Am I the only one who feels there are double standards going on?

Discussion in 'Transformers Movie Discussion' started by kaijuguy19, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. kaijuguy19

    kaijuguy19 Keyblade Wielder

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    I know I've mentioned this in another thread in the past but with the new pics of TLK Hot Rod going on and the controversy of his design I've been meaning to talk about this for a while now.

    Am I the only one who feels that there are a couple of double standards going on when it comes to how some people bash the movies for not being true to the source material enough or at all due to them how different they are from G1 yet when other non G1 series do things differently from G1 not a lot of people seem to get mad and uptight about at least not as much.

    Like for example.

    People complain that Movie Optimus is a long nose truck and not a flat nose truck and that he should've been a flat nose instead yet G2 Optimus and Armada Optimus who came before him also had long nose trucks yet they don't seem to get hated on.

    People rip AOE Galvatron a new one for not resembling his G1 design and that he doesn't have his Unicron origin yet other versions of him don't exactly have that going on either with a few exceptions yet they never get hated.

    People give Movie Drift the stink eye for being a Samurai sterotype yet IDW Drift when he isn't written by James Roberts was even more so yet Movie Drift seems to get the most flak

    People rage on couple of characters that don't act or look like the G1 characters yet we got characters like TFA Prowl,TFP Breakdown,Armada Cyclonus,etc who are pretty much new characters compared to their G1 versions.

    People raged at the new direction that AOE and TLK are taking with the fantasy and knight element saying that it's straying from the fiction yet the fantasy elements and kngihts have been present in other Tf stories long before the movies came int play and adapted them.

    Those are just examples I've presented. I know not every fan thinks like this since every fan has different reasons for liking or disliking a different take on a character or element but still it just feels like the movie franchise as a whole seems to be the only target to be given flak for not being like G1 and that the others are given a free pass despite doing the same things the movies are doing.

    What do you guys think?
     
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  2. electronic456

    electronic456 擎天柱

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    The movies have the biggest misfortune of being the most well-known branches in the franchise next to G1. Their exposure is just so big that people will ignore stuff like Animated or even RID15 that is still going on.
     
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  3. Seth Sunthay

    Seth Sunthay ElusoryMonk

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    I'm going to say, depsite the g1's designs, they weren't interesting characters as the another continuities.
     
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  4. electronic456

    electronic456 擎天柱

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    Oh yes, I forgot to say.... Every time I go look up stuff on the 1986 TF movie, the comments are evident that some people aren't all aware of the liberties other series have taken and instead are pointing their finger at the movies.
     
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  5. iceburn9

    iceburn9 Constructicon

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    Can't speak for others, but I'm one of those who isn't bothered how true something stays to source material. I'm open to new interpretations and imaginations, and will judge the new iteration for what it is.

    They can make Starscream a ship, and Hot Rod a giant octopus. If I see their designs work in the movie setting, I'm perfectly fine with it. If I don't like how they look, then I'll criticize it - but not because they didn't follow the original, merely that it doesn't make sense in the environment it's supposed to be in.

    Of course, this is my personal take only. And it's not to say that others who are more particular about reference to source material, shouldn't complain either.
     
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  6. Galvatross

    Galvatross Ogre-analyze your toy-based fiction Veteran

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    [​IMG]

    Great post!

    I especially love that you mention Galvatron. G1 Galvatron, comics or cartoon, is one of my favorite Transformers characters of all time. His insanity and disregard for his own troops, his arrogance, and his relationship with Cyclonus means I can't help but love the guy as the leader of a villainous faction. It was a completely different dynamic than the Starscream-Megatron dynamic, which I also enjoy.

    Despite my love for G1 Galvatron, I actually prefer AOE Galvatron's origins. In G1 Megatron was forced to make a pact with Unicron and become his servant. Of course, Galvatron attempts to rebel, but there's no doubt Galvatron was in a place of weakness relative to Unicron.

    In AOE, Megatron comes from a point of weakness as an immobile head with a big gash in his head. His survival a secret, he gives humans the knowledge to build their own Transformers he can take over. He alters the Galvatron prototype to have the appearance of Megatron. He manipulates the humans to attain the Seed for him. He feigns being a lifeless drone. He played the humans. Even Lockdown appears to be unaware of Megatron's survival or that by capturing Prime that he was benefiting the Decepticon leader. That is the manipulative Megatron the Decepticon leader should be. He is the master of his own destiny and not at the whims of a space deity.

