That last question makes no sense. You said that the disk is from the year 3500 but then claim that information would not be recorded on it until years after 3500. This would mean that the disk would be blank when they bring it back in time with them as according to your last question nothing has been recorded on it yet.

The disk already contained information about the past in the year 3500. That's the whole reason the Predacons stole the disk in the first place. It wasn't a blank disk, it was a historical record from their past.

Once they traveled into that past and changed the historical record as we see with Megatron changing the shape of a mountain, then they changed what would be recorded onto that disk in their future.

It does not have to be a predestination time loop for the disk to show the future of the Beast Wars. Actually if it was a predestination time loop then Megatron would not be able to change the shape of that mountain. The picture from the future would of shown the mountain top being blown off before Megatron did it because that would make it predestine to happen. The picture doesn't show the mountain top being missing until after Megatron destroys it. This is not how a predestined time loop works. This means the future can be changed.

Another thing to note is that in a predestined time loop, the historical record of the Beast Wars would have already existed before they went back in time. If the future can be changed, then the historical record wouldn't exist until after the Beast Wars started.

Now we're going to get into a bit of a confusing part. Dinobot questions if it shows a future that will be or may be. I think the mountain proves it's only a future that could happen. I think that the information on the disk changes like the mountain. It shows what might happen in the future of the Beast Wars but the Beast Warriors having access to that information could help them alter that future. It's not predestine unless the answer to Dinobots question is that it's the future that will be and nothing in the series suggests that the future is fixed. Nothing about any of my claims suggests that the future is fixed either.

Again no, he's not asking if it contains his future, he's asking if the future is fixed or not. There's no question about if it shows his own future, the question is about if he can change it.

No you got that backwards. The mountain only changed because of an event in the Beast Wars which proves there is a historical record of it. If there was no historical record of the Beast Wars then the mountain would not have changed in the recording.

Are you forgetting that Dinobot willingly joined Megatron back on Cybertron, helped him steal the Golden Disk in the first place, and knew that Megatron planned to change history with it?

If that was the case then why is he only just now talking about them? Why not make this speech in the first episode? He was originally with the Predacons, he was the one holding the Voyager disk the first time we ever saw it. He's obviously seen the information it contains when he was on the Darksyde. Granted at the time they thought they were on the wrong planet and he just casually threw the disk away. However by this point in the series the second moon is gone and they know they're on Earth now. So if not the first episode then surely he would said something about this at the start of season 2. Why is he only just now talking about this? He's never cared about it before so what changed in this episode to suddenly make him so concerned about the future?

It would make sense for him to be concerned if he saw something that personally effected him in a negative way. But other than that, you gotta remember, he signed onto Megatron's crew to change history so that the Decepticons would win the great war. He's been with the Maximals for a while at this point and it just doesn't make sense why now he's suddenly changed his mind, why now he's suddenly asking questions, so if he hasn't seen his own death then what is it that you think suddenly changed to make him finally start questioning this plan he was once a part of.

Um... no. We're all going to die some day sure but we're organic flesh bags with limited life spans. Dinobot is a gawd damn robot who could potentially live forever. It could be a metaphor if a normal human character was the one saying it. However this is Dinobot we're talking about, there's no guarantee that he's ever going to die cause as I keep saying we have never in the history of Transformers ever seen one die from old age. Every character we've ever seen die was killed in battle. There is no death by natural causes, there is no death by old age. Without that certainty that you will die some day the metaphor doesn't make any sense. You have to have a limited natural life span in order for that metaphor to work.

The only way that Dinobot could know he's going to die is that he's seen his future. He's potentially immortal so there is no guarantee he will ever die unless he literally knows he is moments from death. It doesn't work as a metaphor for a robot.

Let me make another comparison for you. Vampires can be killed by external forces, steak through the heart, sun light, ect. But they don't get any older, there is no natural cause of death. They're practically immortal.

Now lets make this a sci-fi fantasy story and add time travel into the mix. So lets say a descendant of Van Helsing, we'll call him Van 2, he time travels into the past back when Dracula was still alive. He brings with him a journal written by the first Van Helsing which tells of all his adventures including how he killed Dracula. While in the past Van2 meets Van1. The journal gets lost some how and is discovered by Dracula. Then Dracula starts making a similar speech to Dinobots. Now would you say he hasn't actually read the journal? How would he know it contains information about the future if he hasn't read it? Now would you say that his speech is a metaphor? Why would a vampire say anything about being moments from death as a metaphor? Dracula is immortal, he can't die unless someone kills him. He's got a book which we know contains writings from the future written by Van1 telling how he killed Dracula. It only makes sense that Dracula would literally be speaking of his own impending death when he knows Van Helsing is going to kill him soon.

Dinobot is similarly immortal unless killed by an outside source. There is no chance of dying from old age. We also know that Dinobot does indeed die moments after making that speech. He literally died moments after talking about being moments away from death. How is that a metaphor? Are you saying it's just coincidence that he just happen to die moments after talking about being moments from death? He's a robot with a potentially limitless life span and actual information of future events that haven't happened yet, there's no way it's coincidence that he just happen to die in that episode. That's not a metaphor, that literally happened.

No. Just because a book says this is when and how you will die does not make it predestined to happen that way. The only thing that confirm it is your actual death, if you die when and how the way the book describes then it's predestined. However if the book only shows one way the future could unfold then you can change that future. And Dinobot says this in this speech. I don't know why you keep thinking that if you read something in a book then it's automatically predestined to happen. This isn't Doctor Who, it's Beast Wars.

Yeah there are other science fictions that are written the way you describe. Like I mentioned before, in Angels Take Manhattan, once you read it then it has to happen. That's how it works in Doctor Who. However Beast Wars asks the question of if is predestine or not, it doesn't blatantly tell you that it is. There's nothing in this series which states that once you read something then it has to happen.

Not every time travel story is the same. Granted I've brought up other fictions in conversations before but I try to talk about ones with similar rules to the topic we're discussing. Back to the Future for example I think is similar to Beast Wars because they both use pictures from the future that change as the future is changed. Angels Take Manhattan however is an entirely different set of rules. I usually try to exclude comparisons like that unless it's relevant to the conversation.

Um... they were in the very next quote you already responded to.

You said this in response to the questions you just asked me to repeat in the previous quote. And no I'm not confusing you with someone else. You and Sparky have said a lot of the same things, you seem to be in agreement with each other about a lot of things. So I'm asking you both a lot of the same questions to clarify some things. I'm not confusing you with Sparky Prime, I'm just asking you both the same questions because you both have a tendency to agree with each other a lot of the time. Though when I talk to you I feel like we're actually having a real conversation. I think you're more likely to actually answer questions where as some times with Sparky I feel like I'm speaking to a brick wall. I don't know if that's intentional or not but trust me even though you're agreeing with each other I can tell I'm talking to two different people. Your attitudes are totally different.

What I'm trying to get at is Dinobot's line saying his demises is but moments from confirmation. He's asking a question and then says his death would confirm an answer. The only way that works is if the question is about his own death. If his death is not on the Golden Disks as you suggest then his demise would not confirm anything within them.

The idea of a book about your life is an analogy for that. I'm reading the book. If I specifically say something about my own death being confirmation of future events, that makes no sense because my death wouldn't be in your book. My dying can only confirm one thing, my death. So the only way my death could be confirmation of anything is if your book some how had information about it. Otherwise it doesn't work and would make no sense for me to say anything about confirmation.

Also, if the speech is a metaphor then it wouldn't make sense to say anything about confirmation because you can't confirm a metaphor. You can only confirm hard facts.

Basically what I'm asking is this. If the Disks do not contain information about Dinobot's death, then what does Dinobot mean when he says his demise is but moments from confirmation? What is being confirmed by his death?

The only thing his death can confirm is his death which means the disk must contain information about his death which he must have seen otherwise that line makes no sense. His death can't confirm anything else. As a metaphor it makes no sense to even use the word confirmation. So what do you think it means? I'm asking you to explain that to me.

Well you didn't make it clear that you were talking about a metaphor. Though I think you misunderstood the metaphor.

As a metaphor, technically our lives are all short lived in the grand scheme of things. There's a web site which shows our time line and you can zoom out to see how it compares with larger events and really shows how small we all are. In other words, you're right, a moment is a matter of perspective. However again, we're talking about a robot with a potentially limitless life span. Someone who should have no concept of this metaphor because death for him is not guaranteed as it is for us.

For him to talk about death in this way it must be literal because in any other sense there's no way he could know he's moments from death. The metaphor idea makes sense from a human perspective with a limited human life span but not for an immortal robot who could potentially live forever.

There's also the fact that he uses the word confirmation. That word suggests we're speaking literally not figuratively. You can't confirm anything in a metaphor. Confirmation requires facts. It is a fact that humans have limited life spans. It is a fact that we will all die.... eventually. However it is not a fact that we are all moments away from death. As you said yourself, moments is a matter of perspective. So how can your death confirm anything in a metaphor? What is it confirming? And how does this apply to a robot?

Nope. As I said before, Dinobot was originally a Predacon. He helped Megatron to steal the Voyager disk in the first place. He's known about Megatron's plan since the very first episode. So why is he only just now suddenly giving a crap about something he's known about for the past 35 episodes? There has to be some reason he's suddenly so worried in this episode when he wasn't before this.

1. Well he's not a Predacon anymore so maybe he finally decided to go against Megatron. Except he's been with the Maximals for a long time now and it makes no sense for him to only just now be talking about this.

2. They thought they were on the wrong planet so it wasn't relevant at the time. Except that the main reason they thought they were on the wrong planet was because of the second moon which wasn't actually a moon and no longer exists at this point in the series. The second moon was destroyed nine episodes ago so again why is Dinobot only just now suddenly worried about the future?

3. Dinobot found information about his own death which understandably would cause him to suddenly start to worry about the future. Especially when he knows that his death is going to be mere moments away.

If 1, 2, and 3 are all wrong then what else is there? What is the motivator that caused Dinobot to suddenly question the future when he never has before this? It's not switching factions, it's not discovering that they are in fact on Earth, and according to you, it's not discovering that he's going to die. So then what is it. Why is he talking about this now and not in some previous episode? What's changed?

I still think 3 is the answer because I don't see how there even is a fourth option. But maybe I missed something, or forgot something and if so then perhaps you could explain it.

It does when it's coming from someone with a potentially limitless life span.

It's ironic that you say what moment means is a matter of perspective and yet you fail to view things from the perspective of the character saying it. You insist on inserting your mortal perspective on an immortal character's dialog. You have to view it from his perspective not yours.

Technically yes. Though we're talking about an immortal saying that he's moments from death. The metaphor only works if the character is a mortal. As a mortal you know you're going to die some day. That's the difference between a mortal and an immortal. Immortals can not die.

That's not entirely true, because they can be killed. Immortals don't really exist except in fiction. And typically they can be killed because they usually tend to be villains like Vampires. They can't make them indestructible for real because then the story wouldn't be interesting. There has to be some weakness to the villain some small chance for the hero to prevail otherwise the story would be too predictable and the audience would lose interest.

Anyway, the point is that there is no known natural cause of death. As long as they aren't killed they could live forever. There is no assurred death for them like there is for us. Thus you are insisting on putting your own personal perspective over the dialog of Dinobot makes no sense. You need to understand the perspective of the character who's talking not insert your own in place of theirs. For someone like Dinobot to say he's moments from death, that literally means he's moments from death. It can't be a metaphor because unless he's actually seen when and how he will die there's no possible way he could know that. The only way he can die is if he's killed.

That would be like a human saying quite specifically that someone is going to kill them. That doesn't say murder, it could be by accident, but still when you say you're going to be killed it rules out the possibility that you're going to die of any natural causes.

Dinobot just being a robot already rules out that possibility. He would have no concept of such a metaphor because the only way he can die is if he's specifically killed. To know you're going to be killed and not die of some other cause requires some knowledge of the future as it's more specific than just the general sense of mortality. A sense which Dinobot as an immortal would not even have.

And again I'm going to ask you the same questions I just asked Primeultra.

You say the speech is not about his death. So then why does he say his death is moments from confirmation? What would his death be confirming if not that he's going to die? It can't confirm anything else other than weather or not he dies so that line makes no sense.

He's known about the Voyager Disk since the very first episode so why is he only just now concerned about it? He's never given a shit about it before this episode so what's changed to make him suddenly care now? If it's not about his death then what is it? It can't be just a general thing because he's always known about it and never shown any sign of caring before this episode. So there must be some other motivator for him to make this speech, something that happens in this episode that wasn't known before. Like perhaps that he's going to die in this episode. You claim that's not the reason for the speech, so then what is?

Nothing he says suggests he's thinking of suicide. Everything he says suggests his death is recorded on the disks because his entire speech is all about the future as recorded on the Golden Disks and his death which we know happens later on in the same episode.

Again, he's known since the very first episode about the future being recorded on the Voyager disk, he helped Megatron to steal it in the first place. He's never cared about the future before this episode, so why would he suddenly become suicidal over something he's known about since day one? That makes no sense. Unless he found something that is specific to his own future Dinobot would not give a shit. There's no reason for him to suddenly care about this when he's spent the last 26 episodes not giving a shit. There has to be some reason, something other than just the general future that caused Dinobot to change his mind, he wouldn't suddenly start caring for no reason. There has to be some reason that caused the change in this episode. If it's not discovering information about his own death then what is it?

Nope, I'm making assumptions that ARE supported by the series. If they weren't supported then that would mean the Beast Wars characters aren't from the future. The Golden Disks are not from the future. And Dinobot did not die in Code of Hero. Except all that stuff is true which means the series does support it.

Also I'm not ignoring the reasons he gives for his death, in order to ignore something he would actually have to say it. He never gives a reason, nothing in the speech says how he's going to die, only that he's going to die. You're making assumptions that aren't supported by the series and you are indeed twisting his speech to fit one sentence which you've taken out of context.

I didn't say time travel, I said time. Things that happen in the past are known about in the future because they have already happened.

If something happens in the past it does mean they automatically know about it in the future because there is always going to be some evidence of it that people in the future can find.

You keep saying there is no record of the Beast Wars in the future but that is impossible. There must be some kind of record about the Beast Wars. It is likely incomplete or not accurate but it must exist. And in fact the picture of the mountain changing is proof that there is a record of the Beast Wars. If there was no record as you suggest than that picture of the mountain Megatron altered does not exist as that picture is in itself a partial incomplete record of the Beast Wars. There's nothing in the picture suggesting it was altered by Megatron and people of the future likely wouldn't know it was altered at all but it's still connected to an event that happened in the Beast Wars. By itself it isn't much, but if other things were discovered like Inferno's head or Quickstrike's parts, it could be used to piece together some information about the Beast Wars.

Just like in real life, archeologists dig up fossils and are able to learn about things that happened in prehistoric times. These are fossil records of history in the past which we here in the present/future are aware of.

I do not understand why you keep insisting that people in the future would have no record of things from their past when NOTHING supports that. The series doesn't support it, real life doesn't support it. So why do you keep insisting that the past just magically turns into dust leaving no evidence behind?

Not all recorded history is written as it happens. Most of it was written after the fact by people who weren't actually there making their best guesses as to how things were based on the evidence that was left behind.

Also, again, that fossil I showed you earlier is BILLIONS of years old and has survived just fine. There is no reason to believe that any evidence left behind for millions of years wouldn't have survived. That means there are fossils far more fragile and far older than anything from the Beast Wars would be. If crap like that can survive intact than there should be no problem finding something like Inferno's head intact after millions of years.

