Discussion in 'Transformers Robots In Disguise / Prime Discussion' started by Mr JackatooTM, Nov 9, 2016.
Annoying, very annoying
A little late on the response. But, yeah! She's not a 14 year old girl, she's a warrior with millenia of experience in combat. She should be able to follow simple orders. She can't even be compared to Cheetor, because he was just an explorer who was also constantly told and reminded he was a kid. Same with Smokescreen, people hate Smokescreen, but he's just a kid with no to little combat experience as we are told.
True. You don't see Optimus whining because one of his friends/mentors became a warlord who destroyed their planet.
He is kind of peeved about the whole thing I think .
Considering what happened to Tailgate and Cliffjumper, I'd refused to be her partner.
Well then Jack is unlucky as hell lmao
I was annoyed with her when Prime aired. Her character was not awful but Arcee just got way to much screen time and focus at times. I just felt like she got more screen time then the rest. She defiantly appeared in the most episodes. So to me it was not so much her character but the amount of focus she got compared to the rest.
Arcee was about as multi layered as a character can get and few TFs arcs delve as deeply into a character as hers, I am baffled anyone could say with a straight face she didn't change or her arc was just the same thing over and over again. Okay long comment and character study coming.
Everyone simplifies the two partners scenario those are not the same scenario. Tailgate is Arcee's fault she got captured and it in turn resulted in him being caught and killed, that was her fault. Also that scenario involves her being horribly tortured for who knows how long which is where a lot of her PTSD comes from. Arcee blaming herself and her self loathing is what drives her up to predatory not her need for revenge.
Cliffjumper is not her fault she wasn't there he didn't ask her to help they didn't know the cons were back, there was little she could do, but she blames herself all the same, her hatred was focused on herself it wasn't Arachnid's fault tailgate died it was hers, just like cliffjumper and now it's her fault Jack's going to die. After saving Jack and finally symbolically redeeming herself, Arcee's self loathing vanishes and only now does Arcee shift into revenge.
Partners has Arcee's rage cost the Autobots a valuable ally but there's a detail that is overlooked Arcee didn't stop herself someone else did she saw the effects but the emotions are still there. Her anger at Arachnid and Starscream isn't going to disappear she was still going to kill Starscream and was stopped Arcee has to choose to spare her enemy reject her anger and she does.
Arcee is about to kill arachnid she even asks her to make it painful but Arcee refuses she chooses not to kill her Arachnid then attacks and is trapped, this happens after Arcee already decided to spare her, she made the choice and after this her need for revenge never returns.
She permanently changed after that becoming more responsible in fact she almost becomes a mentor. Arcee by the point of plus one became the heart of the team and the one who guided and comforted most characters, she most definitely grew.
She was originally cold and very closed off this was a result of her self loathing after saving Jack from Arachnid she moved beyond this and directed her rage to her partners killers she was careless and reckless letting her anger and rage drive her she tried to move beyond it but sometimes took a step back however eventually she spared Arachnid letting her anger go after that she became the most emotionally opened Autobot on the team, her anger turned to understanding and empathy. That's development in fact across nearly every TF show in over thirty years Arcee from Prime is probably one of the most developed characters in any show.
That point about Arcee blaming herself for Tailgate is possible, but there's no definite indication of it. Can you actually provide an example of where Arcee showed any signs of self-loathing or guilt over Tailgate's death? As for her sparing Airachnid, there was no indication of that. Only that she wouldn't torture the renegade 'Con. In fact, she went against order to chase after Airachnid, with no way of knowing it'd be possible to defeat the spider without killing her. Finally, whether she intended to kill Airachnid or not, she still never stopped abandoning her team, until she had gotten some form of revenge, which makes her criticism of Smokescreen not being a team player hypocritical.
"I couldn't save him I couldn't save my partner!" While being rescued from arachnid. When Jack is about to die Arcee flat out says it's her fault. Arcee doesn't let anyone get close to her. In out of the past a big part of the story is Arcee's guilt. Guilt is by it's nature self loathing. If Arcee truly didn't hate herself then why did she just give up in predatory when Arachnid had her trapped someone driven by revenge wouldn't do that. Arcee's actions in predatory do not line up with revenge as her motive. She's not driven and obsessed to kill arachnid, and everything arachnid says visibly shakes her which doesn't happen in future episodes in future episodes all it does is enrage her. Why would arachnid's words shake her like that break her like that because she thinks their true. Arcee's hatred of arachnid isn't prominent in predatory, her overwhelming guilt on the other hand most definitely, jack even says that Arcee doesn't want anyone close to her, that's a side effect of self loathing. In fact Arcee's guilt and view of herself as a failure is very obvious.