    Furthermore, Galvatron can go toe-to-toe with Prime, he is voiced by Frank Welker (who does an excellent job by the way; every time he spoke I loved it!), his origin is a tribute to Animated Megatron, and he survives to fight another day.

    Heck, even the state the Decepticons are in resembles the original film and beginning of Season 3. In the 1986 film the Decepticons find themselves the losers. They are exiled onto Chaar, and their leader is lost for a time and ends up going insane. Once Galvatron returns he beats up even his most loyal troops.

    In AOE the Decepticons and Autobots are both at a low point. The Decepticons lost a major battle that decimated their ranks, and there are very few from either faction left on Earth, and both sides are being hunted by Lockdown and Cemetery Wind. Barricade survives in some capacity, although how remains to be seen. Megatron is reduced to a head.

    Furthermore, whether one likes the directions more recent films go or not, the worst ideas about Transformers fiction are that fictional universes and their characters should never or barely change. Marvel and Sunbow both changed a lot over time. The Beast Era 's universe changed over time. The movies' universe is different from what it once was. Look at the casts by the end of the original Marvel run. The Autobots still had some early members among their ranks, but Bludgeon was now the Decepticon leader, and his henchmen were completely different characters from the robots that appear earlier on in the Marvel run. No more of the early major Decepticon names were present. Look at the 1986 movie. It switches up the Autobot casts, introduces Unicron, reformats a bunch of Decepticons, makes Rodimus into the leader, and introduces the Junkions and Quintessons.

    Likewise, the movies are also changing and should change their direction from earlier in the films. The movies are now in their Season 3 stage. I am glad we are moving into the realms of Quintessons and Knights and Transformer origins and what not. G1 did it, and so should the movies.

    The progress of the Bay universe actually fits quite well with G1 in actuality. Crazy well in fact. We have gone from Autobots befriending the Witwickies to Jetfire joining the Autobots to live action Megatron's Master Plan/The Ultimate Doom to largely new Transformers casts (even though Bee and Prime and Megatron still play major roles) to bounty hunters hunting the Autobots for the Quints like in Five Faces of Darkness Part 1. Furthermore, TLK is shaping up to have more aspects from Season 3 and Season 4, with the origins of the Transformers explored like in FFOD, Optimus being controlled/corrupted like Dark Awakening (perhaps even by the Quints like in DA), and the introduction of an Autobot Headmaster. Anyone who thinks the Bay universe is not like G1 in plenty of ways is in denial.

    Finally, A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court is what got me into G1, so of course I have no problem with the medieval stuff. It has plenty of precedence in Transformers fiction with the episode I mentioned as well as Madman's Paradise and Man of Iron.

    If people are going to criticize or dislike the Bay movies because of their own reasons and preferences then that is perfectly fine, but I'll never understand the "Ruined FOREVER"/"Not really Transformers"/"Not based on the source material" arguments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  7. Honorbound

    Honorbound The Reclusive Semi-Lurker

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    The movies are being held to a different standard: I firmly believe that the reason for this is that the nitpicky fans you're referring to don't see the movies as just another continuity in a different medium - they wanted G1 adapted on screen, and the fact that the movies didn't go that route infuriates them constantly - it's like salt in an open wound for them. I'll give you a perfect example: around 2006 or 2007, when the movie characters' concept art was floating around, a fan created his own versions, which were basically CG versions of the G1 designs, to much applause among the G1 traditionalists in the community.
     
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  8. SilverOptimus

    SilverOptimus Movie News Monster Moderator News Staff

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    Bottom line: People who hate the Live Action Movies will hate the movies no matter what. You can give them a frame-by-frame live action version of G1 and they’ll still hate them. They’ll even say that a bolt is not fastened properly if they have to.

    There are several individuals here who spread nothing but hate. No justified reason whatsoever. We get people like that on all iterations of Transformers and not just for the movies. There is just no pleasing them.