Inferno's head, along with everything else from the Beast Wars, isn't biodegradable. That means they could survive much longer intact than any organic matter. They'll rust for sure but they would survive mostly intact well after the Great War ended. They're not going to just magically turn to dust over night. Decomposition takes time, a lot of time, and someone would of discovered evidence of the Beast Wars long before they could turn to dust.

1. Why did humans create the Voyager space probe and the Golden Disk? The real life answer, in the hopes that intelligent life some where else in the universe might some day discover it. However in story, technically humans already know about life on other planets. So why would they send up a Voyager space probe and the Golden Disk? Sure it might be based on something that actually exists but things that actually exist are often used for different purposes in fiction. For example the Hover Damn was built for the sure purpose of hiding the AllSpark cube and Megatron. Of course the Hover Damn is a real place that actually exists but the part about the AllSpark and Megatron is total fiction. Basically what I'm getting at is that humans in the Transformers universe likely have different motivations and possibly a different message on the Golden Disk than it's real life counterpart. We don't actually know what is or isn't on that disk.

2. How do you know that G1 Megatron wouldn't have known anything about Dinobot? We only see part of his message. The Disk was broken and only a fraction of it's contents were ever shown. It's impossible to tell what else might of been on there.

3. There's also the Vok disk which also apparently has some future info on it. We never actually see what it contains. Maybe Dinobot's death is on that disk and his speech has little to do with the Voyager disk. As I mentioned before, he's looking at the Vok disk more frequently and for longer periods than he does the Voyager, the Vok disk is shown more clearly to the audience while the Voyager disk looks blank for most of the scene. This would suggest that the Vok disk contains the information which suddenly made Dinobot so concerned and not the Voyager.

What Maximals are you referring to here? The Maximals we see in the show on Prehistoric Earth or the Maximals back on Cybertron that we don't see?

If it's the first one, then you're right, they couldn't have any record of the Beast Wars... before they go back in time. Unless they're in a causality loop or a predestine time line but I don't think they are.

However if you're talking about the Maximals on future Cybertron then you're wrong. As soon as they went into the past changing the future, then the future's history would then be the future of this altered time line not the future they traveled back from.

Here I'm going to make a visual aid to help explain this. I've attached two files to this post. Alternate Time Lines shows two separate time lines, and the path the Maximals and Predacons traveled.

Now considering we see the mountain photo change immediately after Megatron shoots the top off that means we're talking about an alternate time line. That would mean that the top time line, which is the one the Maximals and Predacons originally came from, it no longer exists. That's why Beast Machines is placed on the bottom time line, that's the future they eventually return to, a future which has been altered. You'll also notice that the Beast Wars is not present on the top erased time line since it doesn't happen there. Generation One happens in both time lines, that's the Great War, that they keep referring to in both Beast Wars and Beast Machines so I put that on both time lines.

The second image shows the time line as a causality loop, one which is predestined to happen and can not be altered. Now if time travel were to work this way then the Maximals would be aware of the Beast Wars before they even left the future because it would always have to happen. That's the whole point of a causality loop. Again, I don't think this is what we're dealing with.

I did want to represent both because this is exactly the question which Dinobot is asking. If it's the future which will be (causality loop) or the future that may be (Alternate time line). If it's a causality loop then fate is predestine to happen no matter what. However if it's an alternate time line then the future is still being written and what ever he sees is only one of infinite possibilities until it actually happens. He says this in his speech as well.

We see things from the future change during the course of Beast Wars. This means alternate time line. The original time line is being rewritten during the course of the show. The top line stopped existing as soon as the Beast Wars started. When they look at information about the Future they no longer see it how it was in the original time line, they see the future of the current time line, the bottom not the top. The top doesn't exist anymore. The fact that they're still in the Beast Wars doesn't mean anything except that the future is only a possibility not a fact. It doesn't become solid fact until after it happens, till then because they're from the future and have access to information about the future, then they can change how that future unfolds.

Every change they make is a record of the Beast Wars. Megatron shooting the top of a mountain is a record of the Beast Wars. We literally see them changing history and yet you still insist that there is no record of it. What the hell do you call a photo of a mountain that Megatron altered if not a record of an event that happened during the Beast Wars?

In the top original time line, the mountain was not destroyed by Megatron.

In the bottom altered time line, the mountain was destroyed by Megatron.

This means there is a record of it, we're shown this in the series. You can see the mountain from both time lines. Why do you insist it doesn't exist?

Actually just went to find that scene and I did misremember one thing which oddly no one has corrected me on. It wasn't Megatron who destroyed the mountain top, it was Rampage. Of course you couldn't of corrected me this time because I'm still writing this post but I've mentioned it before and no one said anything. So consider this me correcting myself... Megatron did order the destruction of the mountain but it was actually Rampage who fired the shot. Anyway here's the scene.

After Rampage destroys the mountain in the past, the photo from the future flickers and changes. That is by definition a record of the Beast Wars. If there was no record either the photo wouldn't have changed or it wouldn't exist at all.

Yes and no. You're talking about two completely different things here and getting them mixed up as one thing.

I can and basically have to make up an explanation as to who recorded Dinobot's death on the disks because the show never tells us that. However it doesn't matter who did it. That's not relevant to the conversation. Anyone could have done it for any number of reasons but that's not important right now.

You said his speech wouldn't make sense because you didn't know who recorded the message but that information has nothing to do with his speech. The debate is about weather or not the golden disks contain future knowledge of his death not about who recorded it.

To put this another way, do you need to know who the author of a book is to understand the contents of the book? No you don't. A lot of books are published with anonymous authors and it doesn't change anyone's understanding just because they don't know who the author is. There's a lot of reasons for this, some times a publisher just thinks Mark Twain sounds better than Samual Clemens, some times the author is a woman using a man's name because no one would ever read it let alone publish it if they knew a woman wrote it. (I don't think this happens anymore as a lot of women writers are well known and respected these days but I'm talking about in the past it was quite common for women authors to use false identities and even photos of someone else as the author.) And some times the Author just wants the privacy of his fans just not knowing who the hell they are. And I'm pretty sure religious books have nothing to do God but the real author left their name off because they wanted people to believe that God was the author.

Anyway, I never claimed that my theories on the author were supported by anything. We're not debating. We're only debating the contents of the message not the author. And the contents of the message are supported by the series. Everything support that Dinobot knew he was going to die. The fact that he talks about dying, the fact that he talks about a future message, the fact that he actually does die.

Nothing your suggesting is supported in any way by the events in the show. According to you his speech is just a metaphor, but then what would his death confirm and how is a confirmed death in any way metaphorical? How is him actually literally dying moments later in any way metaphorical? That is not a metaphor. it literally actually happens.

That depends on a number of different factors.

1. Exactly what scrap of metal are we talking about? In terms of a computer, if it's a piece of the casing then no there would be no indication of advanced alien technology. However if it's a piece of the mother board then yes, obviously that's technology.

2. Exactly how big the scrap of metal is. You'd need a pretty large chunk to be able to tell there was an intelligent design. Remember metal working didn't exist yet and raw materials are pretty rough. So finding a scrap of an alien ship and seeing that it's already been processed millions of years of before we had developed the technology to do that would also be evidence.

3. Exactly what kind of metal are we talking about. Remember gold, silver, bronze, (just to name a few) they're all metals. There isn't just one kind of metal. And the Transformers are made of a material not found on Earth. This would actually negate everything else because when the scrap of metal doesn't match anything else on Earth but does match the Autobots and Decepticons that would be a dead give away that they originated from the same planet.

Also, who said anything about having to find a something they may of recorded during that time. Again, you seem to have this idea that all historical records have to be written from a first hand experience. They don't. Dinosaurs didn't write a record of their history. No one did, there are no first hand written records of that time. We know about them because of fossils. There is evidence of their existence. Not all historical records are first hand encounters. Most of history is written after the fact.

There is so much wrong with what you just said here I'm going to have to break this paragraph down.

"A fossil is not organic."

Wrong. If it wasn't organic that would mean that they're man made. You basically just claimed that fossils are fake, created by us. A claim I've heard made by religious people who don't want to believe that Dinosaurs existed because they're not mentioned in the Bible. Organic doesn't just means things that are or were once alive. Anything naturally occurring that isn't man made is organic.

"A fossil is what happens when groundwater and minerals while under the right conditions replaces the bone/shell of an organism, essentially destroying the original and transforms it into rock. The shape is still there, but the original organic creature is long gone."

Wrong. First of all a fossil is bone. Bone takes longer to break down than flesh which is why nearly everything that has ever lived has left behind skeletal remains which no longer contain any flesh. Secondly, I think what you're describing is an imprint not a fossil. Except that process doesn't "transform it into rock" it embeds the shape into a rock. Also the shape would be like a negative image, like a mold of whatever was embedded into it. The way you describe it is freaking magic. Things don't just turn into rocks. The rocks were already there.

"Let's look at the Titanic as an example of a deteriorating ship... It's been sitting at the bottom of the ocean for about 105 years now and it's already falling apart."

What do you mean already falling apart? It fell apart, that's why it sank. You mean it's falling apart more? No it's not, it's been in mostly the same condition since it hit the bottom of the ocean. It's rusted because of the salt water and lack of maintenance but it's still there.

"Some scientists estimate the wreck will be destroyed in just another 20 years"

LOL Really, that soon huh. It's already been sitting down there rusting for 105 years without much change but it's going to be dust in the next 20? Sorry dude that's magic not science. I don't know who your source is but I can already tell you they're not legitimate scientists. That sounds like cartoon physics. There's absolutely no sign that the Titanic is just going to vanish in a puff of smoke in the next 20 years.

"due to metal eating organisms speeding up its deterioration."

There's no such thing as metal eating organisms. You're thinking of Strapletts, they don't actually exist.

"Now imagine what would be left of it after millions of years."

You are forgetting something. The Titanic is under the ocean. Far different conditions than anything from Beast Wars.... except maybe Depth Charge and Rampage who actually did die under water. The pressure and salt from the water would be far more damaging than being out in the open air. Plus the stronger alien metal makes them a bit more resistant to damage. Otherwise the Autobots and Decepticons would never have survived long enough to wake up millions of year later.

"There's nothing magical about it, the elements of the planet will eventually break things down given enough time."

This is correct. However what you're suggesting is that everything instantly breaks down for no gawd damn reason which is magic. I know the elements of the planet will eventually break things down given enough time, I've said that myself. I know decomposition is a thing. That's not what I claimed was magic.

What I'm claiming is magic is how quickly you seem to think everything turns to dust. Given your Titanic example, according to you 125 years is all it takes for any matter to turn into dust and no longer exist. You seem to think this true regardless of the conditions of what or where that thing might be. Just after 125 years it's dust. You seem to believe this in spite of the fact that NOTHING supports it. There are tons of examples of things that have survived billions of years without turning to dust so the idea of 125 years being a hard cut off for everything to become dust is laughable and totally ridiculous. Even within the show, the Autobots and Decepticons survived for millions of years without even rusting and you expect me to believe that the Maximals and Predacons would be dust but not the Autobots and Decepticons. That is magic. How do the elements effect the Beast Wars cast and not the G1 cast? By your logic they should all be dust. The Autobots and Decepticons might have a little extra protection because they're inside the Ark and not actually exposed to the elements but given how quickly you seem to think everything deteriorates that wouldn't make enough of a difference to allow them to survive into 1984. At best it would give them 250 years. Yet the Ark some how manages to not even rust in the millions of years it was on Earth. It's amazing how the Ark managed to avoid becoming dust and still have power millions of years later but the Beast Wars stuff has magically disappeared despite nothing else on the freaking planet having ever deteriorated that quickly. That is freaking magic. It would take trillions of years for decomposition to turn them into dust not a tiny 125 years. That would barely do anything at all. Realistically they should rust, so should have the Ark, but that's about it. That is not enough time for metal to become dust. You likely wouldn't have much flesh left if any at all but the human body doesn't even break down that quickly.

I did a quick search for oldest human remains... got a lot of different answers but the oldest one seems to be 160,000 years old. And you expect me to believe that metal can be broken down in a mere 125 years? Chak and Una's bodies will turn to dust before Inferno and Quickstrike's. Chak and Una are the protohumans which Cheetor tries to tutor in season 3. Their soft fleshy bodies are more prone to faster decomposition than a metal Cybertronian body. They're not just going to magically go poof dust over night. Not literally over night, but considering how long that would actually take to happen 125 years might as well be over night. That's barely any time at all. I use to work in a building made of wood, which burned down, was rebuilt from salvaged materials and concrete, which is over 200 years old and hasn't turned to dust yet. It's freaking wood, BURNT wood and it still exists after 200 years. You expect me to believe that can survive twice as long as metal? By all means the Fallen House should be dust before anything from the Beast Wars.

That's like claiming that the metal screws holding our toys together will deteriorate before the soft rubber plastic parts. It's actually the other way away. Soft parts would turn to dust first. Metals are the toughest materials on the freaking planet. They don't deteriorate quickly at all. In any structure, the metal would outlast everything else. Even when it's old and rusted it's still far too strong to break down into dust. Hell you know the train from Back to the Future 3... that's over 200 years old. That train still runs too... it's been maintained and had a few parts replaced over the years but still nothing has turned to dust. If you're wandering how I know so much about the train from Back to the Future 3... It's about a 15 minute walk from my house. Also that park is literally right next to where I went to elementary school (K-8) so I literally went past that train yard every day for nine years.

A link to that scene would be nice. I've given you lots of links to the scenes I'm talking about and all you give me is rewatch the episode? Since I'm going to be home for Thanksgiving for a while I might just use this time to rewatch the entire series. Though I have other plans as well... like finishing Quantum Leap... Another series I've been rewatching recently.

No that would be you.

He mentions his death three times in the speech yet you claim it has nothing to do with his death. This means you're ignoring context.

He never gives a reason for his death in the speech. How can I ignore something that is never spoken?

Him mentioning death and then you claiming he never mentions death is ignoring context.

I know this, that's why I asked why Dinobot is only JUST NOW concerned about it? Why would he help Megatron to steal the disk in the first place if the idea of altering the future was so bad to him that it made him contemplate suicide. That makes no sense. If he didn't care back then then why does it suddenly matter now?

As to your question, you're asking me why he agreed to go on a mission 26 episodes before he knew about his death? Simple he didn't know about it yet. Why would the disk already contain information from an alternate time line that doesn't exist yet? That would require a predestined time loop. This is an alternate time line.

Your asking, why Dinobot left Cybertron in the first place? Because in that time line the Beast Wars never happened. See the attached files again. The Thieft of the Golden Disk marks when the Predacons stole the disk and left Cybertron to go to Prehistoric Earth. At that point the Beast Wars never happened so Dinobot couldn't know about it.

It's only after they travel backwards in time that the Beast Wars came into existence. At that point the information contained on the disk was constantly changing to fit within this new time line. Dinobot wouldn't know about his death until that information became available in the altered history.

It's the same reason why the mountain top wasn't already missing before Rampage destroyed it. Megatron was looking at a possible future not a fixed future.

So many questions for such a short comment.

1. What reason do you have to believe that Dinobot doesn't know what's on the Vok disk?

2. Why would he generalize both disks as having information about the future if only one disk actually does?

3. If the Voyager Disk is the only one he knows for sure has information about the future then why does he spend the majority of the speech looking at the Vok disk?

