"cinamatic redundacy"-movie autobots

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by supernova222, May 6, 2012.

  1. supernova222

    supernova222 junkion

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    i know this may bring up some stupid arguments but i felt l,ike i had to say it.

    i feel that DOTM needed more autobots. i am not so keen on the recent trend of the autobots being this week depleated small group thing. i mean in G1 they really had numbers on their side. I am now speaking from a neutral point of veiw. the magority of the audience of the movies arnt in depth fans like us who know back stories and thing sin between the movies, they know only what is shown on the screen. so for characters to be introduced, are not openly killed and disappear the next movie is what i call a "cinamatic redundacy". its like if the new batman movie coming out didnt have alfred or commissioner gordan.

    so i feel that jolt and the twins should have at least been background characters in DOTM. since a general movie goer could assume that the arcees died due to their condition in battle and them not being shown again.
    jolt and the twins had no such situations.

    the reason i first started thinking about this was at the end of DOTM when the the autobots and soilders were chargeing sentinal and the piller and there are like 30 humans with just bumblebee and ratchet with them. sideswipe and mirage were kinda just "there". they both only had one spotlight moment each in the movie. the wreckers were alright, serving a few good moments that had impact on what was going on. a further reason for my beleif of autobot shortage is how all the autobots are shown at the end of the battle(the first image below) but then in one of the closing shots, half the bots are missing(second image below.

    would it have been so hard to add them into the background and battle scenes. the movies, and transformers in general, have never had a problem with space fillers. they sure would have lookd cool running through that gauntlet scene with the other bots and soldiers.

    so as a director, i think it was down right stupid for micheal bay to eliminte charcters in between movies simple because he didnt like them or such. it is over all i consistant ind illogical for someone as experienced in cinema to make this choice. as a service to the general audience of the films he should cover all the bases of his movies.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    The thing with Jolt was that he was a living prop in ROTF, making him a background character would be a waste of CGI [especially since they have much bigger needs in DOTM, such as Driller and the invasion].

    The Twins is a more troublesome case, Bay actually said he liked them, but an entire armada of people absolutely despised them, considering them the Jar Jar Binks of Transformers, Michael Bay, noticing the bomb he had in his hands, got rid of both due the extreme criticism. They were supposed to die in DOTM, but at this point, their deaths would cause more laughter and joy than sadness, so gave up on both.
     
  3. TylerMirage

    TylerMirage I vawnt my berdt.

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    I don't really think that "Cinematic Redundancy" is an appropriate term for this situation. "Cinematic redundancy" implies something that is extra, superfluous, not really needed, in excess, etc. in the film. "Not giving a darn about robots as characters" is more apt. :p 

    Don't get me wrong, if you're going to introduce characters, either explain why they're suddenly absent, or don't make them absent. The problem is that we need more screentime for the characters who do get to see, rather than throwing in more background characters just for the sake of the seven people who cared where Chromia and Elita-One went. The problem with keeping characters like Jolt, The Twins and the Arcees in DotM is that then you run into the problem of having even more minor characters who don't get time to shine, which would lead to more complaining. Why bother having Jolt or Arcee if they're just going to be in the background and not do much? RotF taught us that. If they did the same (or less) in DotM as you propose, then they might as well not even be in the movie at all. If he keeps those other characters, then people complain about the excess amount of robot characters who have nothing to do but walk around in the background. If he removes those characters, then people complain about the absence of minor characters who would offer little-to-no value to the movie. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. As for the Twins, well, that's a more sensitive situation, so I'll just leave them out of this for now.

    I, for one, would've preferred that the 'Bots we did have (Sideswipe, Ratchet, Dino, Wreckers) got some more battle time, or even included in more action shots with the soldiers before thinking about the likes of Jolt and Arcee in DotM. Let's focus on what we have, rather than worry about what we don't.

    And yes, in that sequence, it's just poor editing. That's why the Wreckers and Dino are suddenly absent. Nothing to do with Bay making a conscious decision about them; simply that the sequence was a jumbled mess and things got lost in the chaos (read: Bay editing). I'm with you, those closing shots could've been so much better if they had focused more/included the other robot characters like Dino and the Wreckers.

    EDIT: Balder, ninja's with the best of 'em.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  4. supernova222

    supernova222 junkion

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    my point is what wrong with that, whats wrong with having them in the background and notgiving them spotlight, not everycharacters needs, every movie has characters that do something, are minor and dont really do much. who says there has to be a total number of autobots and we have to get to know them all. look at the frickin decepticons in the movie, do you want to know EVERY single one, no, sometimes you just need people for support, fillers, and to just stand there and look cool.
     
  5. TylerMirage

    TylerMirage I vawnt my berdt.

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    I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I'm not saying that every character has to have their own showcase sequence and life-changing arc. That's why there's the distinction between main roles, supporting roles, bit parts, cameos, minor roles, etc.. Not everyone can be the Jetfire, Wheelie, Sentinel or Megatron of the movieverse. Sometimes you have to have a Dino and Igor. For every Bumblebee there's a Long Haul. But lack of background-filler Autobots is not really a fault of the movie. It's a creative decision. You either have them or you don't. The story either calls for them or it doesn't. They chose not to and it save them $X that they felt wasn't needed on throwing Jolt and Arcee in those scenes. Spending time and money on characters that they felt weren't needed just for the sake of "let's have 23 more shots of Autobots out of focus in the background". They could've done that easily with the likes of Sideswipe and the Wreckers; no need to bring in other Autobots for that.

