2nd Transformers Tournament: Main Thread

Discussion in 'Transformers General Discussion' started by OptimusSolo, Jun 24, 2009.

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[RMF-2] Contest #3: #5 Nosecone vs #13 Steeljaw

Poll closed Aug 24, 2009.
  1. Nosecone

    46.9%
  2. Steeljaw

    53.1%
  1. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    To clarify, the sequence I am specifically referencing is that moment when Prime plows through the Decepticons in Truck mode, with all the return fire bouncing off his hull.

    That just looked like him ignoring superficial damage. It was not demonstrated in any way that he was injured by (or even felt) those hits.

    Later, against Megatron, he's clearly showing effort, but in that earlier scene, it looks like a cake walk for him. The animators really didn't make an effort to show any vulnerability on Prime's part.

    zmog
     
  2. kryptofred

    kryptofred super-con

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    I think it was meant to show him charging onto the battlefield, fully powered and ready to kick ass. But so much of that scene got cut it goes straight to him facing Megatron, where he's shown looking kinda worse for wear. I still think he did a number on the Decepticon army off camera, mostly due to Kup's comment "Prime turned the tide!"

    At the time I thought the scene was truely epic. Today it seems a bit lacking compared to more modern final battles.
     
  3. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    May you die well.

    So was I.

    I see the entire segment , from when Prime says "Megatron must be stopped....no matter the cost", till he finally falls as a testimate to his stamina.

    We see it differently.
     
  4. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Quite true.

    Yeah, exactly. I guess it just doesn't have enough nostalgic majesty for me to see it in the same golden light as some others. Still some of the most awesome animated action seen in G1... no doubt about that.

    Obviously. But the point is, I'm not seeing stuff that isn't there. There's no indication in the animation of that sequence that Prime is hurt, or even really slowed down by the cons in front of him. No pause is given. He looks no worse for wear. There's no dialog. He doesn't grunt or groan. He doesn't shrug off the pain and continue... there is no indication that any damage was done to him.

    Like I said, I'm not even disagreeing. The intent of the scene, when viewed in context with the removed sequences, tells a different story, of Prime pushing himself to exhaustion by battling through ranks of Decepticons, and turning the tide... but there is no such story being told by the images on screen.

    So to go back to your own earlier statement, there's not enough information to really say. But no damage was indicated, and the edits are abrupt and awkward, so the overall impression is that Prime went from good health to death's door in a remarkably short stretch of time.

    You can fill the blanks mentally... that's no problem. It's quite logical. But it's those kinds of corners being cut that hurt the final filmic product...

    zmog
     
  5. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    Sorry but thats a matter of perspective.

    From where I'm sitting, your ignoring whats plain to see.

    I find indication of both by the "grunttting" noice Prime made as he fliped over them after transforming.

    He sounded quite hurt and tired.[

    Yes he does.

    Just after he transforms.......in mid flip.

    I disagree.

    I find the multible shots and the grunting to be more then enough evidence that he was effected by some of those hits.
     
  6. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    He is getting shot. That's it. No visible effect whatsoever. Everything you're saying you "see" is simply something you've inferred, which is not the same thing.

    I'm... not hearing anything. Just Stan Bush and laser blasts. And certainly there's no visual corroboration.

    :confused: 

    Again, I think you're simply inferring most of that.

    zmog
     
  7. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    I repeat...thats a mattrer of perspective.

    "He is getting shot, multible times, he grunts in pain afterwards as he's flipping"

    I see that as more then enough evidence to say he was hurt.

    Try watching on your DVD or you might need a better sound system.

    The grunt is there
    Thats nothing new in or from a cartoon.

    And again I think your ignoring or missing it.
     
  8. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    Granted, I'm only Youtubing it, but I really can't hear any grunts while he's leaping through the air (much less an obvious grunt of pain)... nor do I remember them being there.

    As for the visual corroboration, that would be true for the TV cartoon, but already in the Movie up till that point, that rule was tossed out the window, with most characters showing rather clear evidence of damage when they are hurt.

    I have to insist that whatever is taken away from that scene can only be inferred. There just isn't enough visual (or aural) information to determine that Prime was substantially damaged in that exchange.

    However, I do agree that he probably was, and that would account for some of his wear and tear by the time he faces Megatron. But I'm saying someone would be easily forgiven for not coming to the same conclusion, because it's not very well exposited.

    zmog
     
  9. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    Like I said try the DVD.

    To be honest with you I remember it from my first viewing as a child.

    I have always had an "ear" for sound and pitch all my life.A side effect of my condition.

    But it was always very hard to notice on my VCR tapes so I began to think I was imagining it.

    It wasnt till I bought the movie on DVD that I stopped doubting my memory.

    Hardly.

    To begin with thats not really a rule that can be cast out particularly because it really wasnt much of a rule.If the plot called for it they could take a few hits, it the plot called for it they couldnt take any.Thats how it was in the series and thats how it was in the film in its entirty.

    Secondly even that becomes a mater of perspective.

