering how alien they are in so many ways, there's no reason to assume that they would function the same way as earth machines or computers. Transformers still think and feel and interpret the sensory responses from their receptors in ways similar to how we behave. I've always been wary of granting them supercomputer abilities just because that's how WE might design an advanced war machine. We're talking about biology here (although a radically different kind than our own)... and such things don't always evolve or develop solutions to every problem as easily as all that.

    I always like to use the old stone axe example. Millions of years of human development later, and at close range, a stone axe will still kill a man as surely as a bullet. It's not like we've evolved an immunity to stone axes. We've spent much of the history of our civilization coming up with more and more complicated solutions to the same problem... how to crack open a skull. Ultimately, we're still just as vulnerable as we were in our more primitive forms... even more so, and our senses are probably dulled accordingly. Unarmed, I think a neanderthal would break a modern day marine in half. :) 

    Obviously Transformers have certain abilities and senses we don't. I wouldn't argue that... but I wouldn't always assume that a TF has all the same capabilities of our most specialized and advanced fighter jets either. Generally speaking, I think TF's see through their eyes, and so on. Radar, infra-red, proximity detection, etc... that's all extra. There's no reason to expect every TF would come standard with that stuff any more than we'd expect a police officer to be able to psychically detect handguns.

    Alt modes are the tricky part, aren't they? Do they simply have an additional "eye" filament that is mounted in the cockpit or driver's seat of a car mode? Can they see around them any better than a human pilot might? I mean, Earth cars have speedometers... but why should a TF have any actual method for measuring their driving speed?

    On the other hand, they might also be able to do things that Earth cars don't, like move their wheels independently to achieve a tighter turning radius, and stuff like that. And maybe they can feel the road under their wheels the same way we can feel the specific terrain under our bare feet... allowing for a sensitivity that the driver of a car might not have.

    zmog
     
  20. Snake_eyes1975

    Snake_eyes1975 Peace through Tyranny!!

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    I love it SMOG. Especially the stone axe analogy, and the idea a TF could "feel" the road. The idea of them feeling the road, compared to our barefeet is spectacular.

    But there's certain aspects of the movies, goons and comics, that really lend belief that alt modes DO in fact have at least human level tech. The ability for starscream to fire a missile, and hit a moving object, prooves there is some targeting/tracking system than just eyesight.

    Another angle to the bot modes, are thier weapons. They really don't use sights or scopes. So do they utilize an "ihadds" type system where the guns are slaved to the eyes, similar to the apaches chain gun? That could be a great explanation of why they miss so damn much. Not that the Apache misses a lot, but its not a perfect system. MABYE a transformer sees a recticule in its eye to where its weapons are
    pointed?

    I remember the old marvel comic books that went into great detail about "this guy can Target and track X number of targets" or "this guys optical sensors can read the date on a quarter at 25+ miles"
    I'm wondering if I dig back into the old marvel books if they would have any explanation of this stuff. But then again...its Freakin 25 years old....and probably irrelevant with the tech we take for granted today"
     

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