    I’ve seen what Michael Bay movies did. Until 2007, only a handful of people knew about the franchise in my country. No toy came since G1. Even G1 was not popular. Then it exploded (pun intended since this is Michael Bay we are talking about here). Transformers and its characters became household names. Toys are flying off shelves. It helped to push Generations, TFP and RID toys as well. Sri Lanka only aired G1 and Beast Machines here. Pretty soon with the popularity of the movies, TFP and RID came. Fans here couldn’t believe what happened. We now have toys, we now have cartoons. And it's all thanks to Michael Bay Transformers Movies.

    Haters need to see this. Haters need to know how the movies helped the brand as a whole. If they really think the Live Action Movies are hurting the brand, they really need to take off their colored glasses and look at the bigger picture.
     
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  9. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    If I might play devil's advocate, one could say that the reason the movies catch flak for changes is because unlike, say, the changes made to TFA Prowl from the original, they're changes without much benefit. They're just different because they're different.

    But that still doesn't excuse the innumerable other examples you listed. I mean, Megatron before the movies had virtually no semblance of a consistent look, varying wildly just about every time he showed up. Bat ears, antlers, Galvatron's helmet, giant horns... Only once TFA gave us a really G1-ny Megatron did he start to become the bucket-head again. And one could say that even the changes that turned out positive were simply the product of "different just 'cuz" to begin with. I doubt TFA Prowl would've been a worse character had he been a police car. TFA was a great show, they could've made him a turtle and it would've worked. People lost their minds over Sideswipe as a silver corvette, but not a dorky blue regular-ass car in Armada. Wheeljack as a mad scientist? Completely unacceptable! Wheeljack as a black Sideswipe Decepticon with a revenge complex? Eh, whatever. Ironhide as a rough and tough cranky guy itching to bash Deceptichops? Ewww! Ironhide as a whiney Tonka truck who can't even hide his head in alt mode? Acceptable. The list goes on.

    But, yeah, I mean I was kinda numb to the fact that Transformers didn't, and still does not, maintian any sort of aesthetic or character continuity unless they're actually two shows in the same continuity... and then BM and NuRID defy even that exception.

    There absolutely is a double-standard, and I think you're right, it's mostly a result of the movies being the most exposed. But that's hardly a creative factor now is it? At least people not liking the visual aesthetic is totally understandable, but any time a new character is revealed and they're completely unlike any previous version, I have to wonder if the last-

    TEN YEARS

    -just didn't happen or something with the backlash it always gets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  10. Livingdeaddan

    Livingdeaddan Well-Hated G1'er!

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    You have to appreciate that a lot of people just don't think these movies are very good, and therefore see them as perverting a source they care about a lot. TBH if these movies were closer to G1, but made in the same bay style, there'd be even more uproar. Can you imagine G1 Bumblebee pissing on someone's head, or G1 Devastator walking around with a huge set of clangers!

    I think these movies should stick to making their own characters. Look at Barricade and Crosshairs for example, more of that.

    I'm fine with reinterpretations of known characters. But they have to be good. I love MV Lazerbeak and Sentinel, my problem is when they make watered down copies of known characters, or nameslap onto some useless "character"

    Exactly. Iceburn sums it up.

    The reason is they don't think the movies deserve a free pass.
     
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  11. Noideaforaname

    Noideaforaname Pico, let's go up to Zuma

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    Everybody knows the original cartoon and Hollywood update. Nobody knows the garish 90s repaint toyline, or the crummy anime dub from the early 2000s, or garbage comics from god knows when.
     
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  12. SPLIT LIP

    SPLIT LIP Dry built

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    But they aren't new characters. Barricade and Crosshairs have both existed before. What makes them a different case than Hot Rod? All three are dramatically differnet redesigns of old characters,

    See, this is pretty damn subjective, and once agin plenty of previous bit characters have used pre-established names. What exactly did the Spy Changers ever do? Yet two of them were named Ironhide and Mirage.

    Except he doesn't really. Starscream worked just fine in the movie setting. His design pefectly fit his more agile fighting, cusioning his landing on his digitigrade legs from flight, twisting and swinging around his long arms to scrap those jets in TF1. Plus his ganglier design fit with his snivelling, subserviant personality. We don't know what Hot Rod's going to do, but so far all we know is he's Bumblebee's brother and is presumably a youthful upstart. Welp, he certainly resembles Bumblebee, and his face is convincingly youthful so I'd say he perfectly fits with what they're doing with him in this setting. Nothing about his design is especially wrong for the movies.

