about beast machines as a series

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by redwolfbear, Jun 19, 2017.

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  1. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Let me Make what I meant clearer

    it's not that it doesn't add up at all it's just that it doesn't add up as being the more likely reason for the so-called actions in question

    there's a major difference between insinuating something and proving it

    And so far nothing you point it out proves that they did not need to perform the hygiene nor need to eat to maintain their biological functions

    Yes you suggested other reasons but you did not disprove anything
    because you are providing one example and only just one

    Wilder needs to maintain biological Flats are numerous and they showed what at least appears to be a few examples of that behaviors
    It certainly is denial
    Taking on Organic Formss is likely to have a few drawbacks similar to ours

    And if it was simply for vanity, what is the point of the toothbrush at all don't you think with all that technology they could have had a better way of polishing his teeth?
    except for what I already posted

    can you give me one from G1
    But not disproven
    sorry major typo

    I was saying that I recall seeing water in the tank that Megatron bathing in

    That not what i was talking about

    It was said that the Oracale sent them to earth so that they could return with the biological materials she needed to make them technorganic and what was eventually done to the planet itself.

     
  2. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    It makes it more likely considering the full range of Megatron's behavior treating his head/hand as a pet which is clearly displayed several times throughout the series.

    I find it interesting how you keep completely ignoring what I've pointed out from the show itself that prove they didn't need to eat to maintain biological functions. They ate for energy as an alternative to energon. There's nothing in the show that suggests they needed to maintain their hygiene or eat for biological reasons.

    That really doesn't answer the question, and I've given a couple of examples of Megatron treating his head/hand as a pet, not just the one.

    Because we disagree does not make it denial on my part. I see no evidence in the show itself to believe what you're suggesting about them needing to maintain their beast modes, and I have supported that by citing what is actually in the show itself. All you've done is pure speculation on your part, as they never show anything to suggest they had drawbacks similar to real organics.

    Again, the point of the toothbrush was to care for his head/hand as if it's a pet. If Megatron didn't care about his beast mode, certainly he wouldn't have been so intimate with it, cleaning it's teeth with a toothbrush.

    I'll give you several
    According to the TFwiki...
    The Marvel G1 Transformers Universe profile books, Trailbreaker plays a prank on Huffer while he is asleep.
    In the Marvel comics issue 56, "Back from the Dead", Ratchet falls asleep and has a nightmare.
    In Marvel comics issue 22, "Heavy Traffic", a human named Donny Finkleberg tells Skids that humans need to sleep unlike machines, to which Skids says Transformers do need to sleep to conserve fuel.

    Most of your points I have disproved with support from the series.

    It was what ever glowy healing liquid that is in the CR Tanks, Megatron never bathed in water.

    Couple problems with that... Optimus believed he'd figured out the Oracle's mission for them was to bring nature back to Cybertron. So he was speculating that the point of the Beast Wars was for them to bring back the 'organic elements' in their bodies. Only the Oracle never intended nature to return to Cybertron, it wanted Cybertron to become techno-organic. And there was no need for them to bring 'organic elements' to Cybertron when they later discovered that giant fossil cave already on Cybertron. So Optimus was basically wrong about everything there. Now, what exactly Optimus meant by 'organic elements' is open for interpretation. It's still not a clear indication of what their base beast forms were actually made of.

    You've been doing more than "suggesting", you've been treating it like it's a fact. And as I've pointed out several times, the show itself only establishes they can eat for energy, making it an alternative fuel source to energon. There is nothing that suggests it was to maintain their biology.

    It doesn't matter if they use 'flesh' in a similar fashion, they are two completely different franchises with their own rules. Beast Wars still never told us what their 'flesh' actually was, unlike the Terminator.

    In no detail whatsoever, again Beast Wars never went into it all. And that one like you're talking about from Beast Machines didn't really explain it either.