Arachnid controls the insecticons not having someone go after her is stupid if you incapacitate her the insecticons will shut down ending the threat. Arcee actually had the right idea here fighting the insecticons is useless it does no good, defeat arachnid stop the hive, this is an obvious choice smashing a bunch of insecticons isn't accomplishing anything beating arachnid instant win, how exactly is going after a bad idea. However you don't like Arcee so you don't consider this and just conclude she was stupid because well you don't like her so she must be wrong. Arcee says no and hesitates to attack which arachnid takes advantage of the message there is clear.
Arcee lecturing Smokescreen is smart why would Arcee lecture someone about being careless and letting their emotions cloud their judgement, maybe because she knows from experience where it leads and is trying to stop that. It's not hypocritical it's using her experience to try to get through to someone before they mess up like she did. Has anyone who hated that scene actually thought about how stupid it would be if Arcee knowing the potential consequences from personal experience never called smokescreen out for his actions. If you have life experiences use them if it looks like someone is making a mistake you did, do something about it. Arcee not lecturing him would've been beyond stupid ignoring any sense of logic or consistency and would've shown Arcee not even recognizing her own flaws staring her in the face, all for the sake of keeping her likable. Once again fans don't think of this because they don't like her so everything she said must be wrong and have no meaning doesn't help that most like smokescreen.
Probably half of the writing flaws people bring up in almost everything is a result of them not liking a character refusing to empathize with them and therefore not understanding any of their choices which they then use as another excuse to hate the character not realizing or being unable to admit the so called poor writing was their fault, a result of their refusal to understand a character they didn't like and thus dismissing everything they did, Miko was hit by this as well.
I have to disagree here. Why would the Insecticons shut down with out Arachnid. They aren´t just empty drones and would try to kill the Autobots anyway. This would only be a good idea if she were working for the Decepticons since they could try to recrute them. As an Autobot she only endangered her teammates by lowering there fire power by one. She also provided Megatron with more soldiers.
The Cons should probably thank her for this.
The insecticons immediately stopped attacking once arachnid was in stasis Megatron isn't there they have no leader, yes the decepticons gain control of them but for the time being they stop and go find their new master. One of these things gave Megatron a hard time, yes these ones are weaker but you don't know that instead all you know is multiple enemies that from your knowledge are capable of taking on Megatron are heading your way and the one who controls them is open to attack. Now you have no way of knowing these things will join Megatron once she's out of the picture since before that point the insecticons seemed barely sentient. Arcee doesn't know that she doesn't know what you know you can't fault a character for not knowing something they have no way of knowing.
Finally and I can't stress this point enough doing that was in character she hates Arachnid's guts and isn't going to stand around when she has a chance to take her out, that would be out of character at the time. Arcee letting her emotions get in the way of her judgement is her character flaw, it's deliberate. It's the main thing she struggles with for about half the show that's the idea she is blinded by her personal feelings and has to eventually move beyond it. Partners was the first step here, she's seen how her anger can ruin something and tries to stop others from making similar mistakes but she never actually dealt with it it was just shown to her, when she says I'm not like you and even decides to not kill her in stasis that's the moment she finally moves on, thus beginning the next phase of her character growth.
That was the whole point you can't fault a writer for doing exactly what they intended to do. Characters do backtrack Maximal no more was a massive backtrack for Dinobot, he stole the golden disk, gave it back to Megatron and stabbed the Maximals in the back for his own selfish need for glory almost resetting him to where he started. Of course that was the idea that Dinobot let his need for glory cloud his judgement betraying his honor, they took him back to his beginnings right before taking him to his end, so you can't fault them for doing exactly what they intended to do.
Same here Arcee's habit of letting her personal emotions cloud her judgement is her character flaw and a driving part of her conflict with Arachnid, you can't fault the writers for well exploring her character flaw. Crossfire was Arcee's Maximal no more where she gave into her character flaw and backtracked she was then saved by starscream of all people, look at her face after that and how she reports her situation, she's thinking. The whole incident in Crossfire sets up the resolution of this struggle where Arcee finally says no, and spares Arachnid finally leaving her revenge behind and like I said it never returned after this. You may not like her for doing it but it's not bad writing, the writers did exactly what they intended to do her whole talk with Bee is meant to end up hypocritical and empty in contrast to her conversations with Miko, smokescreen and wheeljack which do help them grow and develop and show Arcee's development as well.
