I think at this point the Autobots are brutal simply as a result of being in endless conflict for countless years. They're in survival mode at this point. Nature is not usually a nice place. Animals, humans in conflicts included, often have very nasty and brutal ways of dealing with prey or potential predators. You don't try to kill your enemies in the most kind or humane way possible in wars or survival situations. You try to end their lives as quickly as possible. The surviving Autobots have no choice but to be brutal when their enemies often out number them. Most, if not all of us, would do the same in similar situations. Most every living thing on the planet is brutal if pushed to the limits. Life finds a way, even if that way is violence.
I think you need to go back and re-read the conversation. The discussion was about whether TF is even trying to be realistic and I say they're not, they just portray the Autobots in this way to look cool.
First off, I'd agree Transformers is not trying to be realistic in many aspects, but I also think one needs to consider the fictional context, and in my opinion having the Autobots be more violent and brutal in this universe makes sense given much of the fictional context. And even if it were just to be cool, so what? The Rule of Cool definitely applies to Transformers. I don't see the issue here.
Yes, Autobots, but not Prime! Prme should be leading by example and if he's a bloodthirsty trash-talking maniac, then what makes characters like Hound or Grimlock stand out, really?
I have never viewed Prime in the films as bloodthirsty. There is no indication from any of the five films he enjoys fighting or killing, even though he is skillful at it. Also, like CKPRIME and I pointed out Prime is constantly hurling insults and talking trash in the original cartoon. Yeah, the insults are at the level of a Saturday cartoon in terms of offensiveness, but they are there nonetheless.
I simply don't see what differentiates the movie Autobots' situation from any other incarnation of the Autobots. And I disagree that rule of cool applies here, as it degrades the Transformers from characters to war machines fighting monsters. No matter how much TF has followed rule of cool, they almost never do so at the expense of the Transformers' character.
Now that's just flat out dishonest. At an early point where the characters were just coming into their own? Optimus was fist fighting with Megatron, it never showed him enjoying ripping people's faces off for crying out loud and even in the 86 movie it was ambiguous if he was actually going to execute Megatron.
First off, I actually don't think it's the Rule of Cool. I'm just posing hypothetically. But yeah, the violence of their enemies is definitely greater than that of the cartoons. Other than in the 1986 movie, what Autobot characters in the original cartoon ever died at the hands of the Decepticons? When did the Decepticons vaporize humans in the original cartoon? When did the humans work with bad Cybertronians to kill Autobots (Okay, so Mr. Berger was allied with Megatron, but he had no idea what the Decepticons were going to do in full, unlike Cemetery Wind)? Sunbow Optimus never dealt with Decepticons that murdered aircraft carriers and cities full of humans. He never had his predecessor stab one of his trusted Autobots in the back and work with the Decepticons to destroy a whole city. He never had humanity actually work with a bounty hunter and try to kill all of his remaining friends on Earth. Humans never melted down the remains of his friends in the original cartoon. No it isn't. There is literally ZERO indication from any of the five films that Prime actually enjoys killing. None. Zilch. He's been forced to kill individuals in tough situations and in often brutal ways, but that's simply to protect his friends and allies and stop the Decepticons and other antagonists from destroying more lives. He never smiles or laughs about it. He never says how enjoys it; he simply does what he has to do. Again, what evidence is there that Movie Prime actually enjoyed killing the Fallen? Answer: there is none. Saying, "Give me your face," does not mean he enjoyed it whatsoever. And I have seen that scene plenty of times. I think it is hinted pretty damn strongly that he was going to execute his old adversary if you ask me.
It is technically true that, by our own standards, few Optimuses face the sorts of things movie Prime does, but within the rules of each universe, they actually do. They face the worst horrors each universe is allowed to throw at them and they always stay noble heroes who cling to their ideals, because that's who Optimus is supposed to be. He's supposed to be an example, for the Autobots and for the audience and changing that for no reason is an insult to the character. I understand his character in AOE. The entire movie was about Optimus losing his faith in humanity and finding it again and it explores this story line quite a bit. ROTF and DOTM, however, are an entirely different matter. Optimus rarely pays any attention to the dead. There's a mere two, very brief, instances of that throughout the entirety of both films. His mentor's betrayal, that you mention, barely seems to effect him. As soon as Sentinel explains his very understandable reasons for his actions, Optimus immediately vows that their fight isn't over. He has almost no interest in winning Sentinel back to his side, yet is immediately obsessed with getting back at him for his betrayal. You claim there's no evidence that he likes to kill, yet there it is. It's everywhere. He'd rather put his enemies to death than let humanity build prisons for them, even when it comes to his own mentor, because he showed, as soon as Sentinel betrayed him, that he wanted Sentinel to die. He's clearly obsessed with killing.
Prove it. Really? "Megatron must be stopped, no matter the cost." That's ambiguous? Megatron says, "Why throw away your life so recklessly?" to which Prime replies: "That's a question you should ask yourself, Megatron." That's ambiguous?