4. How does he know for sure that either disk has any information about the future if he has never seen the information for himself? He might of been told that by Megatron but without actually seeing it there's no way he can trust what Megatron says without proof.

5. If the idea of changing the future bothers him this much why would he help Megatron to steal the disk in the first place?

6. If he originally went along with Megatron's plan knowing he's was going to try to change the future and has gone the past 26 episodes not even giving a flying Rattrap's aft about it why is he suddenly just now so concerned about something that he has known about since before the Beast Wars even started? What has changed?

That's majorly over simplifying it but yeah. Though to be fair that's basically what everyone does when they interpret Shakespeare into modern English.

I see no evidence that's how the show writers intended it to be interpreted.

As I told them. He's known about the Voyager Disk the entire series so why did he help Megatron in the first place? He only just now 26 episodes later starts to care about it. Why? What changed in this episode to make him suddenly start questioning it when he never did before?

He never says he's going to kill himself, just that he's going to die. And he actually does die moments later in the same episode. The writers obviously knew that they were going to kill off Dinobot. And it's only in this episode that he talks about dying. So what has changed to make Dinobot suddenly start worrying about the future?

The only possibility, the only thing that could change, the only thing that makes sense is that he found information regarding his own future. This is confirmed a few moments later just as he said it would be in the speech when he dies. Dinobot knew he was going to die. This is what the writers intended.

You're all so convinced that your interpretations are correct and yet not a single one of you can answer that question. What has changed, why is Dinobot suddenly worried about the future in the 26th episode of the show when he's never cared before? He's known about the Voyage disk since before the Beast Wars even started so why is he only just now talking about it? I seem to be the only one who has an answer. Unless you can answer that question, his speech makes no sense.

This is another thing that makes no sense. If Dinobot has not checked the Golden Disks, then why is he making the speech in the first place? There has to be some reason why he's giving this speech at this particular point in the series. I believe that reason is because he looked at the Golden Disks and saw his own death.

If it's just a general speech about the future in general not his specifically, then he never would have helped Megatron to steal the disk in the first place. This speech would of been to Megatron back on Cybertron before they even stole the disk. He would of given it as his reasons for not wanting to get involved with Megatron's scheme. But he did go along with it so it makes no sense to suddenly care now but not then.

He would of had to see something specific on the disks to make him change his mind like he did. So why do you think he's never looked at them? He has to of looked at them at some point in order for this speech to even happen so late in the series.

Again, WHAT CHANGED? If it's not seeing his own death then what is it? What has changed? Why is he giving this speech in the first place? Why now, why not the very first episode, or the beginning of season 2, why is it here in this random episode for seemingly no reason? There has to be a reason why now? He's known about the Voyager disk since day one so it can't be so generalized, it must be something specific that happens in this episode. Something that doesn't apply to Dinobot in previous episodes. Something like seeing information that wasn't there before or that he didn't know about until this episode. Something like you literally only have a few minutes left to live. You know something that he talks about in the speech. If that's not the reason then what is?

Given your user name and avatar this thread is practically made for you. I'm surprised you didn't post it first. lol

BLASPHEMY! HOW DARE YOU SPEAK THE NAME OF THE PLAY THAT SHALL NOT BE SPOKEN OF! even though we're typing not actually speaking but I'm going to pretend like we're speaking anyway. OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

It's the Scottish Play (How it's generally refereed to in real life), Macers (Another Slings and Arrows reference. Season 1 is Hamlet, season 2 is Macers, not sure about season 3 because I can't find it online and the series is only really broadcast in Canada so I have no other way of watching it.), or Macbe- finish that word and we are going to have problems. (Q2Q Button Sets) But you never actually say it.

Well this a bit different... but at least now I can say something new that I haven't already said to three other people. You agree with them that the Golden Disks don't have any information about Dinobot's death. However you go on to say the he did in fact know he was going to die. How did he know that if not from the disks? How were the disks relevant to that revelation if they weren't the source of that information?

I don't really have an argument here. I just wanted to say, I think this is the one thing we all agree on. And also I don't think any of us could of worded it any better than you just did.

 

No no no you misunderstood me maybe I didn’t make your scenario clear let me try to make this more simple just using you and me as an example

Let’s say you and I time travel tomorrow into the prehistoric past with two flash drives containing all of recorded earth history open till tomorrow morning 6 AM.

We then spent three years in the past , recording our events , at the end i die a heroic death and you return to our correct time frame and discover three years time has passed here as well and it is the year 2020.So you do survivor now record the events that took place in the past into the original flash drives

Those flash drives should not have the information containing my drather until you return home right?

. But the recorded information doesn’t seem to change until the historical event changes so I don’t see how the disc would contain information about Dinobot’s death until he actually died

As you said we first see the mountain top unaltered on the disk, megatron then blows the top off and then the image in the disk is altered to match

I’m sorry but you really haven’t established that and based on the wording used I completely disagree

Not to mention that like I said above It doesn’t make sense that the disc would have the information about his death yet

The recording changed because they made a change in history in the beast wars

So how would the recording contain information about Dinobot and his death before the event happened in history?

but there’s no indication he always knew what was on them exactly

And forgive me for jumping ahead and losing the rest of the quotes but I’m doing this on the telephone and it’s hard to do the set up

I don’t believe I’m the one feeling to see things from the perspective of the character it may be true that Transformers or potential he a mortal, but Dinobot was a warrior to the end and fully aware of what it means to live by the sword and fight

He would’ve always known and fully excepted that one day he was gonna die and most likely in a battle so the concept of moments being fleeting is something he would’ve been fully aware of

And one can certainly find confirmation in a metaphor, especially if the metaphor is extremely on point

There’s a metaphor used in the Star Trek film that’s also from hamlet it was used in a toast at a dinner between Klingons on the Federation it was to the undiscovered country.

The confirmation in that is found in the fact that they were speaking about the future being very similar to an uncharted land

 

Dinobot didn't believe he was actually on Earth up to that point. In the very first episode, he berated Megatron for bringing the Predacons to the wrong planet. Even Megatron couldn't be completely sure, as the Darksyde's computer reported that course settings were accurate, but the readings were inconsistent with those expected for their intended destination.

The turning point was the destruction of the Planet Buster, which left only one moon in the sky. Dinobot accepted it as confirmation that he was, indeed, on prehistoric Earth.

 

You actually just made it more complicated... or maybe it's because I'm getting tired and need sleep, not really sure which.

OK I'm with you so far.

And now you've lost me.

The flash drives already contained a history up till 6 am tomorrow morning. We wouldn't need to record our events onto the flash drives as the moment we arrive in the past the flash drives would already contain a new historical record from the new time line that we've just created.

It would be impossible to return to our correct time frame because it no longer exists. (Though as I've mentioned in another thread I think it would exist in another universe but if that were the case then our flash drives would never change to reflect the new history we're creating since they came from our universe not this one.)

Why would I record something onto the flash drive in 2020 that should already be on the flash drive? If they contain everything that happens on Earth up till 6 am tomorrow morning than whatever we do in the past would already exist on the flash drives because everything we will do has already happened before 6 am tomorrow.

Wrong. The flash drives were created in 2017 with information from the past. If we travel to the past then that information changes. If the flash drives won't even exist till I get to 2020 then how do we already have them in 2017?

It's showing a possible future. So it could show an event before it happens. However knowing the future can change it, especially when you're intention is to change it. The whole point of blowing up the mountain was to test if the future could be changed. This would be difficult to do if it showed the mountain top being missing before Rampage destroys it (Predestine time loop) or if the mountain some how still had a top after it was destroyed (Alternate universe.)

Their being in the past has already changed the future. That doesn't mean that the mountain is destined to be destroyed until Megatron actually decides to destroy it.

However there are a number of different ways Dinobot could potentially die. It only seems capable of showing one possible future at a time. It's not fixed until after it happens.

What I mean by this is lets say you know you're going to get shot at the bank when you go to cash your next pay check. The place is going to be robbed and you're suppose to get shot during that robbery.

This is only one possible future. If you were to call the cops and report that you have reason to believe the bank is going to be robbed at that time it could change the future so you don't have to die. Or could just change the circumstances of your death so now instead of being shot inside the bank, you're hit by the robber's car outside the bank as they attempt to evade the police.

This is another possible future. You could also just simply not go to the bank that day, if you're not there then you can't be killed.

The problem is that you can't know how any decision you make effects the outcome until after it's actually happened. No matter what you choose to do, you won't know if you're stuck in a causality loop where every decision you make will ultimately result in the future you witnessed or if you can change the future.

Like Dinobot says the possibilities are infinite and yet still limited. Because the event in question is your own death, if you fail to change that event, you don't have another chance to go back in time again. You only have one chance to change that future. If it were anything else, if you screw up you could potentially just keep going back over and over again until you get it right but if you're trying to change the circumstances of you own death, if you fail, you can still die.

Actually it was Rampage. I know I said Megatron before but after rewatching that scene I realized it was Rampage who destroyed the mountain top under Megatron's orders not Megatron himself.

Yes it does. What doesn't make sense is why you think the recording WOULDN'T be there.

Let me give you a different situation to explain this.

You are in the year 1986. Your flash drive shows you information recorded in 2017. Given that the flash drive was recorded 31 years in the future why would you have to experience something in the past before that information can exist? The flash drive isn't being recorded in 1986 as the events happen, it was recorded in 2017 so the information would already exist before it happens to you in the past. It's before for you because you're in the past as it's happen but it's after for the author of the flash drive because from their perspective everything has already happened.

Going to explain the alternate time line and causality loop thing again...

In a causality loop, the information would already exist before you went back in time. It would already be written before you travel back to 1986. And there's no way to change it because it's a causality loop, trying to change it ends up being what causes it to happen in the first place.

It's only in an alternate time line that the photo of the mountain can change. This would mean that simply having knowledge of the future can further change the future. Basically not only did they create a new time line by traveling back in time, but also by making decisions that would further alter that new history. Dinobots death is only a possible future, one which he would of been heading toward when he looked at the information. However having that knowledge could further alter the time line depending on the decisions he makes from that point on. It's not fixed until it actually happens, it's still in flux, but you could still see information on your future if you continue on your current path unchanged. The future wouldn't just not exist at all, it's in flux but it's still there.

Right, I literally just said that.

Because the recording is from the future AFTER the event has already happened.

He's the one holding the Voyager disk the first time we ever saw it. The whole reason he left the Predacons was because he thought Megatron lead them to the wrong planet. It's pretty clear he's always known what it contained. It'd be pretty stupid for Megatron to let Dinobot handle the disk if he didn't want him to know what was on the disk. The entire Darksyde crew knew what was on that disk. Maybe not exactly but there's no indication that it was ever a secret only Megatron knew about.

Even that's no guarantee of death. He could be crippled and deemed unfit for battle but still live like Lt. Dan from Forest Gump. He could survive the war like Cheetor and Rattrap did. Being a warrior doesn't guarantee a death... not your own anyway, someone's guaranteed to die but that someone isn't necessarily going to be you.

It's like if you and another person are being chased by a tiger. One of you is going to die, that is guaranteed. You can not out run him. However you don't need to out run the tiger, you only need to outrun the other person. He will be killed buying you some time to put some distance between you and possibly survive.

The chances of Dinobot's death are much higher than most other Tranformers but still not guaranteed.

Time travel is confusing enough when I'm actually awake. I'm not sure how I even made it through this post when I'm barely coherent right now. I'm going to sleep now.

 

I've mentioned this before. That can't be the reason because if it was this would of happened at the beginning of season 2. Dinobot didn't believe he was actually on Earth because of the second moon but that was destroyed long before this episode. Plus why would he agree to go along with Megatron's plan in the first place? It shouldn't matter if they were on the wrong planet or not because Dinobot knew what he signed up for and he didn't care. Yet now for some reason he suddenly does care. Why didn't he think of this BEFORE he joined Megatron?

 

maybe it is like my tf headcannon where Megatron lied to cybertronians to get them to be Decepticons like telling blackout he wants the Allspark to help cybertron rather than use it to conquer.

 

I'm not following your reasoning. Dinobot's realization about Earth, his theft of both Golden Disks and subsequent contemplation about the future all happened in the same episode, Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1).

For Dinobot, this revelation changed everything. It's the very reason he struggled with his allegiances just two episodes later in Maximal, No More. The belief that he was on the wrong planet is what made Dinobot defect in the first place (albeit Scorponok's sucker punch didn't help). Being on Earth meant the "unimaginable glory" Megatron envisioned had become a very real possibility. Dinobot was tempted to be a part of it, which is why he returned the Voyager disk to Megatron.

 

It does start to happen at the beginning of season 2. We're shown scenes of both Dinobot and Megatron noticing the newly singular moon in the sky, and although it's not all spelled out in dialogue, the animation is meant to clue us in that the mental "gears" are turning for both of them. Dinobot noticing the change in the sky is almost certainly the inspiration for him to steal the disc from Megatron to see what it contains. But thoughts and actions don't happen all at once, and there's a progression of events up until he actually reaches that turning point. It's a "slow burn" happening in the background until then.

And more than likely he would have considered these questions when he initially joined Megatron on his mission to steal the disc. But the existential dread of it all would be far more real once the disc is in his own hands and he actually has the option of reading it. More importantly, he needs to have that crisis aloud at this point for the benefit of the audience. Whatever he was thinking before the first episode won't have any emotional impact unless he considers it again now.

 

I can understand why you have that thinking based on what we seen in other sci-fi shows but I don’t see how it applies to beast wars

What we saw with Megatron and the mountain would indicate that that historical record wouldn’t be altered on the recording until some major change was made

That’s an entirely different debate based on what time traveling theroy were going with

The flash drives should contain all the information up until the point when you left and I don’t see why it would contain any other information that you created while in the past

I didn’t say the flash drive did not exist in 2017 what made you think that?

What I’m saying is that the information you gathered in the past should not be on the 2017 Flash Dr. until you Add more information at a later date

OK but the change to the mountain Was not recorded on the disk until the action was taken

Then why wouldn’t Dinobot’s death be on the disk before the action is taken?

So are you suggesting that it had information that he would die but not by what manner?

Thanks for the correction but I still think that counts as Megatron doing it

OK I’m gonna try to give you an example based on your example here

Let’s just say I’m in 1986 and I have a flash drive or a book from 2017 predicting future events and let’s just say I alter some of those events so that they can never happen

I don’t see why the info on the flash drive Would change from the original info we have seen in Star Trek at least and then a few other Syfy is that I could think of that the other side from the future would still contain all the original information and head before I altered the past in the way it was originally recorded not in an altered state

So in other words if I took the information from the book from the future and use that information to take over the world that books information would not Chronicle the changes I need to history, it would still contain the original unfolding of history

For a guy like Dino but there is a guarantee of death, he’s thinking would be very similar to that of mainstream Klingons.... if they are crippled and deemed unfit for battle They commit suicide

Have a nice sleep buddy

 

OMG I really really REALLY tried to read all the way through this thread, but, just wow.......

 

You are misinterpreting the words in his speech:

"For if, the future is indeed imutably foretold, then my demise is but moments from the confirmation. For I, I could not live if not the master of my fate."

In other words.... He's saying if the future cannot be changed and he's able to confirm that, then he's going to kill himself moments later, because he doesn't want to live if he wasn't in control of his own fate.

He's only just now concerned about the disk because up until this episode, they thought they had been on the wrong planet. That's the reason why Dinobot had revolted against Megatron in the first episode. And remember how both he and Waspinator looked up at the moon and realized they actually had been on Earth the whole time in this episode?

