I personally have no interest in plus versions but thus far, the repaints have not affected the release of new molds, and only afee plus version have actually been mainstream (nonHA, non TTmall) releases, so it doesn’t bother me.

What personally bothers me more is redoing old characters altogether (V2s, V3s), because they actualy take up precious R&D resources and release slots.

 

I know you're not just talking about exclusives, it's just we're in the thread for 17+, who is an exclusive MP release.
I agree, I also wish exclusives were cheaper. In fact, I wish the idea of a cartoon Prowl was popular enough that he had been a mainline release. It's ironic, since you don't wish that in this particular case (since you don't care for this release), but at least we can agree on that. However, it's the nature of the MP market.

It's not just about size, it's about parts count. It's unfortunate that you don't believe in the truth, although you're not alone in this world today.

From the interview on Masterpiece Sunstreaker:

There are situations where a part needs to transform 3 times in a certain direction, the parts count as a result is overwealming compared to were we started off with Lambor and the others.

There's a reason why Sunstreaker is more expensive than MP-10B.

Paint is also a factor, as they are now designing MPs to have full paint coverage (also mentioned in the same interview).

I think you're right that there is a strategic increase in prices that's not only warranted by the parts increase, that they're trying to make the MP line appear more 'premium' by charging more, but it's not as simple as slapping a $120 price tag on MP-12. They are actually improving the line when it comes to articulation ($), animation accuracy ($) and accessories ($). It just so happens that you don't care for animation accuracy, so you don't want to pay more for Sunstreaker to have a fake chest or a mask that he only used in one episode. But many of us do love that.

It's possible that at the time of Shockwave's release they didn't expect the + line to become a big thing. It's also possible that they just fucked up Shockwave's colour, or tried to please toy and toon fans by giving the options of stickers, and are trying to fix it with an exclusive release. It's also possible they planned this from the very beginning, which is a bit shitty but I guess good business? I'd like to believe it's somewhere between options 1 and 2, though I'm sure many instantly assume option 3.

You're the one who blames the current head-of-design for the toon accurate direction - you don't see the connection between Kobayashi being the lead designer, and his earlier designs being toon accurate?

Stupidly?

Ah I see, you're using a word like stupidly, others have called this 'stupid', 'dumbed-down', a 'downgrade', 'cheap and shameful', as a way to justify your own tastes, but do you not think this belittles the tastes of others, even if you don't mean to 'begrudge' them?

Because that's what this boils down to - tastes. You think Ironhide and Inferno are stupidly faithful, while others find that bold simplicity of line much more appealing. You prefer MPs to be covered in often-invented greebles, while others prefer the transformation seams to provide visual variety (think of the thighs and legs of MP-36 versus MP-10).

That's fair, but again you refer to the aesthetics as 'dumbed-down', which you do realise is an insulting way to put it?

You do know that the only reason MP-29 is toy accurate is because the animation model was very close to the toy? Tracks bothers you because you'd like him to come with his gun and toy-mask, or for other reasons?

Nah, it's ok to have a discussion about this in an ordinary way - but you have seen what this thread has become? Instead of talking about the gallery of 17+, it's mostly people just bitching about this release (which is fair I guess, we do have a separate thread for 17+ anyway). You really think the condescending tone most posters have used isn't meant to rile the feathers of people who do like this release? Just because they're angry, and they want others to be angry about something too.

Again, you think I want something better, insinuating that my tastes are worse than yours. I know at this point it's mostly tongue-in-cheek (at least I hope so), and hey it's good to have conversations about this. But I find it hard to believe that many people are coming into these threads to express their opinion without wanting to annoy the toon-accurate fans. In a lot of cases it seems like that's expressly their intention. You may even have fallen into this category unwittingly?

I do agree that MP-18 is beautiful, as is MP-18S, but neither of them evoked the character of Bluestreak to me as I remembered him from the cartoon. Even my custom fell short. If I'd had the toy of Bluestreak as a kid I'd happily pick up MP-18S again (and give him the pelvis from Prowl, and the launchers from 18+). See, when I had the toy as a kid, I like to go full-toy with the MP. That's what 36+ gets right, and hopefully future toy repaints will as well.