    Well, there were a few dragons (or similar creatures) in G1, and BW Megatron was pretty familiar with history...
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  3. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    and that I completely disagree with

    the needs to maintain flesh are numerous and they showed us a few

    the petting is the only thing that can't be explained buy a need of the flesh but all the other things you pointed out to can be explained by the needs to maintain flesh

    I'm not ignoring you it's just that you haven't proven it yes you showed an indication that they want said they were eating to maintain Energon levels but that does not mean it is the only reason they ate food

    If you can find me something that says it's the only reason then you got something

    again that's what you're denying things

    Now if you had said there's nothing in the show that proves they need to maintain their hygiene and eat for biological reasons...... then you would be a hundred percent right

    But the eating and acts of hygiene we saw do suggest the possibility

    maybe you did with others but with me I only remember you saying the one act but even so it still the same Act

    agreed but to say the actions don't even provoke the suggestion for the possibility of what I've been saying is denial
    in your opinion.
    unless there was a hygienic need

    The profile books don't really count they're like extended tech specs which contain information that's never seen in the comics or cartoons
    Thank you for those and I stand corrected on the sleeping issue
    there's a difference what's disagreeing presenting different possibilities and disproving another possibility

    So far the only thing you disproved was my issue with the sleeping

    I'll try to look that up later it's different than what I remember

    if you're right Ill conceed the point

    he was wrong about her endgame but not about the method she used to get what she needed there.

    And yes thet discovered that fossil cave but i see ee no reason to assume tgere was enough bio matter there for her to refornat the whole planet

    So Optimus wasn't exactly wrong and it seems pretty obvious that what they meant was DNA from living creatures
    no I haven't
    I simply told you what I feel is a more likely conclusion to the things we've discussed
    Thanks for the reminder it seems you have this point as well
     
  4. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    I've already proven my point by citing Primal telling Rhinox to eat something to keep his energy up as support. And far as the show goes, they only ever say that they eat for energy. If you want to prove they ate food for any other reason, such as to maintain their 'flesh', then that's something you need to find.

    I think you know that is exactly what I meant.

    Oh here we go. Every debate I've ever been in with you, you always seem to fall back to this, saying you were just arguing the possibility of something that isn't technically impossible because the show doesn't explicitly preclude it, but isn't really provable by anything in the series either. That's a dishonest way to debate a point.

    What do you think kicked off this debate? You were the one that specifically asked me what examples I had of Megatron enjoying his beast mode, to which I gave several. Whether or not you agreed with them because you could think of some other "possibility" to explain that behavior is your own issue.

    Reformatting the planet was never about bringing bio matter to Cybertron or having living DNA. All it took was Optimus and Megatron falling into the organic core together. Optimus was completely wrong, and he almost destroyed the planet because of it.

    To cite an example...
    That's worded as if it were fact, not what you felt was 'more likely'.
     
  5. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    that neither proves nor disproves the possibility of other reasons
    I have nothing to prove I only suggested it as a possibility or in other words of theory.

    I do now sorry for the confusion

    My life has been a bit hectic lately so I maybe Miss reading some of the intended statements around here

    Because that's what I'm doing I like playing Devil's Advocate I like provoking new and imagine thought I like it when we could take something look at it a new way and turn everything on its ears

    And I'm not debating a point of fact
    Im just supporting my theories
    I only recall one example of petting that you point it out

    The other examples that you suggest as vanity I believe are more likely answered by other reasons that I've already posted
    that wasn't the ending message I got from the series

    You got me there my mistake
    I miss worded that one
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  6. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    I don't care if it doesn't prove or disprove the possibility of other reasons. I care about what facts the show itself established.

    Onus probandi.

    Playing devil's advocate is when someone argues a position they don't necessarily agree with in order to explore a thought further. Essentially, seeing both sides of an argument. What you do is more of a "absence of evidence" fallacy, claiming something to be possible simply because there is nothing to disprove it, or vise versa.

    There in lines the problem.

