Am I the only one who thinks that Sentinel shouldn't be a traitor.

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by DemonessQ3A, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. DemonessQ3A

    DemonessQ3A Well-Known Member

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    My top fave movies are: Lord of the Rings and Transformers.
    The former is a good movie that I like best, the latter is a movie I like most but Micheal Bay is no the type of person who can handle the mythos well.
    MB is good at giving exciting fighting actions but poor at storyline and characterization.

    About why they made Sentinel a traitor, I think is trying to give more depth to the story and the character. But the result is that the autobots story being abrupt and not coherent.

    I had a strange dream after ROTF - Optimus was lying unconcious on a pier and Denother (the Gondor regent in Return of the King) stood on Optimus with a torch in hand. When Denethor was about ti light the torch to burn up Opimtus, Pippin rushed to the pier and toppled it with unbelievable strength.

    That dream reminds me of the similarities between Sentinel and Denethor.
    (1)
    Denethor lost hope after his son Boromir's death.
    Sentinel lost his belief after aubobots' defeat (battle led by Optimus) on Cybertron
    (2)
    Denethor was Boromir and Faramir's father
    Sentinel was Optimus former boss and a fatherlike figure too
    (3)
    Denethir was finally gone mad
    Sentinel was finally turned bad

    Even Denethor was NOT a traitor. Because cutting off one's feeling about his own faction and his fellow memebers is NOT that easy.
    It's not likely that an autobot's feeling could be that shallow in comparison with a human's or an elf's.

    Many of my friends have blamed Optimus for "killing Sentinel so ruthlessly", almost fogetting Ironhide's tragic and unreasonable death. Hadn't Sentinel been a traitor in the fisrt place, Optims wouldn't kill him in that way.

    If Sentinel was mad and committed suiside in the end, that would be more like an autobot.
     
  2. T4mercustomz

    T4mercustomz Genus time! TFW2005 Supporter

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    yes
     
  3. Nachtsider

    Nachtsider Banned

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    Hah.
     
  4. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    Sentinel's "treason" was the most interesting part of DOTM, and probably the deepest attempt at characterization in the entire Bay trilogy. Sentinel isn't even really a traitor in his own eyes. He's just trying to save his people, and if that means allying with the Decepticons, so be it, they're cybertronians too. If it means killing a couple friends, so be it, what are their lives weighed against his entire race? If it means enslaving an entire sentient species and using them to rebuilt Cybertron, so be it, they're a lesser race anyways and that's what it'll take to bring the Cybertronians back to a new golden age.

    Sentinel wasn't mad, his plan was misguided, but well-planned and meticulously executed. Trying to give Sentinel an excuse for his actions besides his warped view of things just so people can feel better about Optimus Prime killing him cheapens the entire point of the character.
     
  5. einis

    einis Want some candy?

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    ^Well said.
     
  6. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Sentinel thought Optimus was the traitor.
     
  7. LacksAFace

    LacksAFace Devastator's Balls

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    "His levels are faint...he locked himself away to guard the pillars".
     
  8. caitlindevi

    caitlindevi Sculpticon

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    Moot point...he's dead now
     
  9. Overlord Balder

    Overlord Balder Voices Slugslinger!

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    That is all that needs to be said about the character, and that's what people still don't understand.

    Denethor [in the movie] was prideful fool who went insane after the death of his two sons, Sentinel was a leader of great wisdom who remained sane across his whole life, only his objectives changed.

    Point is, the characters are not similar, Sentinel Prime is pure Well-Intentioned Extremist [like Magneto or Demona from Gargoyles, in fact, he has more justification than both of them], he needs to save his race, and for such he won't let anything or anyone stop him.

    Different cases, Denethor had no objective to acomplish, he just wanted to not fight against Sauron and burn alongside his son, he was a mad sack of ham without any goal or vision.

    Sentinel, on the other hand, had an objective to acomplish: Save Cybertron and his race.