"For I, I could not live if not the master of my fate."

Claiming someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk, such as Beast Machines Cheetor sending a message back in time, is not something that is supported by the series.

Again, Dinobot specifically says "For I, I could not live if not the master of my fate." It may only be one sentence but it is not at all out of context, nor am I twisting the speech to fit that one sentence. That sentence is the reason he gives for his death that you're completely ignoring.

You can't know about an event in the past with out some sort of recorded knowledge of that event. Especially on an alien planet.

And as I pointed out, a fossil only forms under very specific conditions, generally buried under sediment which protects them from weathering among other conditions. It's also not the original organic organism anymore, having been replaced with rock. We're lucky to have the fossils we've found. Do you know how rare it is to find a whole and complete fossil?

Just because something isn't biodegradable doesn't mean the elements aren't going to break it down. Again, as I pointed out with the Titanic, there are organisms eating away at its metal which are speeding up its deterioration.

Voyager 1 was launched September 5, 1977. The Autobots and Decepticons didn't wake up until 1984. Humans in this Transfomers universe didn't know about alien life yet when they'd built and launched Voyager.

Why would G1 Megatron know anything about Dinobot? Given how the Maximals and Predacons refer to Autobots and Decepticons as their ancestors, there's no reason to believe Megatron would know anything about Dinobot.

Again, there's no reason to believe there is any future information on the Vok disk, especially when we never actually saw what was on it.

Both. No one from Cybertron knew anything about the Beast Wars prior to the Maximals/Predacons who lived through it.

No, that's a record of a mountain somebody took a picture of, not of the Beast Wars specifically. They wouldn't know how or why the mountain looked like that millions of years after the fact.

It is entirely relevant to the conversation. You can't make the claim someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk and just make up some explanation for it that isn't in the series.

No. A fossil is something that was organic that has been replaced by inorganic rock. And just because something isn't organic doesn't mean it's man made.

A fossil isn't a bone. It was a bone, that became a rock through a long process of sediments replacing the bone's structure.

No, the Titanic wreck has actually changed considerably since it was discovered on the ocean floor. It's continuing to deteriorate and fall apart while on the ocean floor.

I didn't say it'd turn to dust in 20 years, I said the wreck would be destroyed. After a few million years it'll probably be nothing but dust. Here's an article about it: Rust-eating species 'will destroy wreck of Titanic within 20 years'.

As the article I linked above points out, there are organisms eating the metal on the Titanic, but for further proof that there is such a thing besides the bottom of the ocean: Metal-eating microbes in African lake could solve mystery of the planet's iron deposits.

Really I think you need to re-watch the entire series, because you are mis-remembering a great deal of it. But here's a Link to that scene.

I'm not ignoring any context. I fully acknowledge he mentions his death, but he's not saying what you think he's saying. Mentioning his death 3 times in and of itself doesn't mean that he's saying it's recorded on the disk. The context of the speech tells us he's planning on killing himself if he finds out the future is predetermined because he cannot live if not the master of his own fate.

There's no evidence to support that claim. For all we know, the Beast Wars was a predestination paradox. Especially considering details like the Earth only having one moon and the Nemesis wasn't found in the ocean.

For the sake of length I'm just going to quote this first question. Dinobot had literally just stolen the two disks from the Predacon ship. He wouldn't have had time to look at the information on either of them yet, let alone analyze and understand them. I don't know why Dinobot would generalize both as a record of the future, but again, he doesn't know what's on the Vok disk at all so he's probably just making an assumption. Not to mention, it's more poetic given the Shakespearean nature of the speech. I wouldn't say he spends the majority of the speech looking at the Vok disk in-particular. Part of it he's actually looking at his own reflection as he reflects on his existential crisis that he's having. He knows the Voyager disk has information on the future because that was Megatron's plan to begin with. That's why they time traveled to prehistoric Earth. And there's no reason why he wouldn't have trusted Megatron at that time. Why is it only now that the idea of changing the future bothering him? For for starters, he's still not sure it's even possible, hence the whole reason for the speech about whether or not the future is predetermined or if it can be changed. Secondly, he does briefly rejoin Megatron in "Maximal, No More", it's only as Megatron is about to stab him in the back that Dinobot decides against it. And finally Dinobot's outlook has changed during the Beast Wars.

 

You're mistaken on all accounts. Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1) is where all the aforementioned events occurred. You quoted Dinobot's speech yourself (and even posted the actual scene) near the beginning of this thread:

"To be… or not to be. That is the question. These disks I hold… Are they a record of what will be, or only of what may? For if the future is indeed immutably foretold… then my demise is but moments from that confirmation, for I… I could not live if not the master of my fate. But… if the future can be changed… if these disks record merely one path of all the myriad ways the cosmos might conform… then their power is infinite, and yet still limited, for they can be used but once, and in that change be rendered fiction forevermore. I could destroy them! But… no. T’would be a coward’s answer. I will know the truth instead. Then, t'will be either them or me that face oblivion... Till then."

You attributed the scene to Code of Hero in your original post, but it's actually from Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1). Dinobot didn't even have the disks in Code of Hero; the alien disk was previously destroyed in Other Visits (Part 2), and the Voyager disk was in Megatron's possession. Dinobot's actual speech from Code of Hero is:

"The question that once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic... for I now find that I have no choice at all! I am a warrior... let the battle be joined."

This speech occurs after Dinobot witnesses Rampage destroying the mountaintop shown in the Voyager disk, bringing closure to his character arc in season 2.

Maximal, No More came after Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2) and Tangled Web. By my count, that's two episodes since Part 1.

How do we know Dinobot never pondered the matter back then?

 

His death isn't confirmation of anything. The line is: "For if, the future is indeed imutably foretold, then my demise is but moments from the confirmation". The confirmation he's talking about here is if he learns the future is "imutably foretold". In other words, if he confirms the future is predetermined, then his death will come moments after that because "For I, I could not live if not the master of my fate."

"Coming of the Fuzors, part 1" is the same episode in which Dinobot and Waspinator realize they're on Earth, as well as when Dinobot takes the Disks and makes the speech about them.

What planet they're on is the whole point of the plan to change the future. The Voyager disc holds a record of Earth's history. Earth's also where the Ark is, where the Autobots and Decepticons were in stasis lock for 4 million years. The plan to change history using the Golden Disk wouldn't work on any other planet. When they arrived and thought they were on the wrong planet, the Golden Disk was useless to them. But in realizing that they'd actually been on Earth the whole time, the disk and thus the plan to change history became relevant again.

These posts are so long I lost track of that and had to go back and edit that post (same thing with this post), not to mention trying to trim things down to the main points. But essentially I was saying you can't know about an event in the past without some sort of recorded knowledge of that event. There's nothing to suggest any evidence from the Beast Wars survived for millions of years, let alone something specific like you suggest. A blown up mountain top isn't going to tell you who, what or why. After millions of years, scientists would most likely think it was hit by an asteroid or something, rather than time traveling aliens.

It is not out of context nor am I warping anything to make it fit my interpretation. Looking at the whole speech doesn't change anything about this line. If the future is predetermined, he doesn't want to live if he's not the master of his own fate. That's what he's saying. Nothing he says suggests the disk has a record of his death on it.

I'm not saying you said it was a fact, nor did I misquote you. You said there were tons of ways you could explain how Dinobot's death ended up on the Golden Disk, I just used one of them as an example. That's all. My point here still stands, you can't just make up a reason that isn't in the show for how information on Dinobot's death could have ended up on the Golden Disk to support your idea that Dinobot had prior knowledge of his death from the disk. You're trying to force an explanation for something that isn't in the show at all.

We have one line from Dinobot during his Shakespearean speech, when he has yet to know anything about what's on the Vok disk. There's no reason to believe Dinobot is right about that when nothing else in the rest of the series suggests the Vok disk has information on the future.

You really need to do some research. This article points out there are about 15 good T-Rex fossilized skeletons we've found. Only 2 of which are nearly complete, meaning we don't actually have one that is complete. It's extremely rare to find a complete fossilized skeleton.

Inorganic does not mean man made. The definition of inorganic is: "not consisting of or deriving from living matter." In other words, something that isn't/wasn't part of a living thing. Rocks, for the most part, are inorganic, although there are some that are organic such as coal. Fossils are formed by groundwater and sedimentary rocks replacing the structure of an animal's bone, essentially transforming that bone into a rock. Nothing magical about it.

It's not how quickly I think it's falling apart, that what various articles (such as the one I linked) and documentaries about the Titanic say from the people who have studied the Titanic wreck.

Being a wreck already makes no difference, the point here is that what's left of it is still deteriorating. And it's happening relatively fast all things considered. Personally, I'd have to doubt it'll be gone in another 20 years but again, not really the point. With how relatively quickly it's falling apart do you think it'll still be there in a few million years for someone to find? The scientists who have studied it say no. And to go back to the original reason I brought this up, what's left behind by the Maximals similarly would be subject to the elements on Earth. They probably would not be around anymore to be found in a few million years.

And the episode shows us G1 Megatron recording his message on the disk while it was near Saturn. Exactly where it was in real life in 1984.

During events G1 Megatron would have no knowledge of. Just being in the past doesn't mean anything if you have no way about finding out about those events. You keep claiming there would be archaeological evidence and the like, but again, this is millions of years later. Any evidence of the Beast Wars would long be gone by that point. But even if there was, it wouldn't be anything specific like Dinobot's death.

That's not at all how I think the time line works, nor do I nderstand why you would think that it is. Again, just because something happens in the past, that doesn't mean people in the future automatically know all about it like you keep suggesting. That's not how anything works. A lot of what we know of the pre-historic past is guess work based on incomplete evidence at best. That's only going to get us so far. Take for example, we don't actually know what a living dinosaur looked liked. We've guessed that they looked like modern day reptiles, but more recent evidence suggests they actually had feathers.

Why would he pray with his sword pointed at himself? I've never seen anyone come to that conclusion. What Dinobot was about to do here is called seppuku, a form of suicide that was practiced by Japanese samurai. Basically it's a warrior's suicide, generally done to preserve their honor.

Again, as Dinobot tells us, he's going to kill himself if he finds out the future is predetermined. It's got nothing to do with the information that's on the disk, but how that information works in relation to trying to change history.

Being a predestination paradox doesn't mean they couldn't alter history in other ways. Somethings were meant to happen (such as the second moon being destroyed and altering the other to its modern day appearance), others were not (like the mountain or the time storm caused by Prime's near death).

I know they only have so much time to tell a story in the episode, but there's no reason to believe Dinobot had time to stop and watch the information on both disks. It's much more likely the hill top was the first stop he made after stealing the disks. Besides, while Megatron had a disc player built into his tail weapon, we never saw any such thing built into Dinobot's. How would he have accessed the information?

Not directly, but Megatron has, and Dinobot knows this. He has no reason not to believe Megatron.

That's not a double standard, those are two completely different circumstances. Dinobot had no reason not to trust Megatron when they stole the Golden Disk in the first place. And that's something within the context of the show. We as the audience however, being outside the context of the show, have no reason to take Dinobot's word that both disks contain a record of the future when that is never actually established in the series.

Being unsure if it can be done isn't the same thing as thinking it can't be done. Obviously he felt it could be possible to change history, but it's untested, leaving him conflicted. And as Oakie620 said, it's possible Dinobot pondered this before they arrived on Earth. It just never came up in the series before now because he thought they'd been on the wrong planet until this episode.

 

you are indeed misunderstanding what I’ve been saying, I’m not sure if that’s because I haven’t been exactly clear or because you think I’m in full agreement with what others have said here

What I believe is that the picture on the desk would indeed exist but should remain on altered despite whether or not it was destroyed by time traveling persons

I recall you mentioned Star Trek first contact earlier in this debate regarding the debris of the Borg left in the past, Well that story kind of fits into what I’m getting into here

In Star Trek we have seen several times that the persons and artifacts the trouble to the pass do not have the memory or memory files altered by changes made to history.In other words the people still remember the original unfolding of history and likewise the computers or history files that they may have with them also remain on altered By any changes to history

So in first contact on the borg went back in time and altered history, The enterprise computers still contained all the information of how history unfolded the first time.Which is different then when we got wood beast wars seeing as the image on the history files altered when Megatron made a change in the past

Maybe you missed the part where I said you continue to record information while in the past

know what I said was the additional information wouldn’t be added to the disk till 2020

as I stated in my original post you continue to gather information while in the past

Specifically the actions we take in the past

no to those two options

My logic based on what I have seen the most from time travel event stories is that the picture I took to the past shouldn’t change at all Because it’s outside of the time change event and is basically an artifact from a lost history

Some of my post may have disappeared with all this typing and for that I’m sorry but I believe I got into that more in this post

I’ve always wondered if the shows creators were fans of Star Trek

 

I know what I posted thank you very much. And might I ask, how do you think I found the speech and the scene if I was looking for the wrong episode?

I mentioned that line in my original post though I didn't directly quote it, it's from later in the same episode, Code of Hero, as the other speech.

I posted that scene earlier in the thread too. "When reality alters the future alters with it. With the Golden Disk, Megatron's power is limitless." That's all he says. The quote you mentioned is from just before Dinobot saves the protohumans.

Then you don't know how to count.

0. Coming of the Fuzors Part 1.

1. Coming of the Fuzors Part 2.

2. Tangled Web

3. Maximal No More

If you were counting both parts of Coming of the Fuzors as one episode then it'd be two.

0. Coming of the Fuzors parts 1 and 2

1. Tangled Web

2. Maximal No More.

There's two episodes between Coming of the Fuzors part 1 and Maximal No More but you didn't say between, you said since. That means you're counting from Coming of the Fuzors part 1 to Maximal no More.

That's like saying on December first that there's only 23 days till Christmas. (Which for me is actually true because my family celebrates on the 24th but for everyone else you forgot to count a day.) There would be 23 days between the first and the 25th but not 23 days till the 25. 1 + 23 = 24 not 25.

Because he joined Megatron and helped him to steal the Golden Disk in the first place. That's not something he would do back then if he felt the same way as he does now.

A prime example of you twisting what is actually written. Note how you have the beginning and end of the quote in bold while blatantly ignoring the middle of the quote. This is the very definition of twisting the words around to change their meaning.

Just because you're choosing to ignore the words "then my demise is but moments" doesn't mean his death isn't confirmation of anything.

This is the full quote. "For if, the future is indeed imutably foretold, then my demise is but moments from the confirmation" You can't just pick and choose the parts you want to pay attention to. You have to find a meaning that fits the text as it's written. You can't change the text to fit an entirely different meaning.

When you aren't twisting things around and changing the context. That line says, and I'm going to simplify this into modern English...

If the future can not be changed, then I only have moments to live until the future is proven to be correct.

You are blatantly ignoring the middle part of that quote where he clearly says that his death will confirm it. Your interpretation goes something like this.

If the future can not be changed ... until the future is proven to be correct ... Then I'm going to kill myself.

It doesn't work that way. How is the future going to be proven to be correct? How is he going to know if the future can not be changed? This puts a giant gap in the translation where there's no context for anything. It's just a couple of incomplete sentences that make no sense. You know why they don't make sense? Because you ignore 1/3rd of the quote. You're essentially rewriting the quote to fit with your own views not trying to read and understand it as it's already been written.