If you're gonna go toon, go full toon. If you're gonna go toy, go full toy.  

 

Actually, I don't really care if it's a mainline release. If I were still collecting MP figures straight from Takara, I might be impatient for them to finish up the 1984 cast first, but that's neither here nor there. If it WERE released as part of the regular run, how much do you think they'd charge for it?

It's unfortunate that you don't read people's posts. I rather pointedly said "size AND parts count." And what I'm questioning is whether the price hike is actually proportionate with parts counts and production costs. I don't think it is. That's why I asked if you have any actual stats to illustrate the relationship that holds up across different figures and price points. I doubt any such stats exist for the public, so we're really only taking Takara's word on it, and I don't think they are a reliable narrator. However, they do get to set the prices, so... it's up to them. And it's up to me (and every consumer) to question whether it's still worth it.

My suspicion is that the market is shrinking (whether from competition or just a dwindling interest) and Takara (and Hasbro) have judged it better to wring more money out of their hardcore collectors than to keep price-sensitive collectors.

I'm not sure if that's always an added value. Comparing with my old MP cars, they tend to have plenty of paint. More paint and detailing, I daresay, than MP Ratchet/Ironhide or Grapple/Inferno. I've never handled Sunstreaker, so I can't comment there... though it's self-evident that he has a higher parts count than Lambor (as well as being bigger, and adhering to a different aesthetic, which is why I'm happy to stick with the Sunsurge I got for $30).

And yet, the accessories that WOULD provide added value for me - like an optional toy-style head, weapons, and leg panels - are not included.

I give Takara (and other companies) a little slow clap for some of the clever gimmick items they include that pay homage to the character history. Even before the MP line, Japanese collectors seem to love special accessories or decos that reference that ONE shot, in that ONE OAV version of a specific scene, etc... However, I think they're also just a way to "fluff" the value of the item... cheap-to-make extras that exist mainly to puff up the perceived value of the (now higher) price tag... 90% of which ends up staying in the box untouched forever.

But individual mileage may vary, of course. For my part, the optional G1 box-art face for Megatron (and to a lesser degree, the toy-style chest) were the hands-down deal-closer for my THF Dynastron (the metal flake finish instead of matte was also a selling point, and of course, the fact that it cost fully 1/4 the price of the Takara).

Oh, I think it's prudent to assume they knew exactly what they were doing. They aren't some newbie 3rd party company fresh to the game. It's a tried-and-true way to get people to buy repaints.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, I'm blaming Kobayashi, because I believe he set the agenda for increased cartoon accuracy. It's also possible that it happened at a higher level, but I assumed that the shift was related to the change in hierarchy, and attributable to him, since that's literally his job description. But quibbling over who is responsible is sort of splitting hairs, isn't it?

Well, if we're talking about aesthetics, yes, I do value my own opinion on such things. But more incisively, I'd say that the distinction is that an appeal to nostalgia is not aesthetics for aesthetics' sake, and that in some cases, this involves subordiating aesthetics to nostalgia. That is, nostalgia for simplified, budget-conscious animation, itself often a pale shadow of the toys they were representing, dragged into 3 dimensions, with suppressed detail, textures, and finish, even while claiming to be a "deluxe item."

In essence, I prefer objects acting as objects, rather than in a weak imitation of images. Am I biased? Sure. As a kid, I never cared for the way the cartoon oversimplified or distorted some of the figure designs. I accepted them as a necessary simplification for the sake of commercial animation, but always dreamed of how they might look with a truly lavish treatment. Maybe if the toon versions appealed to me more, I'd be more generous to the new MP line... but I still think they're price-gouging.

I don't worry about insulting toys or their aesthetics. Or even large corporate entities.  

Yes and now, on Shockwave. The animation model was (mercifully) close enough to the toy, that the designer felt comfortable drawing on the toy for many of the small touches. So, yes, that made a difference to me initially, since no other company had really managed to capture the lines and deco elegance inherent in that original toy design (FT Quakewave is a travesty in that regard). As for Tracks, besides not coming with an alt faceplate or gun, it's the flat, boxy interpretation (or perhaps lack of interpretation) of his legs, the use of dull greys over blacks or gunmetal finishes. The original Tracks had some nice flowing lines (appropriate to his vanity) which the cartoon model didn't capture well. In a way, I like the Road Rage mold better for tracks than his actual molding, despite ostensibly being "feminized". It's just a nicer-looking figure, where the swooping lines of the alt-mode aren't at war with the flat parallel lines of the boxy robot parts.

