Any resources for filling holes in RotF's story?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by Ultimate Matt X, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. Evil_the_Nub

    Evil_the_Nub Well-Known Member

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    Your entire argument is "I don't like the way the Allspark shards work." The sliver wouldn't have worked, it creates life it doesn't restore life. It only gave Megatron an energon boost.

    Lets say that the sliver could have revived Optimus, hypothetically speaking. And somehow Sam magically knew that it would. When was he supposed to do it? Right after Optimus died and the Decepticons were shooting at him? Was he supposed to turn himself in when he was the most wanted man in the world? He didn't even get the idea that Optimus could be revived until Jetfire told him about the Matrix.
     
  2. DeathsHead

    DeathsHead Well-Known Member

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    Whilst I agree that it is resonably commonplace in films for geographical accuracy to be more than a little off (see the recent Sherlock Holmes for a staggeringly stupid re-jigging of London landmarks) it does rather come down to how much common knowledge exists in relation to what is being buggered about with - and how well the director can smooth over the cracks.

    As for finding replacement locations for cities such as NY or Shanghai (usually for financial reasons) this is irrelevant. In such situations most productions attempt to accurately re-create the real location in question; thus negating complaints that they aren't where they claim to be.
     
  3. Sgt-mike-larry

    Sgt-mike-larry Well-Known Member

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    *Facepalm*..... Do you guys even read what you type? or reply to for that matter?

    Or does the Nerd rage just take over?
     
  4. Sso02V

    Sso02V Injector Has a Posse

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    I don't know, do you? I can't even tell who you're talking to here.
     
  5. Sgt-mike-larry

    Sgt-mike-larry Well-Known Member

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    I thought that the title of this post was,

    Any resources for filling holes in RotF's story?

    People are putting up there own points of view yet everyone seems to be getting all Raged up.

    At the end of the day guys.
     

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  6. Covenant

    Covenant Mr. Roboto in Disguise

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    Is that your input to the argument? And did you win? ;) 

    Creates but does not restore?

    And is it being said that Megatron wasn't dead, and there was no resurrection? The events of the film would beg to differ.
     
  7. Sso02V

    Sso02V Injector Has a Posse

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    See, the cube shard only worked on Megatron because he was mostly dead. There's a big difference between being mostly dead, and all dead.
     
  8. Covenant

    Covenant Mr. Roboto in Disguise

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  9. davieanix

    davieanix Well-Known Member

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    Come on. Megatron was dead man. Starscream even says he was pleased to hear about his ressurrection. Not reactivation, not return, but ressurrection. Megs was dead. Even if it did act as just a boost, and he needed parts as well, that's still fine. He got 'em, why couldn't Prime? It could have been just as easily done by Sam and the Autobots in Egypt.

    My argument is that the Matrix was a pointless inclusion. You guys are acting like this was a real event or something and couldn't be revised. Obviously if I am saying that Sam should have used the AllSpark shard, then other parts of the film would have to be rewritten. I have already given a suggested scenario too. The end of the film could have played out very similar except instead of using the Matrix, get NEST and the bots over to Egypt because Sam has the shard. They could have revived Prime with it, and if you guys are so insistant of needing parts, then that would have been the point of Jetfire sacrificing himself, to ensure Optimus Prime's true survival. Not just "oh yeah, have some extra firepower".

    Even being the most wanted man on the planet didn't stop him getting around. He had 3 Autobots with him and a former secret agent. There are options he could have taken, and the film didn't present it as being too hard really.

    I'm not even sure what the arguements against this are anymore. If the shard would or wouldn't work, or if Sam knew he could use it or not? It totally would have worked, and we have proof of that, because it worked on Megatron. Done. If Sam should have known or not? Well maybe not 100%, but far out, he seems to think the key to the machine is a better idea than using something that, even in the first movie, was built up to be a source of tremendous power and life. I guess we all agree Sam is an idiot?