Nope. The second moon was destroyed at the end of season 1. They see that in Aftermath, that's when they realize they're on Earth. Technically speaking they should of realized it when they found out it wasn't actually a moon, and maybe probably suspected it back then but when the Planet Buster was destroyed it would of confirmed those suspicions. Shortly after waking up in Aftermath Dinobot went to look up at the sky and saw the sky had changed to only one moon. I think he tried to say something to the other Maximals about it at some point during the episode but they were busy getting use to their new Transmetal bodies to give a crap about the moon being gone. I think Cheetor said something to the effect of who cares about some dumb moon, look I can fly now. Rhinox was also busy with his own stuff because with Primal gone at this point in the show he had to take command. Trying to figure out what happened to Cheetor and Rattrap was more important than the moon at that point. The loss of Optimus Primal was more important than the moon at that point... they get him back eventually but right now he's dead. So Dinobot basically was silenced while the other Maximals were dealing with their own stuff but he was already aware he was on Earth at that point.

I understand that, but you're missing my point.

At the beginning of Dinobot's arc, he agreed to help Megatron. He helped to steal the Golden Disk. He was on the Darksyde as a Predacon on a mission to change the future. This all happened before they even crashed on Earth in the first place.

Towards of end of Dinobot's arc, he was questioning if Megatron's plan was even possible. He's asking if the future can be changed. He's doubting a mission that he once believed in.

What I'm asking is, what has changed between these two points in time to make Dinobot suddenly question the future being fixed? The realization that they're on Earth has nothing to do with that question because this is a question that Dinobot could of asked back on Cybertron. He's obviously never cared or thought about this before because if he had then it wouldn't make sense for him to join Megatron in the first place. This means something must of happened, he must of seen something that triggered this change to his character. It can't be the realization that they're on Earth, all that means is that Megatron can continue with his original mission. That has nothing to do with why Dinobot is suddenly questioning if it's even possible.

He must of believed that the future could be changed otherwise he wouldn't of joined Megatron.

He now thinks that the future might be fixed, so why does he suddenly think that? He never thought about this before so why is he asking this now? What has changed to make him ask this question?

It is out of context and you are warping everything to fit your interpretation. Looking at the whole speech does change that line, that's the whole point of context. One sentence could mean many different things depending on how it's used. You have to pay attention to the rest of the speech to actually understand it. By itself that sentence could mean anything.

"Nothing you're suggesting here is supported in any way by events in the show. You can't just make up an explanation to support your assertion that someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the Golden Disk for him to know about it for this speech. It has to actually be supported in some way by the events we actually see in the series."

"Claiming someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk, such as Beast Machines Cheetor sending a message back in time, is not something that is supported by the series."

Something which is supported by the series would be a fact so you have tried to claim I stated it as a fact when I did not.

This is the quote you used.

"Nope, I'm making assumptions that ARE supported by the series. If they weren't supported then that would mean the Beast Wars characters aren't from the future. The Golden Disks are not from the future. And Dinobot did not die in Code of Hero. Except all that stuff is true which means the series does support it."

I never mentioned Beast Machines Cheetor anywhere in that quote. In fact I never even mentioned him anywhere in that post. This is what I actually said about Beast Machines Cheetor.

"Yes there is. There are tones of ways they could have recorded it on the disks. I've mentioned a few before but here they are again.

1. Human archeologists dug up the remains of the Beast Wars and recorded the data onto the Golden Disk for aliens to find thinking they must be alien technology of some kind.

2. Decepticons discovered the remains of the Beast Wars which prompted Megatron to encrypt his message in the first place knowing from the evidence they found that these transformers must be from the future.

3. Rattrap in the future after the events of Beast Machines created the Golden Disk with the Vok symbols on it and a message to Dinobot as a warning hoping it would change the outcome of how the Beast Wars ended.

4. The Vok are also from the future and they created the disk with knowledge of the future as part of some plot.

5. The Autobots found the remains and they left the message.

6. Cheetor after Beast Machines created the message and sent it to the past.

Seriously, literally anyone could have recorded it in the future and sent it back in time to the Beast Wars for any number of reasons. It's hard to tell who or why since we're never actually shown the message but it doesn't matter. The important thing is that the message does exist, we know it exists because we're specifically told that information is on the Golden Disks. It makes perfect sense given the time travel element to the show. Someone in the future, recorded events of the Beast Wars, and sent that information into the past. It's not that complicated. We haven't even gotten to the difficult part of time travel, the paradoxes, and you're already confused. I'm still trying to get you to understand that they traveled backwards in time. I don't know how to explain the more complicated stuff to you when you can't even passed the simple concepts. You're persistent on believing that historical records of the future can't exist because it hasn't happened yet, which would be true if we weren't talking a science fiction where characters from years in the future time traveled years into the past. Historical records of the past would exist in the future. If time travel exists then historical records of the future can also exist."

You took a statement out of context from an entirely different post and attributed that comment to a completely different quote that had nothing to do with it. That is misquoting.

One line is all we really need to suggest the Vok disk has information on the future. Dinobot is alone when he says that, there's no reason for him to lie when there's no one around to lie to. There's no reason he would say it had information on it if he didn't know that to be true.

There is so much wrong with this quote.

1. Inorganic
"not resulting from or produced by growth; artificial"

Artificial
"made by human skill; produced by humans"

Inorganic can mean not consisting of or deriving from living matter because most organic matter is thought to be or to have been alive. However you should really learn to read beyond one sentence... or in this case, one definition.

2. Coal was never alive. Apparently it was formed by plant matter some how over millions of years according to wikipedia which I don't even trust as a reliable source. However first of all, technically plants are currently scientifically classified as living things except I think that classification should be changed. Plants don't have brains, that should be a requirement to actually be alive. It doesn't need to be complex, even a simple brain, something which only carries out the basic functions to live, is still a brain. All plants do is sit there no different than a rock or a corpse. Dead bodies have brains but they no longer function in any way. If your sleeping or in a coma by the way, sure your body might not be moving but your brain is still functioning, heart's beating, lungs are breathing, your brain controls all the basic functions you need to live. So how the hell is a plant alive when nothing exists showing any signs of life. Sure they grow and reproduce, but so can a computer... artificially but it can still technically happen. So is my computer alive? Secondly, if it takes millions of years for plant matter to turn into coal then how do we know it happens at all? No one is that old, no one could of witnessed this change happen, so we must not know about it right. I'm being sarcastic right now. You know because you said earlier that thing about how there's no record of things that happened in the past.

3. That's not how fossils are formed. That's how imprints of fossils are formed. An imprint is like a negative image not the fossil itself. A dinosaur bone is a fossil. Note how they're called Dinosaur BONES not rocks.

4. Transforming a bone into a rock is freaking magic. Last I checked the only thing that could transform living matter into stone was Medusa, a mythical Greek legend, freaking magic.

You do realize there's a difference between replacing something and transforming it right? You use those words like they're interchangeable but they're not. To replace means you're talking about two entirely different things. To transform means you're talking about ONE THING in different forms. To replace a bone with a rock means that there use to be a bone which is gone now and now there is a rock but these are two entirely separate objects. To transform a bone into rock means the bone and the rock are both the same object.

I'm going to REPLACE G1 Rodimus Prime with Power of the Primes Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime. This is possible.

I'm going to TRANSFORM G1 Rodimus Prime into Power of the Primes Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime. This is freaking magic.

G1 Rodimus Prime can only transform from his futuristic RV Camper mode to his robot mode. That's the only transforming I can do and have it still be the same toy. I can't transform him into and entirely different figure from a totally different toy line, that would be magic.

I can replace a glass of water with a glass of wine.

I can not transform water into wine. That would be magic.

Transforming bone into rock is magic.

It is how quickly YOU think it's falling apart. You may of gotten the information from another source but you trusted that information to be accurate. You cited that information. That means you must think that as well otherwise you never would of brought it up.

I'm going to have to brake this down too.

"Being a wreck already makes no difference"

Yes it does because you claimed that it's going to fall apart. The fact that it's a wreck means that's already happened. Like I keep telling you CONTEXT MATTERS. There's a big difference between going to fall apart, is falling apart, and fell apart. You're describing something that's going to happen or is happening as if it's something that's already happened.

"the point here is that what's left of it is still degrading."

Yes it is and no one is arguing against that so how is that the point?

"And it's happening relatively fast all things considered."

No it isn't and that's the point.

"Personally, I'd have to doubt it'll be gone in another 20 years but again, not really the point."

First of all, if you doubt that then why even make that claim in the first place? That would be like me, an Atheist, claiming that God exists and referencing the Bible as my source. As an Atheist, I don't believe in God so it makes no sense for me to claim he exists. There's no reason to make any sort of claim that I doubt is actually true. If I make the claim then I must there for believe that it is accurate to the best of my knowledge at the time.

Secondly, as I said above, no one is arguing that things decay over time. What we're arguing is HOW QUICKLY you think that happens. Your claim of 20 years is exactly the point. It's laughably fast, especially considering how many things have survived much longer time periods. There are tons of things in museums that are millions, and billions of years old yet you seem to think that in less than 200 years everything is dust. I have no doubt that the Titaninc will be nothing but a rust stain on the ocean floor in the future but it's not going to happen in the next 20 years. 20,000,000 years, sure, maybe, that I could believe, but 20 is the most laughable guess I have ever heard.

"With how relatively quickly it's falling apart do you think it'll still be there in a few million years for someone to find?"

See here again, you reference how quickly it's falling apart. How is that not the point? It's not falling apart quickly, it's SLOWLY falling apart just like everything else. It will still be there in a few million years. In worse condition than it is right now but it will still exist none the less.

"The scientists who have studied it say no."

Those aren't real scientists. In any real scientific study, they would have to demonstrate repeatable results. There's nothing repeatable about this study. They haven't even shown the results once let alone twice. They haven't compared it with other ship wrecks to study how quickly they've decayed to come up with this estimate. They looked at the Titanic and went "yeah that's going to be gone in 20 years." They basically just pulled a random number out of their ass. That's not how science works.

In order to actually come up with any kind of estimate like that you would need to examine other ship wrecks as well. This would require years of research as they would have to provide other examples of ships that within 125 years were nothing but rust stains on the bottom of the ocean. They don't even provide one example of another ship this has already happened to. The only ship wreck that they looked at was the Titanic itself. This means that they came up with a guess of 20 years based on absolutely nothing.

"Similarly, what's left behind by the Maximals would be subject to the elements on Earth, and probably not be around anymore to be found in a few million years."

Except what's left behind by the Maximals wasn't left at the bottom of the freaking ocean. The constant exposure to the salt water and water pressure would cause most of the damage over the years.

Most of what the Maximals left behind was on dry land. Water exposure is what causes metal to rust. Especially salt water. That stuff is corrosive to metal. It takes years of exposure to actually do anything. A metal car isn't going to instantly rust the first time you go threw the car wash... not that cars are even made of metal anymore. It doesn't rain 24/7 so being on land rather than in the ocean, is going to make a huge difference.

Depth Charge and Rampage died under water. They will likely rust and decay first because they're constantly being exposed to it. Those two would be in the worst condition. At least Rampage would. I believe it was said in one episode that Depth Charge was designed to be resistant to the water. Which makes since considering his name and beast form that he would need to be water resistant for his own survival. He spends a lot of time in the water while most other characters tend to avoid it for fear of rusting. Still resistant doesn't mean he can't rust, just that it might take longer to effect him. And he'd still end up being in worse condition than the stuff on land that isn't being constantly exposed to it.

It wasn't pointed at himself it was pointed at the floor. It's a classic stance for knights to pray in that position.



This is is just one of many MANY examples. Here's a link to all the images that came up. knight praying - Yahoo Image Search Results

He couldn't have been pointing it at himself because the blade is too long and his arms are too short. If he had pointed the sword at himself it would be going half way threw his torso already.

I looked that up and kinda glad you mentioned that because that search resulted in an image that demonstrates why Dinobot could not have pointed the sword at himself.



See how in this image the sword is ALREADY in his stomach? See how close his arms are to his body? This is how Dinobot was when his sword was supposedly pointed at him. Considering how he didn't actually die how could he point it at himself?

In order for that to work he would need to have his arms fully extended above his head, the sword itself would need to be shorter, or he'd have to be holding the blade rather than the handle. Just pointing it at himself without actually stabbing himself in that position isn't possible. There wouldn't be enough space between the tip of his sword and himself to hold it that way without actually having stabbed himself.

Plus the handle of his sword is pointed straight up the way the knight in the previous photo is holding it. This would indicate that the sword is pointed at the floor. If it was pointed at Dinobot then the handle should be horizontal to his body not vertical.

Again, if that's the case then why is this only coming up now? Dinobot has always known that information existed and it was never a problem but now suddenly it's a problem. What changed?

Yes it does. That's exactly what a predestination paradox is. There is no history to alter, it's already happened and there for must happen. That's the very definition of that particular paradox.

I showed you a diagram of this before, it's a circle. You travel back in time to prevent a tragedy, lets say, the JFK assassination. You find his shooter and the two of you get into a fight. The dude doesn't even know why you attacked him. In the mist of your fight you tell him you're going to stop him from shooting JFK. He then replies "I never even thought about shooting JFK until now." Of course he gets away from you, gets a hold of a gun, and shoots JFK. As it turns out from your little adventure you basically caused the assassination in the first place. If you hadn't of gone back in time and attacked that guy for no reason he never would have gotten the idea. You caused the very thing you tried to change. That's a predestination paradox. No matter what happens history will always turn out the same way.

You got that from Doctor Who. I've never seen any other sci-fi where some things are fixed and others can be changed. And nothing in Beast Wars supports this idea.

Did you not notice the scene transition? That indicates the passage of time. That is a reason to believe Dinobot had time to stop and watch the information on both disks.

There's also the fact that he's just standing there starting at them for a little bit as the camera zooms in before actually starting his speech. He's clearly been there for a while now.

Plus considering he's questioning if the future can be change or if it's fixed, it only makes sense that he would have to actually look at the disks at least once. Nothing can ever be confirmed without looking. Why even bother going threw the trouble to take them if he has no intention of looking at the information? Something on the disks had to be there to trigger this. He had to see something to be able to confirm it.

How do you know he didn't view the information on that same hill top?

As for the disk player, how is it that Megatron just happens to have that? He didn't have it built. There's no indication of it ever having been built. It just happens to be a function of his tail weapon. Seemly it's just pure luck that the Transmetal wave happen to give him that upgrade.

As for how would Dinobot have accessed the information, supposedly all he really needs is something sharp and something to spin the disk both of which he can do. Did you forget about his spinning tail weapon. It was only the main gimmick of his original toy. He rarely used it in the show and usually stuck to just the sword as his main weapon but he did use it a couple times and his beast mode wouldn't work without that part since it forms the outer skin section of his tail. He could use that thing as a turn table.

I don't know how he would project any images but I also really don't know how Megatron was able to do that either. Like where was the image actually coming from? There was no screen or anything resembling a projector on the player itself. The image just seemed to appear from nothing onto nothing. Some how he was able to generate some kind of hologram.

We're basically just trying to figure out how their advanced alien technology just happens to be compatible with a disk created by humans in the 70's at this point. Even our own advanced technology isn't backwards compatible with outdated 70's disks. Even with the instructions on the disk about how to play it, I don't think anyone would ever be able to. I mean if you didn't know what those symbols mean would you ever have guessed they were player instructions? I sure they made sense to people back in the 70's but now days it's just a bunch of meaningless gibberish. I'm sure similarly if we sent up a blu ray with similar instructions on how to play the disk in another 40 years no one would understand how blu rays work. It'd be easier to just send up the disk with a player that just has one button. That way it's super obvious how it works because there's only one thing you can actually press. That starts the player and then the disk plays automatically from there.