Well, it does take two to tango, right?  

Oh, fair enough. But I'm here representing myself, not representing everyone else in this thread who might have an axe to grind in an indelicate fashion.  

Yes, I'm definitely taunting you because you have no taste. Please accept it with grace and good humour.  

I can't fully account for everything that someone might find annoying, and indeed... often being annoyed is due to their own desire to live in a box with no dissenting opinions. I think that's the nature of a forum, though. It's literally here for us to voice opinions on these toys. There should be no obligation or even expectation that we're going to all agree. Sometimes those opinions are going to come from a place of annoyance, but that's okay. In my books, being annoyed at a toy, or at a company... that's all in the game, so to speak. Slamming others for their feelings about a toy is where we go wrong.

Dang, I really need to paint my Prowl launchers steel grey.

Yeah, obviously one release that can be configured both ways would be ideal, but that's not feasible with all characters (and especially with an increasing "extreme toon" approach). My aesthetic preference almost always veers towards capturing the spirit of the better examples of the painted box-art (probably because TFs were on the shelves before they were on the airwaves, so that's what feels more 'primal' for me)... borrowing notions from the toon or toys to give the best overall presentation and figure. I guess that's how the "new MP" line started out, but it's sad that it won't get to finish.

Gripes about pricing and distribution (Hasbro and Takara both) are a whole other thing.

zmog

 

I'd say if 17+ were a mainline release it'd be the same price (8500 Yen, iirc), but we'd be able to get 30% off through Japanese etailers. That would've been cool. Definitely happier about the price of 20+, that's for sure.

How do you feel about 20+? Too cartoony for you? For me it's the same case of Bluestreak, where MP-20 just doesn't feel like the character I grew up with, while 20+ pretty much nails it. And at the same time, I think it'd be equally interseting to get an MP-20+ (toy) that has Exhaust's launchers and a bad-ass toy-accurate face. Even though I didn't even have the toy as a kid, I'd be tempted by that because the Stratos is a gorgeous car. They could even go to town with more real-world tampos. But MP-20's middle ground does nothing for me, sadly.

I feel for you regarding Tracks, in terms of not including his gun and face mask. I wonder if it was a last-minute decision, since his face plate is actually removeable (I tracked down a spare Loud Pedal head and gun to give mine those options). Perhaps we'll get an MP-25+ with black limbs, and the toy-accurate gun and face. And please, a semi-gloss paint job like Road Rage (I'm probably the only one on the planet who doesn't really like Tracks's metallic paint). I think MP-25's proportions are pretty spot on, though, but it depends on how you pose him. He kinda demands to be posed elegantly. Did you notice the box-art pose detailing that MP-25 has on his feet (@Dean ML pointed it out to me, it's a nice touch and shows that the toon is still not the only source these MPs homage).

Don't confuse paint and detailing, though. A smooth piece costs the same to produce as a piece covered in greebles. Wheeljack was notorious for having quite a bare paint job, and Sunstreaker does have more paint than the likes of Prowl or Bumblebee. In fact, almost every yellow visible part of Sunstreaker is painted (including his hands). Not sure what you mean about Sunstreaker being bigger than Sunsurge, but the fact that you like Sunsurge does account for your tastes somewhat I guess  
I'm glad we at least agree that Quakewave does not nail Shockwave's curves at all. Would you be interested in 29+ (or maybe a KO of it, if price is the only issue?).