    I cited those as examples from the show to back up my claim Megatron cared about his beast mode in Beast Wars. You can't just dismiss that based on nothing more than your opinion that you think there are other more likely reasons. You have to actually support that with proof from the show.

    I didn't mention anything about the ending message... I only talked about what they actually showed triggering the reformatting of Cybertron.
     
  7. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is there is no burden of proof on my behalf because I never sighted this as a fact

    I suggested it as a theory as a possible alternative to what most people believe or to at least what you believe and for that my only burden was the site evidence that can support the theory

    Which I did even if you feel the evidence itself is more indicative of something else it still fits the possibility of what I suggested again fulfilling my burden

    yes you did and I don't dismiss them I just don't believe they are proof of what your concluding
    that itself is the ending message I'm referring to

    from everything I've learned on the show the Oracle still needed to have the DNA brought from Earth to fulfill her ultimate plan
     
  8. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    You said I only gave the one example. That is completely dismissing every other example I had given, regardless of if you agreed with them or not. I have no interest in arguing against these unsubstantiated 'possibilities' or 'theories' or whatever you want to call it of yours. If you're going to debate against something, there needs to be some actual burden of proof on you to be able to prove your side of the argument, not purely your opinion of a 'possibility' that is neither supported or refuted by the show itself. That's a logical fallacy. As such, I'm done.

    I don't think 'ending message' is the right term for that, but whatever. Megatron shoots the organic core with the key to Vector Sigma and then Optimus pushes Megatron in, realizing they need the balance between 'good and evil' and... That's it. Cybertron is reformatted once they hit the goo. It was never about bringing anything from Earth. Besides, the fossil cave had a whole lot more animals in it than just the 8 survivors from Beast Wars. Not to mention the Oracle created techno-organic trees out of thin air.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  9. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Because you only did give one example that came close to backing up claim that Megatron loved his beast mode.

    Other examples you gave do not prove that claim they may suggest the possibility of your claim but they fall far from proving it

    Are you say you have no interest arguing against 'possibilities' or 'theories' but that's exactly what you're doing with your claim

    Nothing and I repeat nothing in the show clearly tells us that he loved his beast mode

    You were basing your entire argument on your interpretation and I repeat that "YOUR INTERPERTATION of Megatron's behavior.......not everybody is going to see things the way you did and guess what I'm not one that does

    And they were all the ways to look at that Petting behavior also

    We saw her in the series that their BEast instincts could sometimes influence their overall personalities, I even recall this being a big issue in at least one episode for a few characters

    Well maybe Megatron have to pay is beast mode some attention for any number of reasons like his program was being influenced or he had to cater to it to keep it happy to some degree and either of those could explain why he hated the beast mode such much later in his life

    Sorry if it's not the right term but again I disagree with how you think the ending came about

    I feel Oracle needed the DNA to further push our plans for the planet offer the very least she needed it for the rest of her children maybe In the way immunization works on people
     
  10. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Sigh... No, I the argued that Megatron enjoyed having a beast mode by citing examples from the show as evidence to support that argument. Evidence is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid". You on the other hand only suggest your opinion that other 'possibilities', that are not supported or refuted by the show, could explain some of those examples. Big. Difference. You want to dispute my interpretation? Fine. But you can't simply dismiss those examples because of your opinion. You need to support that argument with evidence from the show to back it up.

    What evidence in the show suggests the Oracle actually needed or used anything from Earth? Again, all you're doing is suggesting possibilities you feel would explain things, but is completely unsubstantiated by the show itself.
     
  11. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    I suggest a few alternate possible reasons for the actions you described that are indeed supported (not proven) but yes supported by the show

    A single piece of evidence could support many different theories but can only usually only prove one
    I would say it the evidence lies in the two shows themselves

    Why arrange to send them to earth at all if she didn't need it

    Secondly I always felt show was trying to give us a message of that it wasn't the destination but the journey that was of importance[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Support from the show means citing some evidence from the show to back up those 'alternate possible reasons'. Just because you can think of some 'alternate reason' that isn't expressly refuted by the show to explain an action, that isn't support in and of itself.