That's not the point.

1. You say that we have no reason to believe that the Vok disk contains information about the future because we've never seen it.

If that's the case, then Dinobot has no reason to believe that the Voyager disk contains information about the future because he's never seen it.

2. You say that Megatron has seen the information on the Voyager Disk and that Dinobot has no reason not to trust him.

If that's the case then Dinobot has seen the information on the Vok Disk and that we have no reason not to trust him.

You're presenting a double standard. I'm saying the same thing you are only I'm replacing Megatron with Dinobot, Dinobot with us, and the Voyager Disk with the Vok Disk. Your two claims contradict each other. You can't have it both ways.

1. If we can't know what's on the Vok disk because we haven't see it then Dinobot can't know what's on the Voyager disk without seeing it.

2. If Megatron's word is good enough evidence for Dinobot to trust that information exists without actually seeing it for himself then Dinobot's word should be good enough evidence for us to trust that information exists without actually seeing it for ourselves.

So which is it? One or two? You can't argue both sides. My argument has always been for number two by the way. One is only there to demonstrate the two conflicting arguments you made.

No they're not. There is a claim made about the existence of a thing that has not been seen. That's the circumstance, they're both exactly the same. The only thing that has changed is who made the claim, what the thing is, and who hasn't seen it none of which change the actual circumstances. That is a double standard.

A. Bob says to Kate, "I got two tickets for Hamlet, you wanna come with me?"

"No!" Kate has not seen the tickets and there for has no reason to believe that Bob has them.

"Yes!" Kate has no reason not to trust Bob.

B. Kate says to Bob, "I got two tickets for the new Transformers movie, you wanna come with me?"

"No!" Bob has not seen the tickets and there for has no reason to believe that Kate has them.

"Yes!" Bob has no reason not to trust Kate.

Both circumstances are the same so your answer should be the same. If it's not, that's a double standard. You have to answer yes to both A and B or No to both A and B. If you say No to A and Yes to B that is a double standard. If you say Yes to A and No to B that is a double standard. It's the same situation, it should have the same answer not two different ones. All I did was flip the names around and change Hamlet to a Transformers movie but that doesn't change the circumstances.

But they would have no way of knowing what was on the disk until after actually stealing it. Technically at that point Megatron hadn't seen the message yet either. They stole the Golden Disk because of rumors that G1 Megatron had recorded some kind of message on the disk but neither of them had seen it yet. They couldn't have seen the message before they stole the disk.

That's like if I said there's a hidden message on the back of the declaration of independence. A lot of people believe this is a thing, there's even been a few movies that use that as plot point. However no one has ever actually looked at it to see if anything is there. That's basically the equivalent of claiming that the Golden Disk has any kind of information. They're no more than crazy conspiracy theorists at that point, believing in something which no one has ever seen.

Let me try to understand and explain something here.

The claim I'm trying to prove is that Dinobot has seen what's on the Vok disk.

The bold part in the quote is the claim you're trying to prove.

The evidence I have provided to prove my claim is that Dinobot directly stated that he has seen what's on the Vok disk.

The evidence that you're providing to prove your claim... is also the bold part in the quote.

You do realize that you can't use your claim as evidence to itself right? You're basically just dismissing evidence that doesn't support your own beliefs. You aren't providing anything that supports that claim.

Plus this is a double standard. You just got through saying that Dinobot had no reason not to trust Megatron yet here you are claiming we can't trust Dinobot.

Technically speaking, Megatron is a known liar within the show. Though I'm ignoring that and assuming that if Dinobot had only just met him at the time that he'd have no way of knowing that yet.

Anyway... we as the audience have no reason not to trust Dinobot. He's alone in the scene, there's no one around for him to lie to. We're the only ones who can hear him and he has no idea that we exist. He's not talking to us, he's just thinking out loud to himself. There is literally no reason why he would say something that isn't true.

You're insisting that Dinobot can trust Megatron that the Voyager disk has information on it without ever seeing it.

If that's the argument you want to make then you must also accept that we do not need to see the information on the Vok disk to trust Dinobot's word that it exist.

You're insisting that we have to actually see what's on the Vok disk or we can not know it's there.

If this is the argument you want to make then you must also accept that Dinobot can not trust Megatron without actually seeing the information on the Voyager disk for himself.

You can't have it both ways. It's gotta be one or the other. And to be perfectly honest, we have far more reason to trust Dinobot then he has to trust Megaron.

Megatron is a know liar. Dinobot is not.

Megatron would have actually been speaking to him directly. Dinobot wasn't actually speaking to anyone.

Megatron may of had reasons to lie about his plans, we really don't know how he convinced anyone to join him. Dinobot had no reason to lie since there's no one around to tell the lie to.

You can't just dismiss something because it doesn't fit your own beliefs. Unless you can actually provide evidence that he's never seen what's on the Vok disk then your claim is BS. You need to quit cherry picking only what supports your beliefs and ignoring evidence that proves your wrong.

You're right... that was a poor choice of wording on my part. Though it still doesn't explain why he would agree to help Megatron.
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I don't know how you can call it clearly conflicted when it took 26 episodes to show any conflict. He seemed pretty confident that Megatron's plan not just COULD work but WILL work. He'd have to be confident in the plan otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to it.

Being as conflicted as he was in this episode way back then, well let me put it this way. If he never goes on the mission in the first place then he go about his life believing that his choices actually matter. If he's predestined or whatever he'd never know it. The only way he could find that out is by going with Megatron. So this would mean that the entire series Dinobot has been planning to either change the future or kill himself. Which would mean that this speech should of happened much sooner. Yet we're only just now finding out about this?

Even if Dinobot did agree to help Megatron why was he so pissed in the first episode that Megatron lead them to the wrong planet? Considering how conflicted he was about the whole mission supposedly he should of been relieved not angry. The fact that he was as angry as he was about being lead to the wrong planet that doesn't show any sign of doubt, it shows confidence that their mission would have succeeded if they didn't crash on some unknown alien planet.

It doesn't really make any logical sense to join a mission you don't fully believe in. It does however make sense that something can happen during a mission that makes you start doubting it. I don't think Dinobot was in doubt in the beginning. That doesn't make sense. There for something must have triggered his doubt. Something like seeing his own death.

I never thought you were in full agreement with what others have said but it does appear as if you agree with most of what Sparky Prime has been saying as well. It's possible I'm misunderstanding you but lets see what the rest of your post has to say.

That's not what happens in the show though.

However that being said, I would be inclined to agree with you. For one thing I don't think that it's possible to actually erase one future and create another. If you look at the color coded alternate time lines again, according to the way the show works the green time line doesn't exist anymore. However I think that if time travel were actually possible that the green time line would exist but in an alternate universe. My thinking is that if the green time line doesn't exist then the time travelers from that future can't exist anymore either. It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense why being displaced some how prevents you forgetting the green time line. I mean if the information on the disks can be altered then so can the information you remember. The disks are also displaced so of being displaced from time prevents you from forgetting the green time line then how do the green disks turn into blue or red disks. Shouldn't they be protected from alteration due to temporal displacement as well?

This is some kind of paradox... I'm sure there's a name for this specific type of paradox but I can't think of it right now. Anyway it's a commonly used thing in a lot of sci-fi including Beast Wars so weather I agree with it or not isn't really relevant right now. We kind of just have to accept it as it is not the way we think it should be. It's an interesting topic though and I mentioned this in another thread. I was kinda hoping you'd PM so we could continue that discussion but it doesn't seem like you ever got my message before all the posts got deleted.

I don't think I ever mentioned that in this debate. I have mentioned it but I'm pretty sure that was a different discussion. I think that's actually the same one I just referenced where all our posts got deleted.

That's entirely different from what we see in Beast Wars so not sure how that's relevant. Beast Wars seems to work more like Back to the Future where characters can still remember the unaltered history but photos and news papers brought through time alter to show the new history as it changes.

No I got that but Megatron didn't record the new photo. Watch that scene again. Megatron says "This disk contains images recorded in the future. Well one future anyway." As soon as Rampage destroyed the mountain the picture began to flicker and changed so that it was destroyed. The photo was recorded in the future, it already existed on the disk. It was altered because of the change to history.

Megatron couldn't have taken the photo himself and put it on the disk for two reasons. 1. The smoke was still clearing so Megatron never had time to take a photo. 2. If you notice the seasons have also changed, the mountain top had snow on it during the Beast Wars but not in the future when the photo was taken. Even after the mountain was destroyed there's still some visible snow... not sure how there's still snow after Rampage surely would have caused several avalanches clearing it but some how it's still there. The mountain in the photo however was clearly taken some time in the summer because there's no snow in either version of the picture.

Plus the whole point of destroying that mountain was to prove that the future could be altered. It was a test. And a successful. Why else would he want to destroy a mountain? Why would he be recording new information while in the past? It would already be recorded in the future, there's no reason for him to do that.

Never said that has always been the case in sci-fi. It is the case in a lot of sci-fi, and in Beast Wars specifically which is what we're talking about right now. But no it's not always the case every single time.

Some times it is a causality loop paradox, I've seen that in a lot of science fiction as well but it's not really relevant to the conversation because that's not what we're dealing with right now. Dinobot does seem to think it might be when he gives this speech but nothing in the show supports that it is. That's the only reason I mentioned it at all is because Dinobot thinks it might be but I'm not going to compare with other science fictions because there isn't really anything in Beast Wars that actually demonstrates a causality loop.

Yeah, we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about Beast Wars. If you want to continue our whole time travel discussion from the previous thread private message me. If it's not relevant to Beast Wars then it doesn't belong in this thread. I only want to discuss time travel as it's shown in this series. Any other time travel theories you might have should go to private message. I would like to continue that conversation just not here. Wrong place for that.

Same thing. There's no addition information, it's altered information. It already existed in 2017 before we went to the past. The information is being altered along with the future. If the information doesn't exist until 2020 then we couldn't of had it in 2017.

There's no information to be gathered, it's already been gathered. You brought it with you before you even went to the past. The information is being altered not gathered. You're not recording new information, you're changing history which causes different information to be recorded in the new future which in turn changes what information you brought with you. You're only using that information to check how the future has been altered but you aren't adding anything to it.

Have you not seen Back to the Future? In the first movie when Marty goes to the past he has a photo of him and his siblings. When he accidentally prevents his parents from ever meeting him and his siblings begin to disappear from the photo. Marty himself eventually starts vanishing as well. He basically spends the entire movie trying to get his parents back together. He doesn't disappear right away because there's a small window between when his parents met and when they had their first kiss where it's still possible to get them together. The future still changes though because in the original history his dad is a dweeb and the only reason that his mom liked him was because her dad hit him with his car. In other words she just felt sorry for him and if it wasn't for that event she never would have even noticed he existed. In the altered time line Marty saved his father from that car accident and instead he was the one hit by his grandpa's car. Because of this his mom falls in love with him instead of his dad... Yeah I know that's gross but keep in mind she doesn't know Marty is her son and he didn't intentionally take his father's place. He didn't realize till later that saving his dad would prevent him from being born, he just saw a guy who was about to get hit by a car and saved him without thinking. Anyway... Marty has to coach his dad to help him ask out his mom so that they can go to this dance together where they're suppose to kiss for the first time. That would set their history back on the right path. However in doing so, he also changed the personality of his father in the future. He went from being the same dweeb with no self confidence that he was in high school to actually being a successful Science Fiction writer. Oh yeah I forgot to mention that part. In the original time line he wrote science fiction but didn't think his stories were any good and never let anyone read them. Marty didn't even know he did anything creative. At some point he just gave up on it and I think he was accountant or something boring like that. In the new time line he's actually a published author.

Marty himself has no memory of the new history. He actually returns to the new future thinking a car got wrecked which happened because Biff borrowed it and was driving drunk but his dad in this new time would never allow Biff to do that and the wreck never happens. Him and Biff kind of switch roles in a way due to the history change. Though Marty's dad isn't the jerk that Biff was, he's just confident enough to stand up for himself if he needs to not constantly terrorizing. And Biff isn't the dweeb that Marty's dad was, he's just kinda submissive.

Anyway... the only recorded history that changes is the photo of his family. He still remembers his brother and sister even when they're no longer in the picture but the picture changes.

The same thing happens in Beast Wars. The picture changes. They still remember the original history but the recorded history itself is now different.

I don't really understand how that works or why that works but that's what we're shown so that's what we're going with.

They must be, there's just too many similarities for it to only be a coincidence. I think they are intentional references. Beast Wars has several non-transformers references in it. Hamlet, Star Trek, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (actually the reference is from one of the sequels, I want to say Mostly Harmless or So Long and Thanks for All the Fish. It's been a while since I've read them), I'm pretty sure that there are also references to other Shakespeare plays beside Hamlet. Most of them are from Hamlet but I think there was at least one that was from an entirely different play. I want to say King Lear but I might just be thinking of when I was King Lear. I think something might be seriously wrong with my memory when I'm not even entirely sure if I'm thinking of Dinobot or myself...

 

I won't answer your question, as I have no obligation to explain your actions. Sparky Prime corroborated my statements and TF Wiki describes the scene in their synopsis of Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1), including screenshots and a full quote of Dinobot’s speech. The video you posted doesn’t mention anywhere the scene is from Code of Hero. And of course, I rewatched the actual episode to eliminate any shred of doubt. The scene in which Dinobot contemplates the future with both Golden Disks in his grasp is from Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1). This is simply not up for debate.

See above.

I said “after”, not “immediately after”, but I digress. Grasping at straws doesn’t invalidate the point.

Don’t insult me. Even in the event I misused a word, that’s no excuse to be disrespectful. And again, you’re not disproving my other statements by arguing semantics.

That’s conjecture. As far as I know, the moment when Dinobot first joined Megatron’s crew was never shown in fiction. We never saw what was on Dinobot’s mind at the time. Therefore, we can only guess the exact circumstances based on the events of the show, and there are multiple possibilities. You’re entitled to your interpretation, but that doesn’t make it fact.

Completely inaccurate, Dinobot never even looked at the moon in Aftermath. When he first appeared in the episode, he almost immediately tried claiming leadership of the Maximals, but Rhinox shut him up. He spent the rest of the episode assisting Rhinox’s efforts to reboot Sentinel and fighting Inferno, with no hint whatsoever of the moon's significance. The first time Dinobot was seen focusing on the moon was in Coming of the Fuzors (Part 1), and at that point, he was already on his way to the Darksyde to steal the Golden Disks.

 

I didn't ignore the middle of the quote at all, nor have I twisted the quote in any way. I only bolded those particular parts of the quote to illustrate the point of the quote you are failing to understand. I even talked about how the "then my demise is but moments" part of it fits into what he's actually saying when I explained what he's saying here. Again:

If Dinobot confirms the future is predetermined, then his death will come moments after that because "For I, I could not live if not the master of my fate."

I have not rewritten anything. I've only pointed out what the quote literally says. And you've actually already pointed out an example from the series as how they test the theory. When Megatron has Rampage destroy the mountain top with the image of it from the disk for comparison. In seeing the image change, it proved the future can be altered. Dinobot watched that whole scene unfold.

No it's not. "Coming of the Fuzors, part 1" has this scene where Waspinator looks up at the moon and says: "One moon now. Hrmm... Those markings... Ah! Waspinator knows!" And then flies back into the base for the disks. That's the first time in the series that they realize they're on Earth.