Anyway, nice to have a discussion about this with someone who is able to articulate their thoughts beyond THIS SUCKS AND YOU ALL SUCK FOR LIKING IT, so kudos for that  
We don't agree on much, but I feel for you that the MP line isn't what it used to be. As I felt for myself back when I had to buy two MPs just to get the Bluestreak I wanted. Or when I painted up my MP-10 with blue eyes and white pelvis/thighs only to realise 'hmm, this still doesn't do it for me'. Or when I bought a spare Wheeljack (and a KO Exhaust for the blue windows) and started stripping paint right before 14+ was announced. Thankfully I don't have to do that anymore  

 

I think they're including the accessories purely for completeness sake. Yes it's a less toy inspired deco BUT they're also optional parts that people might like. The Hasui run had the whole Amazon exclusive accessories thing so they're just tossing them in. In general the BW/G1 MPs have come with increasing numbers of accessories and while cartoon accuracy is the main priority they're still including things here and there either in the design or the accessories based on the toy for those who wish. I don't think Ironhide ever used the sled in the cartoon but he still has one (Ratchet did but Ironhide still got one too). Megatron's whole turret assembly is something that wasn't in the show but they still chose to design the stock and silencer to form it.
I feel like had Tracks been released now he might have included both guns for completeness.
They're definitely going MORE toy accurate on the Diaclone figures since primarily they're based on toys rather than fictional appearances such as Dreamwave or FunPub but I think there's are conscious decisions each time. Wheeljack + doesn't have the toy launchers but DOES have the immobilizer Exhaust came with which is more along the lines of things you'd have thought the main use of the mold would have. I don't think they really thought people would strongly want toy faces that much but there's nothing else Sunstreaker needs for toy accuracy so it's not like Cordon's getting anything unique or special outside of that. I'm sure they'll include more toy throwbacks with some of the newer molds going forward.

 

As I mentioned, I was getting them in-hand for about $45 USD -after- shipping (preordered, of course) so I'd say that the "mainline" price has definitely gone up, even allowing for some normal inflation.

The extra stripes and smoked windshield on MP-20 Wheeljack definitely hit the spot for me in ways the simplified 20+ doesn't. I was okay with the toon face and single launcher, though obviously having authentic launchers and the full visor as options would have been nice.

Where did you get a SPARE set of Loudpedal parts??  

I doubt we'll see much of that going forward, sadly. Tracks is not so bad, but his big flat shins really bug me, the forearms seem oblong and oversized, and the thighs are like 2x4s. I don't hate the figure, but it's stuff I can't un-see when I look at it.

Time is money. Sculpted detail does take longer and requires an additional degree of skilled labour. If we're looking at mold development costs as part of the overall cost, it's not nothing.

Really? I wouldn't have guessed. In photos, it looks like he's got a lot of bare yellow plastic. Meanwhile, just about every red part on Lambor is painted (badly).  

I mean bigger in the conventional sense, as in being physically larger than Sunsurge. I actually prefer the overall body proportions of MP29... Sunsurge is a bit lean in the legs and it makes his feet look funny. But at least he has realistic detailing I want, and stylistically, he actually looks like he belongs in the same series as MP Sideswipe. He's also more gracile than his twin (as Sunstreaker should be), and I can slightly mis-transform his legs to give them a more pleasing line. Also, I've swapped his head with one from a junker G1 Sunstreaker, so he's got that going for him too.  

I'd entertain the possibility, to be sure. He's still a bit short for my tastes, but he would actually be a good size for my personal Generations line-up. Aside from the price, the plastic colour, and the height next to other MPs, it's really a great mold.  

Leave it to Has/Tak to release what you were looking for immediately after you embark on an ill-fated kitbashing endeavour...  

I really prefer the Takara MP10 deco because it reminds me more of my original G1 Optimus figure. I keep hearing people complaining that their Takara MP10 isn't in cartoon colours, but nobody wants to swap with me for my Hasbro version, dammit!  

Ironhide's "sled" is more of a glorified accessory stand that I'm a bit ambivalent to, but I do like that they gave him his G1 toy launcher. I think some of these decisions are made on a case-by-case basis... Megatron's turret may not be a toon thing, but it's a well-known feature of the figure. They knew there would be complaints if it wasn't there (and his attachments needed to be there anyway for an accurate alt-mode). However, I notice he didn't get his infrared laser gun, or his Microchange sword. In the case of Tracks, I think they omitted those extras very deliberately, just as similar attachments have been withheld on other MP releases (like Megatron's toy-style face and chest).