    But every other series does?

    The issue is not that the movies deserve a "free pass" but that no other TF media, and I mean no one, has recieved the same level of criticism for the same level of change.

    Except for the fans who have followed the brand for years, and they're the ones complaining.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  13. TFXProtector

    TFXProtector Well-Known Member

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    You're not the only one. It's been a problem for a while now and a lot of people have taken notice. Not just on this topic, but in several areas of the fandom, really.

    "Because this is the first live action film series and doggone it, they better get it right or we're going to burn their houses down! Wait, he has flames?! YOU BASTARDS!" ...more or less. All of it silly as hell, but that's pretty much it. People waited decades for Transformers to become the real deal and when they did, they deviated in so many ways, especially visually, that people's brains broke. Doesn't mean they're right, doesn't mean they're wrong, just means they're going to voice that opinion come Hell or high water.

    Aha. Another good catch. Although, I think some of that has to do with the established thing of "Megatron always becomes Galvatron. Oh, he's a repaint. MUST BUY." and AOE threw that right out the window. (Thankfully.)

    Because everyone wants to be offended about something in this pussywhipped PC world we now live in. There are professional victims lining up to start the whole thing anew because they're entitled, damn it! They love to cry racism (or any other ism, really) when it's not intended as such and should tell you more about the person pointing fingers...

    Again, you're using logic. These people think Transformers is the end all, be all of life. It's the plastic Manna from Heaven and shouldn't be toyed with. The movieverse and all of it's offerings are feces from Hell. (In their minds, not mine.) You can't reach these people. You just can't.

    Again, professional victims on a rampage. It's all they can do. It makes them feel like a person because they contributed to hate somehow. They need this to feel validation and be a real person. (As opposed to what, I don't know. Apparently, they didn't get the memo that they don't need validation to be a person.)

    You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Problem is, you're using logic to combat crazy and it's just not an effective weapon. Especially when the common sense brigade is outnumbered by the crazies. (And yes, they're crazy because they're letting a 10 year old franchise affect them personally when it literally cannot do that.)

    That's simply not true at all. They do have a benefit. Most people don't see it or they ignore it or they're oblivious to it and that's that it's Hasbro's call. (Plus Bay's saving money all over the place.)

    Hasbro? They need to sell toys for these movies. They had all brand new molds of varying types for the first film. It was a big deal back in 2007. Before that, they could just repackage Takara molds and sell them cheaper by cutting features, electronics and paints, so the burden wasn't as big financially.

    Then came ROTF and kids (really, the parents) aren't going to buy the same molds of the same characters again. Hasbro has to innovate and create newish molds of the same characters to make it work. There's still a ton of reuses, though and people complained.

    Now, it's gotten so bad that people just flat out said "I'm not buying the same figure, AGAIN." but Hasbro needs to cut costs so what do they do? They produce a handful of new molds, surround those by reuses with just a new coat of paint and fancy packaging and find a way to get out of the mess unscathed.

    On Bay's end of things, he has Chevrolet to answer to. They want their newest designs on screen and in the middle of the action. He also wants to update, let's not kid ourselves here, but he also keeps what he can and changes what he must to keep the cost of things LOW. He's one of, if not, THE thriftiest directors in all of Hollywood. He can make a movie like this on what's considered a shoestring budget at this point. Those car companies don't use these movies as free advertising, they must pay some to be in the films plus they get licensing on the toys. When you have all of that going on, you're going to have to change it up at least some from one movie to the next.

    Might seem pointless, but there really is a method to the madness. Perhaps it's not the greatest, perhaps it's not always necessary right now, but there's a point to it regardless.
     
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  14. CKPRIME

    CKPRIME Lighter of Darkest Hours

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    I don't necessarily know that's true. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to answer to them. It think it's more of a loyalty thing, they were the only brand to take a chance on the first movie and GM providing all those cars saved a bunch of money. Not just hero cars, but cars to blow up. They also provided filming locations for AoE
     
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  15. Honorbound

    Honorbound The Reclusive Semi-Lurker

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    I can see how that would engender some loyalty. Besides, once that business relationship was established, there was no reason to break it.
     