First I wasn´t talking about Arcees likabillity. I was talking about taktiks. You said and I quote again:
This is not true. The Insecticons wouldn´t shut down with out Arachnid.
It sounded like Arcee abandont her team in a fight against a large number of Insecticons and you tried to explain that this would had been a good desicion. This would only be true if they had a way of controling them after Arachnid was out. Other wise they wouldn´t have a reason to stop and Arcee could dubble her list of dead partners.
To be fair though, I rewatcht the relevant parts of "Armada" for this comment and I don´t understand why you would try to justify an stupid desicion that never happend.
Arachnid wakes up the Insecticons. The Autobots detect it and send Optimus, Bee and Arcee to investigate. They see the Insecticons leave and conclude that they are going to attack Megatron. They don´t see a reason or way to stop them and recocnise Arachnid alone on the ground. They deside to get her. She calls back a hand full Insecticons to distrakt them and flees. Arcee chases after her. During the underground fight Arcee sees an open stasis pod behind Arachnid and kicks her in. At this point Optimus and Bee had won there fight as well.
She bassicly just followed her orders here. Pointing that out would had made a much better argument.
After four days, I really should get around to replying to this.
This part I can agree with, although I never said it couldn't be true. I just didn't recall there being any real evidence of it, but I'm glad to see there is.
My first instinct is to point out that Arcee disobeyed Optimus' orders, but it seems I'm remembering wrong. Admittedly, I don't think I've watched the entire episode since it first aired because, even without the problems with Arcee's character, there are still countless other things wrong with the episode. Armada is a serious contender for the worst episode of TF Prime. Still, as Lynkey pointed out, Arcee had no reason to think stopping Airachnid would stop the Insecticons. In her last Insecticon encounter, there was no controller, proving that Insecticons will attack, even without someone telling them to. Still, she was, at least, following orders, however, she rushed in without a plan, likely fueled by her need for revenge. Just a few episodes prior, she had done the exact same thing, in Crossfire and almost got herself killed. Ah, that's the one where Optimus calls out for her to stop as she does, showing she was still willing to disobey orders to seek revenge. Even if she was following orders, in Armada, when she finally beat Airachnid, it does nothing to show that Arcee had learned to stop abandoning her team, as Crossfire proves she would've gone after Airachnid, with or without Optimus' permission. This is why her lecturing Smokescreen is hypocritical, because she's expecting him to learn a lesson she was never shown to have learned.
That's not true at all. In season one, I loved Arcee. I was glad the show had a main character who wasn't Optimus or Bumblebee and I was even more happy that she had a past that motivated her, while also making her flawed. I only took issue with her in season two, when she started regressing as a character.
i think she was good character overall, but it did get real old with her being a jerk about rules to others like jack, smokescreen and bulkhead then goes all maverick everytime someone so much as mentions airachnid.
She was ok but the whole "MY PARTNER IS DEAD" mindset got annoying. Would help if she had a more gentle fun side.
Except she did learn her lesson if she didn't Arachnid would've been dead but she wasn't you can't just ignore character development because you didn't like the episode.
No she doesn't except for the fact that Arachnid controls all of the injections, what happens if you remove her, in theory it could immobilize them it's not a guarantee but it is a possibility.
Your facts are once again exaggerated Smokescreen had nothing to do with revenge or leaving his team smokescreen was about him bringing Jack knowingly into harm's way, something Arcee never did everytime Jack was in danger wasn't her fault. The other thing she lectured him about was his own ego and pride and how he wasn't taking things serious enough. None of this has anything to do with her flaws however she can relate her own personal experiences to Smokescreen and try to snap him out of his glory hound ways. This isn't being hypocritical it's using her past experiences in a way to try to teach something to another even more ridiculous it has nothing to do with her flaws.
You're entire perception is based off of false information you're the one who refuses to accept that she moved beyond her revenge so you reflect it onto a scene it has nothing to do with. You stopped liking her after two episodes and reflected it onto the rest refusing to see her growth that is your fault. Instead of complaining about her regressing analyze the situation and treat Arcee like a human being.