Alternate "toy" faces are such a small bone to throw to fans... I wish they'd be a bit more generous with those elements. But I think Takara is well aware of what they're doing. They know that they can sell a whole other figure on the strength of a few tiny additions and a redeco... to me, it's pretty clear that they're keeping those things in reserve to bolster the value of repaints and such.

zmog

 

 At this point, just exchange contact #s and get it over with 

 

To be honest the toy version of Megatron is a rather baffling release to me. I don't think they've actually SHOWN toy accurate weaponry for him. With the regular MP36 (and really something I always felt with MP5) we have the TFTM gun and beam sword so while different his accessories still parallel the original. But plus Megatron only comes with a mismatched toon chest and faces (which also makes it odd that they didn't include an MC based smooth toy chest). You might be right and they may be saving those for a possible Megaplex and black Megatron but they're still rather odd omissions.

 

I actually think that going forward there will be less reason to include toy-based accessories. Because they could be saved for a toy-accurate + release (like 36+). I think it's less likely Tracks would come with his toy face and gun, and still just as likely that we'll get an MP-25+ with black limbs semi-gloss blue paint and those accessories one day.

Actually, for toy accuracy, Sunstreaker also needs Cordon's gun and shins. What's funny is that, like Tracks' removeable face plate, the shin plates on Sunstreaker are super easy to remove and swap out. It's almost like they planned to include the toy accurate ones with the original release, but decided not to (fuelling the idea of a future 39+ even more).

I think going forward we'll get those toy throwback itches scratched in Diaclone repaints (as usual), and with toy accurate repaints. Assuming MP-36+ sells well enough, of course.

Well the 5800 Yen price tag of the first three carbots is definitely a thing of the past. It was a pretty big jump between Sunstreaker and Ironhide price-wise, but then Sunstreaker is a lot better articulated.

Unfortunately some people have had issues with Loud Pedal's shins snapping off, so I picked up the head and gun from a seller on here who was parting out his Loud Pedal to help pay for a replacement.

Sideswipe had a fair bit of paint, but even the area around his shoulders was unpainted. With Sunstreaker, every single visible yellow surface is painted, except for the hinges of his butterfly shoulders, small neck plate and what's visible of his abs. It's pretty nice in-hand. When I showed Sideswipe and Sunstreaker to my friend, who knows nothing about TFs or action figures, he said Sunstreaker felt better-made, more solid and more premium.

Would you be interested in a possible MP-39+, with Cordon's head, gun and shins? I imagine it would tickle all of your MP Sunstreaker needs (except for the price)?

I'm curious, how highly do you rate articulation in your list of MP must-haves? I can see cartoon accuracy isn't worth the increased price tag for you, but is articulation a factor? I'm a posing junkie, so the line is absolutely incredible right now. Like a dream come true.

Many people's complaints about MP-29 do seem to stem from the colour and his size. People complain he isn't bulky enough, but really I think Quakeblast and Quakewave look ridiculous in that respect. If Shockwave was just upscaled to Megatron's height, I'm sure those complaints would disappear.

I don't think you're right about sculpted detail taking that much more time - and certainly not in the production phase? Maybe in the phase of creating the original moulds, although I imagine that's offset by the fact that they now need to make more moulds. I'm not a toy industry expert to really know the facts, there.

Haha, well there is a separate thread for 17+ for people to talk about that. And this is better than random I HATE THIS THIS SUCKS posts, right?

 

I think they definitely designed them with that functionality in mind, but also with the full intention of dribbling out the accessories across a 2 or 3 releases because it will be more likely to get fans to double-dip on a repaint with "new" options.

Much the same way that the chest and face options that came with THF Dynastron appear to be the same ones shown on MP36+... they were in the original CAD files for MP36 that THF obtained (ok, stole) and they just decided to include them. Admittedly, MP36+ looks damn sexxxy in that metallic finish, and it really hits the spot for a kid like me who owned the original Megatron (before it was stolen by another kid, so there's an additional aspect of pining there)... but considering MP36+ will likely clock in at 6 BILLION Canadian dollars, I'll stick with what I have.  