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  16. G1DeadEnd

    G1DeadEnd Bring on 5, 6, 7 & 8!

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    This may be a matter of opinion, but TLK Hot Rod has some design traits, that remind me of G1.
    Yes, I think there are double standards with some folks.
     
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  17. Moy

    Moy Constructicons!

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    Nope
     
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  18. Applejacktimus

    Applejacktimus Likes Alpha Bravo

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    So much "common"-sense in this thread, compared to the rest of the internet, you're all wise sages. I love ya guys.


    Something I feel not many people talk about is how Galvatron has no spark, (soul) and despite how obvious it is - even to anyone who doesn't know about Galvatron throughout TF history - Galvatron's sentience was meant as a surprise to the audience.

    Something about Welker's raspy-yet-growling Galvatron voice felt absolutely terrifying when I first heard him speak. Just Prime's "You have no soul!" line immediately followed up by a sudden close-up to Galvatron's face combined with "That is why I have no fear!" definitely cemented him as being intensively scary as a Transformers character.

    That said, I'm really hoping the writers don't just abandon the potential here, depending on what the they do with Galvatron and Megatron in The Last Knight.

    Go to any clip of the G1 cartoon or movie. Any one will do. Now scroll through the comments. How long did it take you to find "This is ___ times better than all of the shitty bayformer movies combined"?



    Yeah.


    That's definitely true as well. Living defibrillator Movie Jolt isn't necessarily any better than Power-Up shroom tiny helo Micron Jolt or Lightsaber-wielding Electro-Rod Jolt.

    There's also where people cry about "drastic FOREVER-ruining changes" when the changes in question have ZERO effect on the character in question. Silver Pontiac or white Porsche, Jazz is still meant to be considered a cool car, and he's still sort of the black stereotype, just modernized a bit. Silver Corvette or red Lamborghini, Sideswipe is still meant to be considered a super-sexy car, and he's still brash and headstrong. Nothing different about them.

    But then that's a different "issue" entirely.
     
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  19. Javelin

    Javelin Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much this. I was brought up on the original 80's cartoons and missed out a LOT on the other TF stuff. I didn't even KNOW about them (Prime, Armada, etc) until Beast Wars came out. Even then I really wasn't into it that much because it was "wrong" lore wise (to me - I think OP was a firetruck?). When I saw the advertisement for the first TF movie, and heard OP's voice (Cullens), I assumed they were going back to the original storyline. When I saw it, I was kinda peeved. I understood how -some- things had to change (Bee not being a Beetle, for instance) because it wasn't the 80's anymore. But it seems now they atre changing things just to change them, and it irks me. Just a personal thing. But I never really understood the movie makers who basically go, "Wow! Look how popular this was back when I was a kid! Everyone loved it! I'm gonna remake it again, but change everything so it's completely different! I'll be great!"
     
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  20. bellpeppers

    bellpeppers A Meat Popsicle

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    Brief history lesson on this topic:
    Back in '05 / '06 when this movie was being shopped around and green lit, all the talk was of it being a live action G1.
    The media, Don Murphy, members of the media, etc.
    USA Today called it a live action G1.
    Talk was that the Bots were to look like Alternators.
    There was even a 'Con with a G1 looking Optimus with a tarp over it to promote the live action movie.

    People got it in their heads that this would be a live action G1- and production let it happen- if not encouraged it.

    Despite the 1st 15 minutes of TF '07 being more than enough to convey that despite what had been drummed into our heads, these movies were NOT G1.
    But the media didn't help the matter. Even after the 1st movie came and went, a major publication (USA Today again?) had a poll / contest about which character fans wanted for RotF: and they used G1 character IMAGES. Not simply names- but their G1 likenesses as well.

    It should have been stated from the very beginning that this was meant to be a new version, not a recreation of any existing version. It would have swayed and fixed any incorrect expectations and divisiveness would have been much lower.

    Despite the film-verse's seriously flawed beginnings, anyone with half a brain should know by now (after 10 f'ng years) that the movies aren't G1.
    There's just no excuse any more.

    Well so what if Knights appeared in TF media before? People aren't required to like the knight theme just because they were in an older comic or toon.
     
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