    You question if it is easy to cut ties with your friends, I could answer if it is easy to cut ties with your entire race for your friends.

    What people often forget is that Sentinel clearly showed signs of remorse along the movie [he utters "Forgive me" in a broken tone in Washington, for instance, also his last words "All I ever wanted was the survival of our race, you must understand why I had to betray you"], and he had a greater good in mind, he just had horrible ways to achieve it.

    You see, the problem is that people see Sentinel as either a Complete Monster [pretty much every Ironhide fan] of The Messiah [my dear Autovolt coleague], the point is, he is neither, he's an Anti-Villain [or a very dark Anti-Hero depending on your perspective].
     
  10. Ceasar121

    Ceasar121 Wants a Toxitron repaint!

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    This. Sentinel is one of the most well done characters in any Transformers series. I'd say he's the only really great thing about the sequels aside from the action, in addition to being probably the most well done character/villain in any Bay movie.
     
  11. Autovolt 127

    Autovolt 127 Get In The Titan, Prime!

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    Funny Enough in the Japanese dub of DOTM the guy who voiced Sentinel Prime (Nobuyuki Katsube) also did the voice of Denethor in Lord of the rings.

    Is your mind blown yet?

    Seriousily Traitorous Sentinel Prime was something I wanted to see happen in TFA so i'm glad it happened in DOTM. It's the saving grace of the film.
     
  12. TylerMirage

    TylerMirage I vawnt my berdt.

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    I honestly don't know how Sentinel's arc makes the Autobots story any less coherent or abrupt.

    And I really don't see how committing suicide is more like the Autobot-way. Suicide: killing yourself to save yourself from humiliation, pain, etc., is the coward's way out. In my opinion, an Autobot would be brave to the end. Whether that means facing death without fear, or simply facing death (*cough*Que*cough*), that's more Autobot-y than saying "Screw being a hero! I'm out of here!" *shot to the head from own gun* If they were captured by Decepticons, they would remain strong. If they were forced to live in a world where the Decepticons ruled, they would do so with honour. Killing yourself is what a Decepticon would do.

    But to answer your main inquiry, yes, I do think you're one of the few who didn't care for Sentinel's story. Not saying there's anything wrong with that. :) 

    THIS^.

    And a typical "THIS" for Balder.

    Every character is "good" in their own eyes. From one angle, Sentinel Prime is a traitor. And from a slightly different angle, so is Optimus Prime.

    And this too.
     
  13. Stockade187

    Stockade187 Decepticon Junkie

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    Exactly

    Scene:
    Sentinel pins Optimus down and explains that he's doing this for the sake of Cybertron and that one day Optimus will understand. Sentinel tells Optimus that Optimus is lucky he didn't kill him and leaves.

    People act like no one in any kind of conflict has never called a truce before. 1st non Decepticon enemy for the movie Autobots.
     
  14. AquamanOS

    AquamanOS Well-Known Member

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    The main problem with that is that Sentinel prempitively tries to kill him anyway when he has their shuttle destroyed. This is after requesting they leave in peace. That fact that Sentinel seems to have a "kill everyone who might oppose me just in case" view makes me wonder how he'd tolerate any Autobot, when nearly all of them have a personality that wouldn't support what he was doing. I mean if even the Wreckers opposed his plans, what Autobot would support him? Plus he goes back on his deal with Megatron too, and probably would have taken his forces and killed him later on. And the fact that he first made this deal when Megatron wasn't someone he could easily overpower (Megatron in TF1) suggests he was willing to condone Decepticon tyranny so long as Cybertronian's were top dog in the galaxy.

    Sentinel seemed like he was saying he was doing it for the good of them all but examining his actions suggests he had entirely selfish motivations. He wanted his golden age of Cybertron back, with them being the strongest race in the galaxy, and him being in charge, solely because he himself wanted it. And if any of his kinsmen objected, they get the rust gun. And since he didn't attempt to get anyone but Optimus to join him, and then tried to kill him anyway, in the end we'd have Sentinel the murderous dictator ruling on his throne of robot skulls.