Odd... the shoulders on my Sideswipe, and my KO repaints, are all painted. Similarly, the only unpainted parts on Prowl are the bits that are all-black (forearms, bumper, undercarriage). However, if Takara replaces the somewhat flimsy single-pin construction on the hips and knees of MP cars, I'll consider that a worthy improvement at least.

The head/gun/shins would be welcome, but like Shockwave (too short) and Ironhide (too big, too simple) I have other grievances that are less easily accounted for. I just find MP Sunstreaker to be a bit too BIG relative to the other Autobot cars (and especially Sideswipe). It doesn't suit the character in my mind, and seeing him alongside his gang on the shelf, that's always going to feel 'off' for me. The much cheaper KO version of MP39 is out now, but even so, I'm holding back for that reason.

I love the articulation, but so long as it adheres to a basic standard, it doesn't trump aesthetics or price for me (and indeed, an excess of swinging hinges and finicky joints and panels can also diminish both the visual and in-hand impact as well). The MP line has been fine so far, and I only really could ask for few more double-knees. An ab-crunch isn't worth another 3000y to me.

They would for me. Making him Megatron's height while preserving his elegant proportions (and correcting his colour) feels like how he should have been. I still would have found the price too high, but with MP36 and the new BW releases, even Laserwave's pricing now feels modest by comparison. Quakeblast is a bit overly bulky and off-model, but I think he still looks good (the legs at least, are much more successful than Quakewave). He looks a bit more like some of the clunkier Marvel artwork, but he's still not a patch on that original G1 toy styling. Even Takara didn't quite nail it 100%, and some of the panel lines break up the surfaces a bit too much, but they did it better than any previous rendition of Shockwave. Similarly, whatever failings it has, MP36 was the only version to get Megatron's leg-shape right, and that was a big feather in their cap, I think.

Sorry, I should have said 'development phase' or something similar, as that's fairly irrelevant to actual mass production. But sculpted detail does take time and work and skill (especially if it's not just being cut-and-pasted in a CAD program). I imagine the designers at Takara are on salary, but adding those worker-hours to the development process is still an expense. Which is not to say that an EXCESS of surface detailing (especially poorly designed) necessarily increases the perceived value of an item. Balance in all things. There are plenty examples from the 3rd Party and KO world of surface detailing done poorly.

zmog

 

Yeah, that's right, the KO makers would never have come up with such good designs as 36+'s face and chest. I actually purchased the loose Megatron faces off ebay (including the 'killing Ironhide' smirking face), but they just didn't do it for me. The toy face looked off when the rest of the body was so toon accurate, and it was pretty clear that the smirking face wasn't fully refined before TT abandoned it (or else the KO makers just sculpted it wrong). This is something that bothers me about KO companies - originality. Stealing designs aside, why don't they do things with them that people actually want? Upscale MP-29 by 10-15%, in a dark purple. Or they could've even made the original Shockwave in dark purple long before 29+ was announced (which I would probably then sell to support TT, especially with the smaller eye, but still). They upscaled MP-8 (by too much, first off), but they don't make any improvements in articulation which the bigger size should allow. Exactly the same issue with the upscaled MP-21 - I can understand either making it match the other MP vehicles, or setting it at a regular scale like 1:24, but why just make it way too big, and still let it have hollow forearms and no wrist articulation? I guess I shouldn't expect originality or innovation from thieves.

It's like, why cover a song if you're not gonna bring originality to it? (and in an ideal world there would be an international body that could collect 'royalties' on behalf of TT from these KO companies for the designs they've copied)

Anyway, KO rant over  

36+ hits the spot for the kid in me who always wanted the toy of Megatron, but was never allowed it (Mom didn't like toy guns) and couldn't even find it in shops anyway. Way more than the silver KO. I dunno, the hit of nostalgia is so good that I don't mind spending some cash on it. It's the only thing I collect outside of guitars (and they take up much less space). Don't really understand people who complain about the prices of MPs but who also collect Hot Toys or USC Lego sets or Soul of Chogokin - just pick one instead.

I still don't understand quite what you mean about Sunstreaker being too 'big'. He's the same height as Sideswipe, and quite a bit narrower. Are you just referring to his backpack?