She spared starscream and what did that do get Bee's tcog stolen. She's understandably angry then when they decide to trust his info she argues about how often he stabs them in the back and no one listens they then arrive and conclude it was a trap by Starscream to make them wipe each other out, he betrayed them just like she said he would. So you spare this guy, he nearly destroys an organ of your friend, and then pits you against his enemies and no one would listen to you, finally the person you despise is right their. Build all this and tell me someone not just going screw it I didn't want to be here but I am so she's dead meat, makes sense. A revenge moral is pretty useless if all it does is screw you over repeatedly. After being betrayed twice the only thing Arcee was regretting was not putting that spike through his face.
So what changed this time that would drive her choice in Armada the answer is pretty simple, she gets trapped and Starscream saves her and spares her, her revenge nearly killed her and Starscream's mercy saved her. Staracream's betrayals in operation Bumblebee and Crossfire rendered partners almost pointless Arcee's regret was that she cost them a potential ally but future episodes prove he isn't an ally look how easy he worked with mech and threatened to destroy Bee's t dog, he's not an Autobot he would've backstabbed them eventually. Her mercy is useless true there's the whole space bridge thing but she's not going to be thinking that that's not who she is, she's going to remember what he did to Bee and keep thinking I spared this treacherous snake.
This time is different her revenge and anger almost kills her, both for Arachnid and Starscream and then Starscream doesn't take his revenge on her, he doesn't just let Arachnid kill her. How can you still believe in revenge after that? Crossfire did what partners couldn't it showed where her revenge led and it reminded her that her mercy to Starscream did mean something, which after operation Bumblebee and most of Crossfire she was probably starting to doubt.
I know you're saying this is never stated but that's the problem it shouldn't need to be. You're a human being you are perfectly capable of empathizing with a situation and understand a characters emotions. Arcee's not going to state this whose she going to say it to, and under what circumstances is she going to bring this up. Her rant about Starscream makes her feelings very clear she regrets sparing him. Instead of just screaming character regression look at the situation examine the past and what's happened and ask yourself how would I feel would I really still believe that not killing this guy was the right move after being betrayed by him and that betrayal hurt a friend? Empathy relate to them as you would a person imagine for a instant you were them, then judge their actions. Treat them as more than just your entertainment.
"This isn't just about Jack. Team Prime can't afford any casualties. Human or 'Bot." -Arcee: Alpha, Omega.
Arcee's anger towards Smokescreen wasn't solely because he endangered Jack. If it was, then maybe that would be fair, but she's also angry that he endangers himself. She claims she doesn't want to lose anyone else, yet has never considered how anyone would feel if she got herself killed, or how her absence would endanger the team and by extension, the entire Earth, since their defeat would lead to Decepticon conquest of the planet and the possible extermination of the human race. This is something that the show never brings up. Arcee's actions can be equally as self-destructive as Smokescreens.
Crossfire wasn't the first time Arcee acting out of anger had consequences. At the end of Partners, she cost the Autobots the information Screamer could've provided. That's something she was clearly shown reflecting upon, yet she still chased after Airachnid, seeking vengeance in Crossfire and is never shown to have reflected upon that. If she didn't learn the first time, why on Earth should we assume she learned the second time, when we weren't shown anything to indicate she had?
The show never even acknowledges that this character flaw exists. Only her desire to murder people is acknowledged, which I suppose she did get over. After all, she didn't execute Airachnid and her chasing after the spider was sanctioned by Optimus and the 'Bots, rightfully, never had a problem killing enemies in combat, as militaries need to. You want to talk about her actions outside of episodes I've previously mentioned? How about Orion Pax part 1, where she impulsively drives through a 'Con groundbridge to try and find Orion? There was no way that plan would work and the only reason she didn't die was because Megatron didn't want to risk any consequences of Orion seeing her and wanted her off the ship as quickly as possible. The show can't just provide a lucky reason why she wasn't killed, then pretend like she didn't just recklessly endanger herself at a time when the team had already lost their leader. Yes, their leader's absence caused all the 'Bots to be on edge, yet she was the only one to act out in the middle of a mission and as I've already pointed out, she continued to do so, afterwards. Yet none of this is ever acknowledged in the show. Even within the confines of Orion Pax part 1, nobody seems to care about how reckless her actions were.
Moving past Armada and the defeat of Airachnid, the loss of her partners continues to be the main thing that defines her character. Yes, realistically it makes sense that something that had such an impact on her life would be one of the most likely things to be brought up when she's involved. The problem is, when that story line was handled so badly, the audience doesn't want to be reminded of its existence. That's why it became annoying to me. I will admit, though, that some people found it annoying back during season 1, which is something I don't understand.