    Starscream took a hit from Hotrod and soon fell [before the shuttle crashed] was he ducking from other hist....possible, did the hit hurt him a bit and caused hi to become unbalanced.....also possible.

    Devestator took a hit from that big canon....he soon looked to be a bit strained, was it because of the hit or because of the building he was trying to tear in half????

    And I have to insist that your ignoring a direct and intended indication of what the story teller was trying to convey of Primes situation.

    That I can agree with.

    Its not something one would notice with a casual viewing.

    You must be a super-nerd to have seen it.
     
  10. SMOG

    SMOG Vocab-champion ArgueTitan

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    That follows. I only saw the movie once in theatres and after that only on VHS. I popped the DVD in at work to check it out, but didn't watch it straight through because I was mainly curious about the video quality.

    My point is just that generally when someone receives significant damage in the Movie, they show it in some way... a scream, a fall, a gaping hole, a limb on the ground, their eyes bugging out of their head, etc... :) 

    This in comparison with the old cartoon, where most of the time a direct hit wouldn't even leave a mark. Animation shortcuts! Woo!

    I'm saying that if such an indication is there, it's very poorly communicated. It is implicit (at best) rather than explicit. We know from the death scene that occurs later, and from our extra-narrative knowledge of the deleted material, that Prime was intended to be pushed to his limit in a battle to reach Megatron... but it isn't demonstrated onscreen in that sequence.

    Knowing what the storyteller intended to convey is not the same as having it communicated properly onscreen.

    That's my point. You and I are nerds. We put together the missing pieces in our heads and infer the "correct" meaning. But that's also us reading our own logical meanings into the content, which is unfortunately not always presented as well as it could be.

    I know that, tough as Prime is, charging headlong into a barrage of fire from the likes of Blitzwing and the Seekers is going to leave a mark. We fill in the meaning.

    To someone who doesn't know the characters... they might see it as Prime being unbeatable, and then suddenly having a glass jaw against Megatron. If this was a scene showing a berserk Prime infected with a raging invulnerability virus, plowing through Decepticons and shrugging off their ineffectual weapons, the scene would have looked much the same. The visual language doesn't convey all the necessary information.

    zmog
     
  11. Tacitron

    Tacitron An exceptional nut sack

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    Um, I watch the '86 movie about once every month, and I've never heard any grunts from Prime while he's making his run toward Megatron. Until Megatron hits him with the shard of debris, Prime shows no damage or reaction to fire whatsoever. Maybe Sto's got the rare special release 'grunt' edition. :wink: 
     
  12. Tacitron

    Tacitron An exceptional nut sack

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    Double post. :dunce 
     
  13. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    I never really implied that it was "significant damage" damage.And again I would say the grunt is in the same "family" as a scream, a fall, a gaping hole, a limb on the ground, their eyes bugging out of their head, etc...

    Just that each small shot lowered his endurance a bit.

    That I can agree with.

    Knowing what the storyteller intended to convey is not the same as having it communicated properly onscreen.

    Mine as well.

    Funny but I didnt say it was on the "run to Megatreon....unless I dont get your meaning.

    The grunt is heard just after Prime transforms to robot mode in mid air.....around the time that Prime shoots at Ramjet.

    He sounds a bit like an old guy getting up from his chair.

    If you listen real closely you can here it on this Youtube vid at about 11 seconds.
    sounds like a low "ugh"
    YouTube - Transformers part 3 of 9
     
  14. grimlock1972

    grimlock1972 "No Mas" My Wallet

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    I heard it Sto it is very Subtle and easily missed but i did indeed hear it , most intriguing *considers the meaning of this new info*
     
  15. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    :thumbs2: 

    Maybe it had something to do with what he ate for breakfast???

    YouTube - Optimus Prime vs Cereal Commercial - Take 1
     
  16. grimlock1972

    grimlock1972 "No Mas" My Wallet

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    "its a cosmotron what ever the hell that is"
    :lolol  Sto and they said Klingons have no sense of humor and after consideration i agree it was Prime vocalizing some of the damage ( slight or otherwise) he has taken on his route to the epic throwdown with Megs
     
  17. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    YouTube - Klingon War Song

    Its good to know I'm not alone.
     
  18. grimlock1972

    grimlock1972 "No Mas" My Wallet

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    nice video :thumbs2:  and no your not but i can see how many would miss it as I had to listen 4 times before i picked it up amoungst the blaster fire and blasting stan bush
     
  19. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Banned

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    Yeah it is easy to miss.
     
  20. Cast

    Cast Roll the dice

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    I just wanted to add something to this really just to give some point of reference to what kind of level BA thinks Hun-Gurr is at, with his miss read stats HG total stats score is 65, sixshot is I think is fair to say is considered the most bad ass con around, a super weapon in his own right and you know one of the most dangerus TF's ever built, in fact a one robot army, his total stats score, its 64, hun-gurr's stats beat sixshot's, probably cos he can spit rocks so well...

    Abominus actually only scores 51, maybe thats not all that fair as he is the stupidest TF in history but still it pretty much says HG is better off on his own, although that's still true with his correct stats.
     

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