    If Prime wasn't able to come back to life with the shard because of the hole in his chest, then why the heck does he still have all his injuries even after the Matrix was used? See there are flaws in that logic too. It's not until the Jetfire combination that he get's completely healed from... parts. The same stuff that Megatron got after his little shard experience.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2010
  10. ChldsPlay

    ChldsPlay Well-Known Member

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    Man you make a lot of assumptions. And please, call it a splinter, and not a shard. What was used on Megatron (who is a special case regardless considering he has a combo spark/cube in his chest) was a shard and was about 10 to 15 times larger (if not even more than that) than the little splinter that Sam had. So no, we don't know it absolutely would have worked. Small mindless kitchen bots != 30 foot Semi/Optimus Prime. Sure Sam knows that the splinter can bring "life" to stupid little machines and turn them into non-thinking forms of destruction. He certainly wouldn't know how to use it, the autobots didn't know how to use it, I doubt most of the decepticons knew how to use it. He knows the CUBE is a tremendous source of power and life, that can also destroy, he really has no idea how any of it works, and certainly doesn't know what a tiny small splinter that broke off is going to do or how it would do it.

    Sure the writers could have rewritten everything, but I'm glad they didn't go with your suggestions.
     
  11. Covenant

    Covenant Mr. Roboto in Disguise

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    Talk about assumptions.
     
  12. Gingerchris

    Gingerchris Telly-headed Tyrant

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    I think the writers looked at how dead a Transformer can be and still be revived and what power the Allspark and varying sizes of shards, splinters, chips and dust might need to reverse apparent death or give life to lifeless devices and just decided it would be easier to not explain any of it.
    Besides, you start giving things like this hard rules and there's no longer an 'out' if you write yourself into a corner.
     
  13. DeathsHead

    DeathsHead Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. I don't think they looked at any of it at all, but simply used whatever device was convenient at the time, figuring (probably quite fairly) that most audiences wouldn't notice the lapses in logic.

    How would the size be of any consequence anyway? Before it neatly folded itself up into a handy football size, the cube was a vast object - so in theory Sam actually has a mahoosive great chunk of the life giving block - comparitive or not. Plus his small piece seems to behave exactly the same as the whole cube did on at least two occasions in the first film.

    Oh, and Megatron was DEAD. If he wasn't, then what in the name of F**K is going to kill him - if not the most powerful force in the Transformers universe?

    None of this suggests clever, pointed intention by the writers, just lazyness and inconsistency.
     
  14. davieanix

    davieanix Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I am assuming is Sam's knowledge, or lack of, what his "splinter" could do. Yeah in my opinion that is the route that should have been taken by the writers, because it was right there in front of them. Sam gets the knowledge of the AllSpark in his head, what more do people want? Magic dust that turns into something from the 80's movie? Talk about assumptions. You've just assumed yourself that the size actually mattered. Proof? None. Everyone else is assuming this and that.

    The Decepticon's obviously knew that jamming the piece they stole into Megatron's chest was going to bring him back. Isn't that the whole reason they want it in the first place? Jeez it's a scene in the movie.

    I really don't care if anyone liked my suggestion or not. I'm actually a fan of ROTF and not one of the haters, with the exception of what I said in my very first post. That MY opinion is that the Matrix was a stupid inclusion, and Sam already had a ressurrection tool, as we damn well saw worked on Megatron. I've backed up my arguments through scenes we see in the film and shit we have learned from actually watching the movies, and all I am getting back is everyone elses theories and assumptions about shards not working, the size mattering, Prime having a hole in his chest (which he still had anyway after the Matrix) and seriously, Megatron wasn't actually dead. Really? Really?

    Oh and DeathsHead. Spot on bro. Just lazy and bad story telling by the writers.
     
  15. Evil_the_Nub

    Evil_the_Nub Well-Known Member

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    I think the important difference is that the Decepticons repaired Megatron before they used the Allspark shard on him. They used the parts from Ze Little One to replace Megatrons damaged parts. If the Allspark alone could revive a Transformer then the Autobots would have used it to revive Jazz. If it's that easy to bring someone back from the dead then it would lose it's impact. Optimus dying wouldn't have meant anything and no one would care if anyone died in the movie.
     