You are talking about "Armada" here, right.
First, why would anyone think that is a possibility? Insecticons can funktion on there own.
And second, as I said in a previus post, there were barely any Insecticons to fight them. Maybe two or three per Autobot and they went down befor Arachnid got captured. There was no need to make such a decision in the first place.
I assume you mean "Crossfire".
From tfwiki (I´m not in the mood to rewatch it):
"In a cave, Starscream pities his lot in life as he jumps for a meager scrap of energon. He is interrupted by a nearby rumbling that surprises him—it is an Insecticon, unearthing a large chunk of energon. He orders the brute to hand it over, but it attacks him, forcing him to hide. He witnesses the Insecticon bowing to another surprise—Airachnid. He makes himself known, and she makes her rogue status known, giving Starscream the idea to propose an alliance to overthrow Megatron with the help of her oversized herald. She proposes an alternative—she overthrows Megatron, and Starscream dies. She orders the Insecticon to kill him.
At the base, Ratchet receives another high frequency signal with an embedded message, again from Starscream, who promises valuable intel in exchange for medical aid. His intel proves none-too-relevant until he mentions the Insecticon, and provides Airachnid's location. Back at base, Arcee berates Ratchet and Bulkhead for letting him go again, but Optimus is confident in sparing helpless lifeforms, regardless of personal vendettas.
Airachnid contacts Megatron and proposes a challenge, which he accepts, forbidding Dreadwing to follow him. Making his way to the mine, the Decepticon leader is immediately assaulted by the Insecticon, who ignores Megatron's orders to stand down and begins to beat him down. Though he does not initially fare well, it does not take long for the former gladiator to put himself on equal footing with the beast. The Autobots bridge in, and Arcee goes for Airachnid, chasing her off into the adjoining tunnels while the other Autobots watch as Megatron triumphs over the Insecticon, tearing off its limbs and head. The Autobots surround Megatron as he falls, exhausted. Prime mulls over the idea of ending his life when suddenly, Dreadwing and a large detachment of Vehicons descend into the cavern. Prime agrees to trade the Autobots' lives for Megatron's, but once the trade is made, Megatron orders the Vehicons to attack, and departs with Dreadwing, noting his appreciation for Dreadwing's disregard of orders.
Arcee, meanwhile, follows Airachnid, but finds herself suddenly stuck in a trap. As her nemesis prepares to finish her, a missile streaks through the air and pushes Airachnid off Arcee. She escapes as Starscream—intent on payback—continues to fire. Now alone with Arcee, the Seeker recalls her decision to spare him earlier, and in returning the favor, he cuts her free from Airachnid'a trap and leaves her be rescued by the Autobots, declaring themselves even."
So going by the summery: It was not a trap. At least not for the Autobots. Arcee was angry that they helped Starscream, goes after Arachnid befor the fight starts and is saved by Starscream when she got captured.
Why would that not be suited for a revenge moral?
I would like to argue that Starscream could had become thier ally if they had been an option but that hasn´t much to do with Arcee.
I'm going to say this one more time think like a human being, they can't track the ship, so long as they can't track it their chances of getting optimus back are zero they have no idea how long Megatron will keep him alive. With that knowledge anyone who even remotely cares about their friend is going to take whatever chance they get screw the danger. Your friends in danger you let that portal close by the time you find him he might be dead, meaning this is your best chance to save him. Did you think of this?
This is a reoccurring problem a character has to be likable for anyone to even bother to understand them. In one show I watch people completely dismissed a character for being whiny this particular character's whining, crying about their friend being murdered by another friend who was forced to kill them against their will, also the person they love walks to their death presumably they survive but end up working with the person responsible they then become so self destructive to the point that they don't care if they die and they are going to and there's nothing this character can do about it. Whiny a cry baby are these fans heartless they said this character being an emotional wreck and crying quite a bit was terrible writing. Really so this character should be their witty, lovable fun self while going through complete emotional hell? That's what the audience was thinking they didn't even bother to consider if that characters emotions and reactions made sense.
This is exactly what you're doing right now you hated those moments so you can't move past them you can't remember that she did learn, that she was trying to get smokescreen to understand just what he did wrong. Nope all you see is that moment so her words have no point or value to you, you won't let her live it down and refuse to look at her perspective at all. I'll put this as simply as I can you wouldn't be thinking any of this if you were there so simply put stop looking at it from your couch and look at it like an emotional human being.
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