    It makes him a good villain mind you. But anybody who thinks he's justfied and that any good would come of his actions, is either evil themself, or needs their head examined.
     
  15. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    I think it's reasonable to suppose blowing up the shuttle was either something the Decepticons insisted on (remember those guys?) or a quirk resulting from borrowing events from the cartoon. Mr. Nimoy's delivery and the expressions in the CGI character lead me to believe he was genuinely pained at his own actions, but grimly determined not to let his emotions get in the way. When push came to shove, Sentinel was still talking about nothing but the good of Cybertron. This is a deliberate contrast to Megatron, who for the entire trilogy has claimed the same noble intentions as Sentinel, but at the end exposes himself as a mere fiend, desperately grasping for power. The juxtaposition of Sentinel shows the true version of what Megatron pretended to be, and completes Megatron's character arc of debasement before Optimus finally dispatches him.
     
  16. DemonessQ3A

    DemonessQ3A Well-Known Member

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    Ahah In China, a lot of Cybertronian extremists hate Optimus for "being a traitor".

    And thanks for those deeper and clearer explanation for the Sentinel's character (as well as Denethor's).
    Now I know that I'm the only one who has misread Sentinel's character in the name of Denethor.

    But there's one point that still makes me puzzled - is Optimus ruthless to kill Sentinel? Or is the movie story writer wrong in make Optimus do this?
     
  17. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    That's a matter of opinion, and hotly debated here. I'm of the mind that yes, Prime was a little ruthless in killing Sentinel. Sentinel was unarmed, defeated, and no longer truly a threat, especially as the apparent destruction of Cybertron represented a total collapse of his agenda. We've seen that Cybertronians can be contained/incarcerated, and that stasis mode can be somewhat easily inflicted (as in the cases of Jetfire and Sentinel, and Megatron in the first film). So to me, his execution was unwarranted and unneeded, especially in such a summary manner.

    However, others argue that Optimus Prime killing him was a measure of revenge for Ironhide (which brings up it's own moral debate about revenge vs. justice), or that he would be too dangerous to leave alive. At the very least, Optimus Prime ending Sentinel's life is a consistent act in the ongoing trend of his treatment of prisoners in the Bayverse, so a case could also be made for cultural reasons why Prime (and the other Cybertronians) simply don't take prisoners.
     
  18. Shizuka

    Shizuka Optimus Prime's scriptor

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    The storyline and characterisation are more down to the writers than Bay himself. Sure Bay has the final say on details but these things are down to the writers themselves. For example it wouldn't make sense to blam Bay if you hated the movie score because although he said yes to what tracks are in the film, he didn't compose them.

    Now as for Sentiel being a traitor well I can't say it better than already described but he made for an interesting character. It's a little funny how people are wanting to disregard the best characteristion when people seem to condenm the films for apparently not doing so.

    I also think that a lot of people didn't want Sentiel to be the "bad guy" because they subconsciously wanted a bad-ass Autobot on the team but that slot is already filled by Optimus.
     
  19. flamepanther

    flamepanther Interested, but not really

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    Cybertronian culture or ours? Assuming Prime has the means to incarcerate enemy Cybertronians and a place to put them, how would most governments feel about housing living, sentient, and openly hostile weapons of mass destruction within their borders? It may well be that death is inevitable for unfriendly robots, and Optimus is merely getting it over with.
     
  20. Aernaroth

    Aernaroth <b><font color=blue>I voted for Super_Megatron and Veteran

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    They didn't have any problems with keeping Megatron prisoner for 50 years. Especially when you think that whatever government holds them is going to study them and learn a ton they can apply to their technology.

    But I meant Cybertronian culture. It could be that prisoners are simply not a concept that's common in the Great War, given how the Decepticons acted as well.
     

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