Who is to say he didn't always question it? He may have always believed in the mission, but still questioned if it was possible.

All I've done is point out what the speech literally says with out the Shakespearean flair. Meanwhile, you've only been focused on the mere fact that he mentions his death 3 times in the speech, while insisting that only makes sense to you if his death is on the disk. It's not, because that's not at all what he's saying. You're misinterpreting the speech.

That is not what I'm saying. You claimed there are tons of reasons Dinobot's death could have ended up on the Golden Disk and then suggested several ideas. I'm saying you can't just make up some explanation like that if it isn't supported by the series itself.

And now you're claiming this to be a fact, when it is not. There is no such message about Dinobot's death on the Golden Disk.

No I didn't. You completely failed to understand what I was saying and why I pointed out the other quote as an example to back up what I was saying.

One line when the character doesn't know what's actually on the disk is not a reliable indication of anything. Again, it's likely he just worded it that way to be poetic given the Shakespearean nature of the speech in the first place and generalizing the both disks together. It's not meant to be taken literally like you believe.

I fully understand many words have more than one meaning. But that still doesn't mean that inorganic means it's man made.

First you say coal was never alive then you point out how wikipedia says it was made from plant matter? Granted wikipedia is not a reliable source, but it's not wrong. Coal is made from the remains of prehistoric vegetation. Any website about the formation of coal will tell you that.

I've never said that.

The Formation of Fossils

"As the encased bones decay, minerals seep in replacing the organic material cell by cell in a process called "petrification." Alternatively the bones may completely decay leaving a cast of the organism. The void left behind may then fill with minerals making a stone replica of the organism."

I'm not an expert about the Titanic, they are. So yeah I'm going to trust them over my own uninformed views. But that doesn't mean I still can't find it hard to believe.

Yes context matters, and in this you're ignoring it completely. Titanic is a wreck, there are still two large sections of it sitting on the bottom of the ocean. The front half in-particular is still recognizable. But I'm talking about what's left of them falling apart to illustrate how it wont last forever to explain why they wouldn't be able to find any debris left over from the Beast Wars.

Again, I pointed it out to illustrate a real world example to show any debris left over after the Beast Wars would likely not survive a few million years for someone to discover it.

That's ridiculous to claim they aren't scientists just because you don't think they've shown results or haven't compared it to another ship wreck. Another ship isn't going meet the exact same conditions as the Titanic, so that data would be inherently flawed.

The back half of the Axalon ended up at the bottom of a very deep lake. The front half they put in an ACTIVE volcano. The remains of the Predacons ship, which was obliterated by Tigerhawk's arrival, is in the middle of a lava field. These are not locations where things would last.

That's not how he was holding the sword. And if he's praying as you suggest that doesn't explain why he starts shaking when and then throws the sword across the room.

That's the point. He was about to stab himself with the sword.

Of course his arms are close to his body with the sword ALREADY stabbed all the way THROUGH his body. The difference is Dinobot didn't actually go through with it. He was preparing to stab himself with the sword.

Ever seen "The Last Samurai"? There is a scene where a guy kills himself in exactly this way. They don't have to have their arms fully extended to stab themselves like you seem to think.

Because he's only just now realized they've been on Earth the whole time.

A predestination paradox means certain things must happen from a time travel event for it to have happened in the first place. That doesn't mean that history couldn't be altered in other ways as well outside of the paradox. After all, time travel is just a theoretical concept.

I've never seen Doctor Who actually. And Beast Wars does support this idea, given we have some clear examples of it in the series as I've already pointed out.

What of the scene transition? It takes time for him to get to the hill top. That doesn't mean he stopped along the way.

No it doesn't. He's questioning if the future can be changed or not. He doesn't need to have seen the information to question that.

How do you know he did?

I specifically mentioned Dinobot's tail weapon didn't have any disc player built into it from what we ever see and with how large the thing is, it's not likely he could have used it to play the record.

No I didn't. Those are two completely different circumstances, one within the context of the series between two characters, while the other is outside the context of the series, between what the audience knows and the character. We have no reason to believe Dinobot is being literal about both disks being a record of the future, nor do we see that actually knows what on the Vok disk at all. There's also the fact they had to use the Golden Disk to get to Earth in the first place, given Beast Wars establishes Earth has been classified and off limits. Which would confirm Megatron was right about the information on it.

The Disk is said to tell the location of a large Energon deposit. It's likely that's why the Predacons stole it in the first place and only after stealing it discovered the message from G1 Megatron.

I'm not using my claim as evidence unto itself. I'm pointing out nothing in the series actually shows us or tells us the Vok disk has information on it from the future. At least nothing beyond Dinobot's poetic line while he's generalizing talking about both disks, which we have no reason to believe he's seen any the information of for himself.

What reason would Dinobot have not to trust Megatron?

I'm not dismissing or cherry picking anything. You're trying to use an absence of evidence as evidence for something not supported by the series. You can't just make up explanations for something that doesn't happen in the series.

They didn't know they were on Earth for 26 episodes. The conflict Dinobot felt about the plan was irrelevant so long as he didn't know they'd actually been on Earth the whole time. But even at the end of his speech, he still says he will know the truth about whether or not history can be altered. Whether or not the plan would work, he felt it was worth taking the chance.

 

Guys, you are never going to get Saber to admit he is wrong or even direct him towards a differentiated pathway of thinking.

He is ALWAYS right. Always. Even if you have factual evidence that he is not, those facts are wrong and he is correct.

Always.

 

That wasn't an insult just an observation. You were only off by one and lots of people make the same mistake. It's not that big of a deal, sorry if I made you feel like it was. Also I wasn't trying to disprove your other statements... not at that point anyway. I was only disproving the one statement that I was actually responding to at that point. I couldn't use that to disprove other statements. Just because you slipped up and said one thing wrong doesn't mean everything was wrong.

The bold is exactly what I was doing in the first place. Also while we've never seen the exact moment that Dinobot joined Megatron we have seen him in a prequel to Beast Wars and there's never any evidence that he always felt the way he does in this episode.

You guys are the ones asserting facts that can't be proven. I think more specifically it was Sparky who made the claim that Dinobot was always like this. So perhaps you should be talking to him.

The moon was already gone in Aftermath, you're telling me that entire episode Dinobot never noticed that? They notice that there's two moons immediately after crashing there. One of the moons turns out to be a planet buster, it gets destroyed, and then takes two episodes for anyone to notice? Or are you saying that the Planet Buster was still there in Aftermath? So then how did they destroy it? Cause as I recall the Planet Buster was destroyed by Optimus Primal in the Stasis Pod that Tarantulas modified to escape the planet. The resulting explosion from the Planet Buster's destruction is what created the energy wave that created the Transmetals. And Dinobot should of immediately noticed that there's only one moon the first time he goes anywhere outside the Axalon.

You have and I'll show you again.

Look this is the actual quote as it's actually written.

"For if, the future is indeed imutably foretold, then my demise is but moments from the confirmation"

This is how the quote would look based on your interpretation.

"For if I confirm the future is indeed imutably foretold, then my demise is but moments after"

In order to get to your interpretation twisting the words around is required to make it actually make sense that way. That's not what it says. What it actually says is that his death would confirm it not that he'll kill himself if it's confirmed. You are twisting it and getting the whole thing backwards. The death part comes first, that's the confirmation, it's not confirm and then die.

Not literally but you might as well have.

Nope, that's what I did.

Yes but that hasn't happened yet when Dinobot makes that speech. Also destroying a mountain isn't something Dinobot would do himself to test it. Partly because his sense of honor he'd never think to himself "I think we should go destroy a mountain today" where as Megatron is exactly the type who would do that but mostly because he has melee weapons so how is suppose to destroy a mountain with a sword and a spinning thing. Even if by some chance he would do that, he just doesn't have the fire power.

That's Waspinator not Dinobot. He's an idiot. It really doesn't surprise me at all it took him that long to notice. Dinobot is much more intelligent.... as I'm saying this all I can think about is the fact that they're both Scott McNeil and I'm just imagining him saying "I refuse to believe that I'm much more intelligent than myself."

Because there's no evidence of him ever questioning the mission before this. Nothing in the series supports it. You can even look at the Theft of the Golden Disk, that doesn't support it. There is no evidence that he ever felt this way before this episode.

No, all you've done is take things out of context and warp things to fit an interpretation of a single sentence that doesn't even fit with the rest of the speech.

Wrong again. That is ONE OF THE THINGS not THE ONLY THING. Once again you're taking things out of context. To put this simply, when I wrote my original analysis of the entire speech, I used the ENTIRE SPEECH. When you wrote your analysis of the speech, you used A SINGLE SENTENCE and decided that was enough to understand the whole speech.

I don't want to keep having to write the entire analysis along with the entire speech in every post. So I'm basically only repeating the parts that are relevant to what you're saying but those fractions are not all I'm focusing on, they're what you're focusing on. All I'm seeing from you is literally just one sentence taken out of context and the rest of the speech being warped beyond all recognition until it fits your interpretation of that sentence.

That is what you're saying. You just contradicted yourself. How is that not what you said? You literally just said it again after claiming not to have said that.

You just started this sentence with AND suggesting that there was a previous fact statement before this so again, you're making the very claim that you just denied making.

Also, you're stating a fact that no such message exists with zero evidence to back it up. My claim is supported by dialog within the show. Your claim is supported by nothing. Unless you can provide a reason not to trust the dialog which specifically states that the information does exist, then it is a fact.

SaberPrime: Nope, I'm making assumptions that ARE supported by the series. If they weren't supported then that would mean the Beast Wars characters aren't from the future. The Golden Disks are not from the future. And Dinobot did not die in Code of Hero. Except all that stuff is true which means the series does support it.


SparkyPrime: Claiming someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk, such as Beast Machines Cheetor sending a message back in time, is not something that is supported by the series.

Yes you did.

No I understood perfectly...

You said this "is not something that is supported by the series." about this "Claiming someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk, such as Beast Machines Cheetor sending a message back in time"

I never said this "Nope, I'm making assumptions that ARE supported by the series." about this. "Claiming someone somehow recorded Dinobot's death on the disk, such as Beast Machines Cheetor sending a message back in time"

I was talking about this "If they weren't supported then that would mean the Beast Wars characters aren't from the future. The Golden Disks are not from the future. And Dinobot did not die in Code of Hero. Except all that stuff is true which means the series does support it." but you tried to make it sound as if the bold statement went with an entirely different comment that I wasn't even talking about at the time.

That is by definition misquoting and taking what I said out of context. You are in fact misrepresenting what I'm saying. You're doing the same thing with the Dinobot/Hamlet speech. All you seem to do is twist words around. It's the main reason why I really don't like talking to you. I'm just never really sure if you're doing it intentionally or if you're just suffering from some form of dyslexia and can't help it. I could forgive you and try to look passed it if it was a learning disability but if it's intentional then I'm going to end up adding you to my ignore list.

I'm just going to stop you right there. He says he does know, that's the whole point of that one line. That means that the series supports that line to be true.

You're the one making a claim that isn't supported by the series. You claim Dinobot doesn't know what's actually on the disk but you have zero evidence to support it.

Dinobot claims he does know and there is zero reason why he would make such a claim if it was not true.

At this point it is up to YOU to provide evidence to prove your claim. So far all you have provided is a contradictory argument and the claim itself neither of which are actual evidence to prove your claim.

You can not dismiss that line without first PROVING that it isn't true. Unless you can actually PROVE your claim then that line will be accepted as fact not your BS claim of nonsense.

There is zero reason why Dinobot's dialog should be considered unreliable. You can not just say it's not reliable, you must explain why. Until you can do that, his dialog is fact.

If you understood that you wouldn't be saying that.

Did you miss the part where I explained why I think plants shouldn't be classified as living things?

Not only have you said that but you've said it in at least three different topics that I know of multiple times. I believe all of those posts were deleted from the other two threads but I could go back and quote every time you've mentioned it in this thread if you want proof.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I fully understand that you're trying to use the supposedly rapidly decomposition of the Titanic to prove that debris left from the Beast Wars wouldn't exist anymore. That's not the point.

I never claimed it would last forever. No one has ever said that. The point is that things do not actually decay that quickly. The Ark is still there 4 million years in the future. You keep ignoring this fact. We have whole museums full of things that are over 6 BILLION years old. You keep ignoring this fact.

You want to use one article about the Titanic, an article written by quacks who are no more experts than you or I, which claims the ridiculously quick guess of 20 years for the Titanic to be nothing but a rust stain on the bottom of the ocean. Think about that for a moment... that is such a small number in comparison with the total amount of time it actually takes something to decay that a fraction calculator came up with 0% as in there no chance that the Titanic will decay in 20 years. In fact I kept adding zeros until it came up with a percent above 0, took 200,000 years to come up with a 3% chance of the Titanic being completely decomposed. Remember the oldest things still around today are over 6 billion years old. Not everything decays all at the same rate but that's why I'm calculating a percent for the likelihood of decay in that amount of time, and anything less than 200,000 years, there's no chance that could happen. Even after that amount of time with that 3% chance there won't be a Titanic anymore, there's also a 97% chance that it still will be there.

All this being said, there's also still the fact that the gawd damn Ark is 4 million years old and survives perfectly intact. If the Debris from the Beast Wars would be dust in 4 million years then how did the Ark survive in the same amount time with no damage at all?

You seem to think that the Debris from the Beast Wars is just going to magically disappear. Not decay, because decaying would actually require more time to do, but just magically vanish without a trace for no reason.

That in no way answered my question. And also it doesn't illustrate your point at all because of reasons I've already explained above.

So much wrong with such a short little quote.

"That's ridiculous to claim"

No it's not, that's a claim that anyone who understands even the very basics of how science works would make.

"they aren't scientists just because you don't think they've shown results or haven't compared it to another ship wreck."

What I think has nothing to do with it. It's a fact that in order to do any kind of scientific study you must have multiple subjects, you have to actually show your research, it has to be repeatable, that's how science actually works. Looking at one thing and making a claim about it without any evidence what so ever has nothing to do with science. These idiots are no more experts about the Titanic than we are. Any idiot can do what they did. It doesn't take a scientist to look at the Titanic and pull a random number of your ass. That would be like me saying Galvatron II has 42 years to live, you have 23 years to live, Prime Ultra has 11 years to live, Shakespearean Saurian has 8 years to live, and Split Lip has 19 years to live. I'm not a doctor, I'm not qualified to make any of those claims, I'm just pulling random numbers out of my ass. That's all those so called scientists are doing.

"Another ship isn't going meet the exact same conditions as the Titanic"

You're right but that's why they would need multiple samples so that they could compare each one and then come up with a rough estimate based on those findings.

"so that data would be inherently flawed."

Not exactly. As I explained above it would only be a rough estimate at best. However even if they can't replicate those exact conditions, they would have accounted for those variables as much as they possibly can so that their guess is as accurate as possible. Again, this is why they have multiple samples, so that they can compare as many of these variables as possible before coming to any sort of conclusion.

Just to give you an example of how a real scientific study works. When they're testing a new drug, they could have anywhere between 30 to 100 test subjects. Each subject could report very different results. Different things could effect those results such as other medications they may be taking. They'll try to figure out why this guy developed a rash while this guy didn't.