    Such as...?

    The Oracle didn't arrange to send them to Earth. When Optimus said that, he was guessing as to what the Oracle's purpose for them was. He thought the Beast Wars hadn't been fought in vain because it allowed them to bring back "organic elements" because the Oracle intended for them to restore nature to Cybertron. Optimus didn't know about the fossil cave yet, or that the Oracle actually intended for Cybertron to become techno-organic. The point of the Beast Wars was Megatron trying to change history.
     
  13. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    and I did that ironically it's some of the same Evers you cited to support your love idea

    Bathing brushing of his teeth and all that stuff i posted 1000 times
    right and I don't recall learning anything else throughout the series that would refute what Optimus what

    I know we didn't know about the cave at that point but I don't think the existence of the cave just proves but after Mr. earlier

    I also don't see how the Oracle actual intended for Cybertron to become techno-organic changes the idea that she needed the DNA from earth to for fill our plan
     
  14. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Again, I cited evidence from the show to support the argument Megatron enjoyed having his beast mode in Beast Wars. You made stuff up just to argue my interpretation of those examples with out any actual support from the show. That is not the same thing. I don't deny that the examples I cited could be interpreted in other ways, but if that's what you're going to argue, you need support from the show to do that with, not just what you think is possible.

    What else do you need to need to refute it? What, if anything, suggest Optimus was right about any of that?

    Again, where is the evidence from the show? What actually suggests the Oracle needed anything from Earth in the show?
     
  15. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    and again, I cited the very same evidence from the show to support the argument that their bio forms needed maintenance.

    Now let me twist your words
    Megatron enjoyed having his beast mode in Beast Wars

    Now let me twist your words a bit...
    . You made up that megatron enjoyed his beast mode in beast mode in beast wars with out any actual definitive evidence from the show.

    You're the one being dismissive you keep telling me that my idea is not supported by the evidence but the evidence in question supports my idea just as well as it does yours

    I feel the show tells us that their bio parts are similar enough to our own, so in my mind the evidence with both sited suggest a need for maintenance

    You feel the show tells us that Megatron's behavior was indicative of vanity, so in your thinking the evidence we both cited suggest he loved his beast mode

    So there's no difference of what we've been doing
    The only thing I recall learning that he was wrong about was that the Oracle wanted to make the planet organic

    Instead she wanted techno-organic

    we covered that before Optimus clearly stated it

    And yes we learned he was wrong about one thing but I don't remember hearing he was wrong about everything else
     
  16. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    You didn't 'cite' the same evidence, you took those examples I'd given and made up your own explanations for them to argue a different interpretation not actually supported by the show. You even said yourself only a few posts back that you 'like to play devil's advocate' by not debating points of fact, just what you feel are 'possibilities'.

    I pointed out numerous times why the 'possibilities' you've suggested aren't supported by actually citing evidence from the series to refute it. I've even given you more evidence when you asked for it, like the examples of Transformers sleeping prior to Beast Wars. I haven't been dismissive at all. Yet, when ever I've asked you to cite evidence from the show that supports any of the claims you've been making, you've side stepped the issue or claimed you don't have to because you're just suggesting 'possibilities'. Again, that is a huge difference in what you've been doing compared to my argument, no matter how you try to twist it around to make it seem like it's the same.