    There's not really anything blatantly "wrong" with it. In my mind, cannon fodder characters meant to fill the backgrounds are best used for faceless troops and bad guys, akin to Stormtroopers and Vehicons; characters (that are barely "characters") that are easily replicated in terms of production and whose sole purpose is to fill the background and be blown away. Autobots could definitely use some of those, but for the purposes of these movies, they're not really needed. Especially in the movieverse. The idea of faceless, nameless drones for the Autobots that stand in the background and are blown away goes against the look and feel that these movies are going for in terms of "the good guise are awesome and the bad guys are evil monsters boo!". Of course, this is something that a potential reboot/remake in the future could explore. But it all goes back to the fact that no matter what decision would be made on the matter - if we had Jolt/Arcee/Twins in DotM or if we didn't - there would always be one side that was disappointed with the choice. They had to make a choice, X or Y, and they chose X. The 'Y' side was sad. If they chose Y, the 'X' side would be sad. The filmmakers made a creative decision and some people didn't like it. That's cinema summed up.
     
  6. supernova222

    supernova222 junkion

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    you are of course right as well but look at it this way, the decepticons have this huge army hiding on the moon. what about the autobots? i understand that they are very reduced in numbers compared to the cons but i think they need some background soldiers so to show that they are more of a dwindling army instead of a very small minority group of their race. you see what im saying.

    just by being there, the extra characters do shine by fighting on and remind us that it is actually a WAR, much like the human soldiers.
     
  7. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

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    Are both those shots facing different directions? Maybe the missing guys are behind Optimus in the second shot.
     
  8. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    If anything, I felt like there may have been too many Autobots in the films, since they were treated like characters without given any real time for characterization and impact on the story. If they had been treated as background characters, it might have actually gone smoother.
     
  9. TylerMirage

    TylerMirage I vawnt my berdt.

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    They are indeed facing different directions. It would make sense for the other 'Bots to be behind Optimus in the second shot, but notice how they arrive. Bumblebee and the gang arrive on one side (with Sentinel closest to them) then suddenly they're on the other side (with Megatron closest to them). It's an editing error regardless. Either 'Bee and the gang magically switched sides of the bridge, or Megatron and Sentinel magically switched places.
     
  10. supernova222

    supernova222 junkion

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    either or, lol
     
  11. Bumblebee765

    Bumblebee765 Wrecker

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    The second shot is facing the other way, so the Wreckers and Dino were probably still on the other side of the bridge. Bumblebee, Sideswipe, and Ratchet probably crossed the bridge to the other side. Bumblebee was already on the bridge, so it's not too far fetched to think that he walked to the other side, but Ratchet and Sideswipe getting over there is slightly illogical. :wink: 
    The second shot actually has some interesting details in it. A piece of Sentinel Prime's back flaps,Optimus Prime's arm, Megatron's gun, and even Megatron's head with Optimus's axe still in it are present in the scene, which I never noticed in all the times I've watched the film. It looked like just simple rubble every time I watched it, but with that image you posted I noticed the details. :) 
     
  12. Shepard Prime

    Shepard Prime autobot

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    I don't mind there being a small band of Autobots in DotM. I just wish the movies gave the cybertronians as a whole a feeling of there being an entire race of Transformers spread out through the galaxy.
     
  13. Zhadow

    Zhadow Oh hi there

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    In short, more backstory.
     
  14. zark225

    zark225 The Day Fukr

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    It would have been awesome to have them in there, but it could have taken away from the other bots. Granted the twins would have died before other characters, like the Wreckers, came in, but still. Jolt really could have been used, but with his little to no screen time in ROTF, I don't mind too much that hes not in it.

    Plus, in that last of the 2 pics posted, did Megatron's head somehow topple over? I always thought that was a random piece of debris since I couldn't make out his face. But now I see the spine, fiery burn marks where he sliced his head, and the pointed chin facing upward. Must have happened between shots lol
     
  15. Wars

    Wars Regular At Swerve's™

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    Jolt more or less was a background character. He didn't speak, had one shout-out of his name and the only memorable thing he did was help to combine Optimus and Jetfire.

    The twins on the other hand, were removed because they were poorly received by critics in Revenge of the Fallen, and to put them into the movie could also have proved to be stupid move on Bay's part. For some critics, even if they had changed the twins' personality, their opinions wouldn't have changed.
     
  16. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    I wish they just bothered to make Jolt a charecter, he could have been interesting or make for a casuality in DOTM to make the Autobots suffer some loses aside from Ironhide and Que/Dino.
     
  17. Ash from Carolina

    Ash from Carolina Junior Smeghead

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    It seems like the films have had trouble with things like continuity even in the space of one film so I'm not sure if people are really expecting any sort of consistency to the continuity between films. Characters can just disappear in a film like Barricade did in the first movie so I don't think people were shocked that the Twins and Jolt were nowhere to be found in Dark of the Moon.

    I also think the reason we don't see more of the Autobots is that the production team doesn't see them so much as characters as they view them as something to carry the big action scenes so that cutting edge CGI can be mixed into all the explosions and destruction. The production team has gone out of their way to make Sam and the military the heroes to the point that you have to wonder what the Autobots are even needed for except for Prime to kill someone like the Fallen.
     
  18. jametron

    jametron Release the Kraken!!!!!!!

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    Wait, what? That's, like, the exact opposite of redundacy...
     
  19. Heavynova

    Heavynova Decepticon Tactician

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    Actually if you notice, the two pics are from opposite sides of the bridge. You can see in the first pic Sentinel on the ground to Optimus's left. In the second frame, Megatron is to the front left of Optimus, and Sentinel is behind, to the right. Optimus turned around to face the other end of the bridge, hence why everyone but Bumblebee and Ratchet were missing.
     
  20. Bumblebee765

    Bumblebee765 Wrecker

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    Sideswipe's there too. :wink: 
     

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