When I talked about the 'shoulders' of Sideswipe I should've been clearer - I don't mean his shoulder pauldrons. I meant the area around his neck (which was painted on 14C, but is still unpainted on 12+). The backs of Sideswipe's legs are also unpainted, while with Prowl the insides of his legs, the little flaps between his shins and feet and his hands are also unpainted. 17+ does have paint on the inside of his feet and legs.

When it comes to the development phase, I don't really believe that Hasui having to draw a bunch of greebles all over his figures was that much more time consuming, compared to Kobayashi who probably went through multiple different sketches to get the size and shape of Ironhide's trapezoid shins just right. Artists work at different speeds anyway, so I wouldn't say that the design team said 'OK, Hasui, you took waayyyy too long drawing all that detail on MP-10's legs, so no more detail'. Anyway, maybe some professional artists can chime in on that aspect (I know they're on here  ).

 

I'm not sure if 'originality' is what I want from KO companies, but definitely I'd like to see them paying more attention to how they knock stuff off... I see so many missed opportunities for repaints or combinations, and they don't always upscale items in logical ways (like that MP21... what's that supposed to scale with??)

But at the same time, I love the KO scene, because there are still some great pieces that come out of it. I have no illusions... I know these are stolen designs. But I don't feel too bad about it, since most of the time, they're items I either already own the official version of, or was never planning to buy anyway.

I have a half-dozen SOCs... all big ones. Obviously, you buy an SOC when you want the best rendition you're likely ever going to get of a favourite bot. So far, I think Bandai is still well ahead of Takara in terms of the quality they deliver, but regardless, MP36 still costs substantially more than even my biggest SOC, so the comparison and the sense of value-for-money still isn't on par.

Honestly, those pics are the first I've seen of the pair anywhere that doesn't make Sunstreaker look taller and more robust than Lambor... though the sense of proportion and style is still not quite a match, and the heads... hrmmm...

I know Sunstreaker and Sideswipe are "fraternal" twins, but I like it when they have at least some sense of resemblance (though with Sideswipe as the 'brawler' of the two). Of course, this is one of those times where the G1 toy molds run counter to the characterizations anyway, due to the bios getting switched. Oh well...

Still, with a head-swap and some detailing, maybe MP39 might match better than expected. Maybe I'll try one of those KO versions after all.  

Apparently, such minor touches are beneath my notice, so I probably wouldn't be able to ascribe a worthwhile dollar value to them.  

I think you're trying awfully hard to avoid admitting that more surface detailing is qualitatively and quantitatively more work... and accordingly a budgetary factor.  

...especially since "getting the size and shape of forms just right" is already inherent in the design process either way. It's not a matter of simply "drawing more detail" (although drawing takes time too, just ask an artist), but also the process of carving, molding, proofing, etc.. particularly if Takara still works with handmade prototypes through the process, instead of doing them 100% digitally (not sure how they work now).

I actually went to art school, and I've done a little bit of professional illustration work. I haven't worked with 3D design elements, but I've chatted extensively with some 3rd Party designers through their process (and provided feedback on in-progress designs) so I have a bit of insight into this. Working digitally has changed the game a lot, and some people just copy-paste detailing (or even entire joints) on their figures... but that's far from ideal. I think we've all seen examples of weak design on toys, where the detailing is crudely rendered or conceived. Sloppy work is usually cheaper work. I'm sure you're familiar with the old 'holy trinity' of design...? You can get something good, or you can get it fast, or you can get it cheap. Sometimes you can have two of these things, but you can never have all three.  

zmog

 

But, is it not right that even SOC have redone previous bots? Multiple times? So the best rendition is always changing, or open to opinion, much like in the MP line?

You're right that MP-39 doesn't fully match MP-12, but it's close enough for me (for now). I think he's superior in every way, but you may not. If MP-12 is exactly what you want from a carbot, then power to you. I just find it sad that 3Ps aren't better than what they are. I don't think any of the designers are artists in the same way that TT's designers are - maybe part of the problem is a lot of these 3P designers work alone? I'm not actually sure, but they would definitely benefit from some help in the design process. They all have issues with proportions and elegant lines, in my opinion. Even Downbeat, who's maybe 60-70% there (whereas TT are usually 80-90% there). I'd probably buy some 3P MPs if I actually thought they were as good as TT. But I'd rather have no Dinobots than to settle for Grinder and co.