Now imagine trying to test out a new drug with only ONE test subject. This one guy takes the drug, everything seems fine. The drug gets mass produced and when other people take the same drug, guess what's going to happen. Most likely because it wasn't tested with any other subjects, people are going to suffer from a variety of different side effects that the drug manufacturer didn't know about because they only tested it on one person. This is not science, this is just pure stupidity.

Also considering their one test subject hasn't even shown results yet this is more like giving an experimental drug to a cancer patient and then claiming it's going to cure their cancer within the next two weeks. It's never been tested before, there's no way of knowing that. That's not in any way a scientific study, that's just making a baseless claim based on nothing.

The Axalon wasn't torn in half, it was knocked off a cliff. It's in pieces at the bottom of a canyon. Some pieces were salvaged and moved to the Ark. The Maximals set up a new base literally right outside the Ark. The Autobots and Decepticons would have to walked right passed the Maximals equipment when they wake up in 4 million years.

The Ark is in a volcano. That volcano erupts 4 million years later which is what triggers the Autobots and Decepticons inside to wake up. It's survived just fine in that location so what the hell is wrong with the Axalon that it can't survive 4 million years in a much safer location at the bottom of a canyon? The Ark can survive inside of a volcano but the Darksyde can't? Is the Darksyde's volcano some how 4 million times hotter than the Ark's volcano?

These aren't locations where organic things would last, and if they were actually inside the lava then being made of metal wouldn't make much of a difference but just being near it they seem to survive just fine.

That is how he was holding the sword. Also... did you not read anything I said after that? I really don't want to repeat that part because it's kinda off topic, it gets way too serious for a discussion about a cartoon, and I really don't like talking about this, but I have a suspicions about something and making sure you see this is way more important than anything we're discussing right now.

"However the shaking that occurs. That's kind of unmistakable as anything else... especially when I've been there. And I'm a little concerned that you noticed that. I don't think it's super obvious, especially with the way the scene is framed why he's shaking unless you've done that before.

Like I said in the first part, it kinda just looks like he's praying because he's on his knees, that's a classic stance for a warrior to to pray. However the shaking and sudden burst of anger doesn't fit with that. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion most people should come to is that he's praying. There's no reason you should think that was a suicide attempt unless you or someone you know has tried to do that.

With that being said... this conversation just got real... I wasn't really expecting to actually discuss serious issues in a topic about a cartoon. I'm not even really entirely comfortable discussing this right now. However I will leave this here in case anyone needs it.

Call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
1-800-273-8255

If anyone is thinking of suicide right now please call that number."

I know that, that's no where near the point I was making. I was saying that he couldn't have been holding the sword the way you suggest without killing himself. The sword is too long to be pointed at him without going threw him.

That's the point. Dinobot didn't got through with it but his arms are in the exact same position as if he did which means the sword could not be pointed at himself.

No I haven't and now you seem to be the one who's forgotten that Dinobot doesn't go through with it.

Also I just looked up that scene. The guy you're talking about doesn't use a sword, he's holding a dagger. Much shorter blade which is why he doesn't need to extend his arms all the way. Also there's another dude with a sword who chops his head off immediately after stabbing himself. That seems excessive. I mean the guy probably would of lived for a while after stabbing himself until he eventually bleed to death. Having his head chopped off would of made it a lot quicker but like why both?

No, that's irrelevant. All that means is that they can continue with their original mission. That doesn't answer the question about why Dinobot is suddenly questioning that mission. He doesn't need to be on Earth to ask these questions, they would always been relevant regardless of what planet he's on.

Let me explain this a different way. In real life, where Time Travel doesn't actually exist, people have been asking those very same questions all through out history with no way of answering them. Some people think things are just predestined to happen and we don't actually have any free will, I don't personally agree with that but many people think that. Personally I don't understand how that's even a question at all, it seems obvious to me that we have free will. Now Dinobot is asking the same thing, is history predestined, though unlike in real life he actually has a way to find an answer.

I'm not asking about the finding an answer part. I'm only asking about the question part which doesn't require being on Earth to ask.

I'm going to have break this apart.

"A predestination paradox means certain things must happen from a time travel event for it to have happened in the first place."

Exactly.

"That doesn't mean that history couldn't be altered in other ways as well"

Yes it does.... you really should of just stopped talking after that first sentence, you were doing so good till you went and contradicted yourself.

Look, if something must happen in order for the paradox to work then how are you suppose to change anything? A change in history would break the time loop and then it wouldn't be a predestination paradox anymore.

Let me give you an example. The Doctor's TARDIS merges with an alternate version of his TARDIS from the past. The 10th Doctors know how to fix this problem because he's already lived through it and saw himself fix it. The 5th Doctor is frantically trying to find a solution until he sees 10 solve the problem. This is a predestination Paradox. How does the Doctor actually know what to do, he learned from himself. If anything in this loop to to be altered then the loop couldn't happen. You can't stop 5 from seeing 10 fix the problem otherwise in his future when he is 10 he won't know what to do.

"outside of the paradox."

The problem with that statement is that in order to be outside the paradox, it would have to take place outside the time loop circle. The paradox which is a circle extends from the beginning of Beast Wars till the beginning of Beast Machines. Nothing inside that circle can ever be altered. Everything that happens during the show would take place inside the circle which means in order for them to be doing it in the past they had to have already done it in the future. If they already did it then the mountain in the photo would already be destroyed.

"After all, time travel is just a theoretical concept."

That's true for us but we're discussing Time Travel as it was presented in Beast Wars. In the context of the show it's not theoretical, it's actually a thing that exists within their universe. Like I told Prime Ultra we're not discussing time travel theory right now, we're only discussing time travel as it was present to us in this series. In Beast Wars there's no evidence of a time loop.

What have you pointed out from Beast Wars that supports the idea? Besides the moon because it's quite possible that the Vok are also from the future and that the moon wasn't suppose to be there either.

Also because you said you never seen I'm going to further explain how the concept is suppose to work.

The idea in Doctor Who that some things can be changed and others are fixed points. The difference between that and Beast Wars is that the Doctor is constantly traveling to different time periods so like the example I gave before is a fixed point that can not change. However anything before or after can. A singe point in time like the Beast Wars can't be both altered and fixed as the two things contradict each other.

However, there is kind of an example from Doctor Who that would kind of allow for both. The Time War. It was a fixed point, there wasn't suppose to be any way of changing it. In the original history, the War Doctor was suppose to be alone, he was suppose to destroy Gallifrey ending the Time War. He was suppose to be the last survivor. That's supposedly how it all went down. However what actually happens is that there were three Doctors and they didn't destroy Gallifrey, they saved it by hiding it away inside of some kind of little cube thing, it's basically in a pocket universe. It still disappears making it seem as if the planet had been destroyed and the War Doctor can't remember any of it, he still thinks that history happened the original way but it never actually did. Technically speaking it's his memory that was altered not time. And his memory was altered to reflect a time line that never actually happened.

It's the only way that the events he remembers having happened could still appear to happen without actually happening. Basically this would mean that in Beast Wars the photo would not change, it would be destroyed already before Rampage destroyed it but their memories of the photo would change so that they think they altered history when actually the mountain was always going to be destroyed.

"It takes time for him to get to the hill top."

That's exactly my point. You said that he had no time to look at the disks. If that's the case then how did he get to the hill top?

"That doesn't mean he stopped along the way."

Again who said anything about stopping. He could of looked at the disks right there on that hill top. He's clearly been there for a while. He must of done SOMETHING with the disks by this by this point.

No, but he does have to look at the information to confirm an answer. What the hell is he talking about confirming if he hasn't actually looked at anything?

I don't but that's not the point. You assume that he had to stop some place to look at the disks. He could of, who the hell knows. I think he most likely looked at them on the hill top but I don't know that. All I know is that he looked at them. I don't know where or when, that's not really important. At that really matters that he looked at them and I know that because he said it.

I specifically mentioned how his tail weapon had a spinning gimmick. Also the size wouldn't matter, as long as he can put the disc on there and spin the thing around. It can be too small but not too big.

Yes you did. That is the same gawd circumstance.

The circumstance is as follows.

A claim is made about a thing. That's it, that's the circumstance, everything else is irrelevant at this point.

You have to choose ONE.

A. There is no reason not to trust the claim.

B. You have to actually see the thing.

Which is it? You can't have it both way that is a contradiction, a double standard.

What you're describing here has nothing to do with the actual circumstances. What you're doing here is just trying to rationalize your double standard. That doesn't work. It's still a double standard no matter how you try to rationalize it.

We're talking about why Dinobot jointed Megatron in the first place, before any of that happens. Megatron didn't have the disk, they didn't go to Earth yet, all they had was an idea to steal the disk and Dinobot went along with it knowing the entire time Megatron was going to mess with history.

WRONG! BW Megatron says in the series that the whore reason they stole the disk in the first place was because of the message from G1 Megatron. Also they never actually intended to look for Energon deposits. The Energon was never suppose to be on Earth, the Vok put it there. No one could of known about that because the Energon didn't exist 4 million years in the future. This is another reason why it's possible that the Vok are also from the future because none of the things they put on Earth existed during G1. The Autobots and Decepticons had to make Energon, they never found or knew about any deposits being on Earth so how was the Golden Disk suppose to tell them about something that no one knew existed?

It sure seems that way you keep using the claim as if it's evidence.

Something in the series DOES actually tell us the Vok disk has information on it from the future, Dinobot literally says it in his speech.

It's still something, and here you are again using your claim as evidence. You say he's generalizing, how do you know that? How the hell is Dinobot's dialog not good enough reason to believe it? He doesn't know anyone is listening to him, he has no reason to lie. The idea that he's only generalizing is a claim you keep making to dismiss actual evidence. Prove that he's generalizing.

What reason do you have not to trust Dinobot?

Yes you are.

"I'm pointing out nothing in the series actually shows us or tells us the Vok disk has information on it from the future."

This is you making a fact claim.

"At least nothing beyond Dinobot's poetic line while he's generalizing talking about both disks, which we have no reason to believe he's seen any the information of for himself."

And this is you dismissing evidence that doesn't support that claim.

"one within the context of the series between two characters, while the other is outside the context of the series, between what the audience knows and the character. We have no reason to believe Dinobot is being literal about both disks being a record of the future, nor do we see that actually knows what on the Vok disk at all."

This is cherry picking.

No, I'm using a direct quote from the series where we're directly told that the Vok disk has information on it as evidence. That's not an absence of evidence, that's a line of dialog from the show.

You're the one who said we never see the information on the Vok disk, that's using an absence of evidence as evidence.

You can't dismiss things that were actually said in the series just because they happened off screen.

Wrong. The conflict Dinobot felt was about if the future could be changed or if it was predestined, this is totally independent of the plan itself. The plan is just a way to answer the question, it has nothing to do with why he's asking the question in the first place. As I've explained earlier in this post, philosophers have been asking the same question as far back in human history as ancient Greece, we've never had a way to actually discover a definitive answer but we still keep asking the question. This means that Dinobot does not need to be on Earth to ask it, it's always going to be relevant no matter where he is.

 

This is becoming much too long of posts, so I'm going to do some trimming here...

You left out most of what I'd said and actually ignored that the part of the quote you're talking about is indeed in there...

This is where you are mistaken. Just because he mentions his demise before saying "moments from the confirmation" doesn't mean he's saying his death is that confirmation at all. You're the one that's been missing the context and thus misinterpreting what he's actually saying because of the Shakespearean wording of the speech. You don't have to twist anything around, he's literally saying his death will come moments after confirming the if the future is predetermined, again, because he doesn't want to live if not the master of his own fate. I've only reworded it without the Shakespearean flair to better illustrate that since you aren't understanding it.

I know that's Waspinator, but the point was that's the first time in the series we see anyone realize that they've been on Earth the whole time. This is also the first time we see Dinobot look up at the moon after seeing Waspinator's reaction. And later in the chat he has with Waspinator...
Dinobot: "You saw the moon?"
Waspinator: "Yes. One moon now. Planet changed. And that means..."
Dinobot: "Earth, yes. It means Megatron was right. And the disks..."
Waspinator: "Contain information on the future. Ultimate power!"

Now also notice, Dinobot says the pural, disks here. This is before he's even stolen the disks, let alone has had a chance to see what's on either of them, indicating they're just generalizing them together despite only one actually said to be a record of the future in the series.

Why would there be any evidence before this episode? Again, he thought they were on the wrong planet, so the plan would be irrelevant, and thus had no reason to question it.

I wasn't writing my own analysis of the speech, I was pointing out your mistaken interpretation of it, which has to do with that one line in-particular.

No, your claim is based on your own mistaken interpretation, it's not a fact. No where does Dinobot say his death is written on the disk.

You personally thinking plants shouldn't be classified as living things is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is they are living things.

Go ahead, find the quotes you think I said there is no records of things in the past. Because I guarantee I've never said it.

I haven't ignored anything but there are several details you're forgetting. The Ark is shown to be protected by an energy shield in Beast Wars, and Primal points out its "die-cast construction" which makes it a lot more durable than the Maximal/Predacon ships. Even still, we see rocks have breached the hull by 1984 when the Autobots and Decepticons wake up, where there were none in Beast Wars, so it did not survive the decades completely unscathed by the elements. And I've already pointed out several times that fossils are not the original bone as you've mistakenly claimed, that they've actually been changed by groundwater and sediments.

Again, the reason I brought up the Titanic is to illustrate how relatively quickly something even made of metal can decay because of the elements on Earth. I never said the debris left over from Beast Wars would magically disappear for no reason. I've said In the millions of years it'd take humans to evolve from what we see in Beast Wars, or for the Transformers to wake up in 1984, it's not likely they'd find anything left because of the elements of the planet breaking them down in that time.

The Axalon was in fact torn in half. As the Axalon started to fall off the cliff, the forward section of the ship tore free from the back half and landed on some rocks in the lake below. Then the back half slid off the cliff and ended up sinking into the lake. The base that the Maximals set up was salvaged from the front section of the Axalon that landed on the rocks. And that was likely either destroyed when Megatron used the tractor beam on the mountain to pull out the Ark, or when the volcano eventually erupted.

Tell that to Scorponok and Terrorsaur, who died when they fell into the lava in their own ship.

There's absolutely no indication how long he'd been there for. For all we know he'd just arrived.

I've told you already. He's looking to answer if history is predetermined or not. Something he holds off on finding out, since he hides the disk under a rock for a later episode.

You'e not even close. In Beast Wars, part 1:
Megatron: "What does it matter which planet we're on? We came looking for energon, and this planet is rich with the element".

The message from G1 Megatron was a bonus for them. And Beast Wars also reconned the concept of Energon, making it its own element rather than something Transformers had to convert other energy sources into like they did in G1.

When does the show ever actually tell us the Vok disk contains information from the future? I mean, both the Maximals and Predacons had it and were able to study it for several episodes. Yet neither of them EVER mention anything about it having information from the future or take advantage of any such information like they do with the Golden Disk. Again, the only thing the show actually indicates is that it's got information about Vok technology. So how is Dinobot's line, who by all evidence in the show wouldn't know what's actually on the Vok disk, supposed to be taken as anything other than a generalization that we aren't supposed to take literally?

That's not what 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence' means. Did we ever see any information that's actually on the Vok disk? No? Then that's a fact. The only indication the show gives us about what's on the disk is merely that it has information about Vok technology.

The plan is to change history. How can Dinobot's conflict about if the future is predetermined or not be independent of that plan!? He'd have no reason to have this conflict in the first place if it were not for this plan to change history.

Still a long post, but better...