    And this is exactly what I mean by side stepping the issue. I think you know I meant besides what Optimus said, considering that is a point of contention here. If the Oracle still needed DNA from Earth as part of its plan to reformat Cybertron as you suggest, then what in the show suggests the Oracle ever did anything with it and for what purpose? Why did it need DNA from Earth when it already had the fossil cave on Cybertron? How does the existence of the fossil cave not refute Optimus' belief they'd been sent to Earth to bring back 'organic elements'?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  17. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    how is that not the same thing?
    No you only pointed out reasons you disagree and cited some evidence that supports that argument

    But nothing you posted this proves the possibility of what I said so it does not negate that the show contai n s evidrnce that supports my theory at the very least

    How did I sidestep the issue? You even just admit it that I cited sleeping as part of my evidence. Granted that is evidence that you have successively refuted but I gave examples

    I still stand by the eating and the bathing as evidence that suggests a need to maintain the flesh, yes you represented other reasons for those behaviors but I do not feel your reasons are more likely
    maybe I just didn't understand your question and I don't know how to see even now I'm not sure I fully got it

    I guess the only answer that I think I can see if I understand your question is that if she always had the power and the means to do what she did I don't see why she waited so long to do it

    I also felt the writers were trying to deliver a message that in the end it's not the destination that's important but the journey to get there, so then in my opinion she must have sent the Transformers to Earth for one of two reasons for either the DNA or for at least life experience with flesh or bio parts
     
  18. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    How many times do I need to explain this? I used those examples as support from the show to back up my argument. You came up with your own 'theories' just to argue my interpretation, with out support from the show.

    Exactly, I cited evidence that supports my argument. You haven't. All you've given is your 'theories' that aren't substantiated by the show.

    You sidestep from actually giving any evidence from the show to back up your arguments. Just pointing out that they sleep in and of itself isn't evidence when the show itself doesn't suggest sleeping/eating/bathing or whatever had anything to do with maintaining their beast modes. You've only given your own 'theories' to explain that behavior, not something from the show that actually supports those ideas. And then when I ask for evidence to support it, you refuse.

    At the very end Optimus realized he and Megatron had to sacrifice themselves, to balance good and evil between eternal rivals.

    Nightscream did that with out ever leaving Cybertron.
     
  19. Altered Prime

    Altered Prime Well-Known Member

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    Wow really just wow
    " just to argue your interpretation"?

    I hate to burst your bubble but you're not the only Beast Wars fan that feels Megatron love his beast mode in the first series.

    You're also not the first I've had this debate with, I've been asserting for quite some time on this site and others that the BW characters were far more akin to cyborgs and as such may have had the inherent needs to maintain their flesh by any number of methods

    And yes I cited the same evidence before as I did with you in the last few days. So I used those examples to backup my argument the same as you did. So like you I cited evidence that supports my argument...... it just happens that the evidence in question are the same examples you provided

    The evidence doesn't prove either of our cases Beyond any doubt but does suports both lines of thinking

    likewise those examples alone don't exactly suggest he loved his beast mode.

    You've only given your own 'theories' to explain that behavior, not something from the show that actually proves thatc idea. And those same behaivors do indeed support my theroy

    It's rather simple when you think of it
    1) the show and its sequel does imply they are using some kind of Flesh

    2) the implications of some kind of Flesh suggest and inherent need to maintain it

    3) the behaviors cited are indicative of maintenance of the flesh

    Show the show the support my theory
    are you suggesting she couldn't have manipulated circumstances to get that result earlier?

    That's not really relevant to my thinking

    The way I see it Optimus and the others took that Journey for their entire race

    Similar to how they say Jesus Christ died for all our sins
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  20. Sparky Prime

    Sparky Prime Well-Known Member

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    Do you not remember what you'd admitted earlier?

    No, I cited those examples to back up my argument. You used those examples to 'turn everything on its ears', but haven't cited any evidence to support those 'possibilities' you came up with. Even now after I've pointed out I've repeatedly asked you to provide evidence from the show, you'd rather try to manipulate the discussion and twist things around instead.

    Only when you ignore what they actually say in the show.

    No. I'm saying it took Optimus that long to realize what he needed to do.

    Well to bad, it's a part of the show. You can't just ignore it because it doesn't fall in line with your thinking.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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