Y'know, you could start saving up and if 39+ ever does come out, then you can support that aspect of the official TT line - put your money where your mouth is, and all that  

I'm 100% sure TT don't use handmade prototypes anymore. CAD modelling, then 3D printing for the initial prototypes, which I guess means that the time it takes to 3D print something would actually be less, if there are greebles breaking up the surface meaning less plastic used.
I mean that Hasui didn't pay attention to trapezoid shapes in his MPs. Everyone was rectangular and blocky (which is ironically what people complain about with Ironhide or Inferno). Like, literal rectangular blocks. No trapezoids on any of the legs of his bots (poor Soundwave). I think it takes more time to get that trapezoid just right. I kinda shudder to think how Hasui would've tackled Megatron or Shockwave's legs (I'm sure he would've worked something out, I do have faith in the guy - he is brilliant).

I actually think that you're stretching with this idea that the reason they stopped putting on greebles was to save money. Sorry, that's just like one of the most ridiculous things to me  
I'm not denying that it could have been a tiny positive budgetary side-effect of the change in aesthetics, but I don't think they cared about it at all when they decided to make Ironhide's shins bold and bare. I think the increases in parts count and the more complex transformations to give us toon accurate robot modes and real-world accurate cars are the main thing driving the budget up. Since flat surfaces are cartoon accurate, I don't think we can argue that cartoon accuracy has ended up cheaper
in any way, as the increase in parts count for those transformations largely outweighs any benefits in reducing time inventing greebles.

So, toon accuracy may look cheaper to some people, but it's quite the opposite.

 

Hey @SMOG , @Sam is correct as usual. Editing down "greebles"/surface detailing/extra lines, etc isn't a matter of cutting down cost/production time. In fact the skill and time required to focus on subtlety of shape, proportion, and clean design as a means to create something visually pleasing is at least comparable, if not more demanding than filling space with a bunch of "stuff" to create visual interest. Speaking here as a full-time artist/illustrator with an art degree, and maybe some of our other full-time accomplished artists (@RichP , @Zambot ) would agree. That TT actually brought on additional artist Yuki Ohshima to refine the aesthetics of the latest G1 releases only shows that they're actually spending more for that cleaner, sleeker, more anime accurate look.

@Sam - PREACH!

Regarding Prowl+, I'm STILL waiting on BBTS   . Thought about going with eBay or TFsource, but decided to stick with BBTS because I'm going to want their customer service is my copy's face is clawed up!

 

We already KNOW that the cleaner surfaces of the new(er) MP stuff isn't a function of cost-cutting, but an aesthetic shift as part of a house mandate for the line. Takara isn't going "flat cartoon" to save money overall, obviously.

However, your argument is inherently flawed by displaying immediate bias in the binary of "subtlety of shape, proportion, clean design" vs "filling space with stuff" - which privileges one method as somehow elegantly refined and attuned, and the other as a just slapping noise onto a form to distract from bad design. It's like saying "perfectly-grown golden apples from Mount Olympus are much better than moldy, overripe oranges from a bitter stunted tree"... comparison that says nothing about apples and oranges.  

It also shows that you're not actually reading what I've written above. You can have clean forms done badly (something I argue that Takara has done - MP Ironhide's legs look like they're made of old lego bricks). You can have intricate detailing done well. And both methods require you to spend time on getting the contour lines and proportion. Adding a balanced level of detail, well-sculpted to compliment the forms, and placed judiciously, is a process and an art unto itself - one that delivers visual impact and punch and authentic texture. Pretending otherwise seems pretty questionable.  

zmog

 

And your argument isn't flawed, by calling Ironhide's shins 'lego bricks', or all the posts you've written before explaining that you don't like the new aesthetics? Sure  

You're still arguing that adding the greebles takes more time than flat surfaces? Or are you now conceding that they could both take the same amount of time? Which is what DML and I are saying. Never mind which one is better, or which one any of us prefer.



To actually be on topic for once:
Love @Tony_Bacala's money shot here, this is what it's all about, right? Getting the crew back together