  16. ChldsPlay

    ChldsPlay Well-Known Member

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    Try reading what I wrote a little better. I made suggestions, and possibilities, not assumptions. Is it set in stone that the size matters? No, but it is POSSIBLE, and it is PLAUSIBLE. That's what people do when not everything is explained in a movie, you come up with a possible plausible explanation. You assumed that because the Decepticons, or one Decepticon in particular, were able to revive Megatron with a certain piece of the cube, and because Sam saw the cube itself, and his little piece animate (I'm not sure I'd call it LIFE myself) some machines into mindless killing things that anything relating to the cube has carte blanche to just revive any Transformer. You said this was KNOWN. I, and many others, have offered up possible explanations for why it would NOT be known.

    The Dr. knew what to do with the shard on Megatron...outside of that, the only thing we KNOW the other Decepticons knew is that the shard was needed. Based on the seemingly specialized nature/knowledge of the doctor, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to guess that most Decepticons weren't exactly experts with how these things worked exactly. But their knowledge isn't nearly as important as the Autobots knowledge when discussing Prime.

    The reason people are arguing with your points is that you assume things work in a very specific way, so the fact that the writers didn't write it that way is a problem for you. If you don't want to be open to the very plausible theories people have about size, knowledge, Megatron's status (which I think the idea that he wasn't dead a bit far fetched myself - he does still have a spark/cube in him, which may or may not be a factor), then that's your choice.
     
  17. DeathsHead

    DeathsHead Well-Known Member

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    But...your theories are no more plausible than any of the other random, vague, pie-in-the-sky thinking that permeates this entire thread. None of it changes the fact that good writing means an audience is never forced into a situation that - in order to have the film maintain a reasonable internal logic - they have to sit around coming up with bullshit concepts just to keep simple, linear storyline ideas on track. The author may withhold certain information for effect, or throw out concepts that leave people debating long after leaving the cinema , but leaving unexplained gaps in the narrative or omitting details the viewer needs to make sense of what he or she is seeing is problematic.

    This isn't 'spoon feeding' or lack of an application of 'common sense' - it's how fiction is supposed to work: you give the audience (or reader) the FACTS they need to understand what's going on and why.
     
  18. Smasher

    Smasher HUNKY BEATS

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    Except that there have been people before in this forum (maybe not in this particular discussion) who didn't know that Megatron and Starscream went to a different planet to talk with The Fallen, or wanted to know how the Matrix revived Prime, or who thought it was a gaping plot hole that there were more robots in this movie than the last because we didn't actually see how we got there.
    So, while I think that some of those comments about 'spoon feeding' might not pertain to everyone who has questions, I understand their origins.

    I am not saying the Revenge of the Fallen is perfect, but I feel like sometimes people are like "So how does this Superman character fly? I think it’s a huge plothole that it's never been explained how he flies."
     
  19. DeathsHead

    DeathsHead Well-Known Member

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    I think very few people were asking questions of that nature (poor choice of comparison too, given that it is graphically explained how Superman comes to have superpowers) and actually, I think the whole Megatron-visting-the-Fallen bit was another case of too little information. I'm one of the people who, despite realising that Megatron went somewhere to have his little chat, had no clear idea of exactly to where or how far, he travelled - and I'm a Transformers fan. The film simply didn't tell the audience that, and I doubt I was alone in scratching my head somewhat. This resulted in a kind of spacial dislocation for me and lessened the impact of The Fallen's final arrival on Earth.
     
  20. Shmoptimus Prime

    Shmoptimus Prime Za Warudo!

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    I can't stand this type of arguing from fans. Clearly there's a difference between the people who WANT to like this movie, and the people who don't even want to be convinced that there is a possibility that the movie could be enjoyable.

    In other words, this is pointless because some people have tried to help with the "plot holes", but some of you reject every "theory" because you just don't WANT it to make sense.

    You just want those of us who don't let these things get to us so much to admit that the writers were assholes, the director was a hack, and we are bad people for enjoying such a pathetic attempt at film making.

    So there's no use arguing. From what I can recall, this was supposed to be a thread about helping people make sense of the film, not a thread to solidify once and for all that it is shit that's not worth enjoying.