Because there is no evidence he enjoys killing!!!!!! Realizing that he needs to kill someone and enjoying killing are two entirely different things. Build prisons for them? Where was this imaginary prison in DotM or RotF that the Autobots could have used to imprison the Decepticons and Sentinel? The Autobots are on an alien planet. They do not have the resources or infrastructure they had on Cybertron. Furthermore, imprisonment is a temporary state of being for a species that lives for thousands or millions of years. Cybertronians can have integrated or hidden weapons in their bodies. Wounds that would kill humans many times over are flesh wounds to Cybertronians. They can come back after being nothing but a head! If there is an enemy Cybertronian who is genocidal or willing to kill large numbers of innocents you don't just keep them in a cell on Earth. Killing is the best, no, the only, solution. There is zero indication Optimus enjoyed killing Sentinel. He doesn't giggle. He doesn't smile. He doesn't desecrate Sentinel's corpse in sadistic ways. He simply realized that he had to do it and not just put him in an imaginary prison. And if Transformers are indeed sentient beings, of course the war would take a toll on them as individuals over thousands of years. Optimus and the other remaining Cybertronians have no choice but to be obsessed with the war. It's a matter of survival. Plus, do you think that at this point in time any of the remaining characters are not changed by the war? I don't. I think that war and its realities are ingrained within all surviving Autobots, Decepticons, Knights, neutrals, etc. Perhaps one day the pendulum will swing back to a more peaceful state, but that has yet to happen, and even then the Autobots will not be as they were originally before the war. You can go back to peace, but you can't have it as if none of the violent events ever happened.
No, actually you are wrong. He does several times in Washington and Chicago. If he was really hell bent on killing he would have tried to kill Sentinel when he attacked Optimus at NEST. He doesn't try and kill Sentinel out side of the Lincoln Memorial.
Why should Prime act so self righteous when he let the Decepticons destroy the city in the first place? No, he didn't enjoy killing Sentinel, but he seems to take a certain zealous glee in destroying Decepticons, just look at the way he mocked Grindor when he ripped his head apart.
Prime didn't simply let the Decepticons destroy a city. The Autobots had no idea where the Decepticons were going to strike or even what their plans were. They were greatly outnumbered to the point that they had no choice but to flee away from the Space Bridge in DC when the Decepticons used it. What were they supposed to do? Each Autobot was supposed to stand guard of a different major city in hopes of stopping dozens or more Decepticons from capturing and massacring a city? You saw how how they kept the military completely at Bay before the Autobots sneaked into the city. That wouldn't have worked at all. And where is the indication he enjoyed killing Grindor? He did it for sure, but there is zero indication he liked killing him. Noting he was made of "Tin" does not mean he enjoyed doing it.
Right, so he "needed" to tear off the Fallen's face and he "needed" to crush his spark in his hand, rather than simply stabbing or shooting him? You do know the definition of the word "build", right? Yet the TRF managed to build a prison perfectly fine and that wasn't some sort of continuity error. There's no reason to think humans couldn't build a prison for TF. It's not like every single TF is a Sentinel level challenge. They can kill most just fine. The majority go down with ease. When given the information on how TF work, KSI was able to outright build fully functioning Transformers. Surely they could figure out how to restrain them and suppress their abilities (something KSI wouldn't have done themselves, as they were more interested in replicating TF abilities, as they didn't think they'd need to restrain their drones). Heck, in TF1, humans were able to keep Megatron and Bumblebee on ice. If the Autobots shared all their scientific knowledge with humans, they could easily have built a functional prison, after the first movie. You assume every psychopath is a cackling mustache-twirler. I'll elaborate in response to CKPRIME's post. He does once in Washington. His line "No, it's not the only way, this is our home now, we must defend the humans" is the only time he ever tried to sway Sentinel to his side. He doesn't even try to argue against Sentinel's (pretty spot on) assertion that, on Earth, TF are viewed as mere machines. He just vows that "It's not over". The only person who spared anyone at Washington was Sentinel, as he immediately got the upper hand on Optimus. Likewise, in Chicago, he's the one who engages Optimus in a brief exchange of ideals with his confused "I bring you Cybertron, your home and still you choose humanity" to which Optimus regurgitates his catchphrase which, while is technically an argument, wasn't going to do anything to prove that Earth can serve as a home to Cybertronians. Optimus was betrayed by Sentinel and was hellbent on revenge. He may not have taken an immense joy in killing him, but he likely took satisfaction. So where's the exploration of this? You don't simply make such a huge change to the depiction of the heroes simply because you felt like it and I don't just mean a change from the cartoons and comics. There was no roaring or insults, from Optimus, during the first film, even though the worst of the war took place before that film. ROTF introduced a deviation from both the source material and the the first film and why? So it can have Optimus be more brutal. No exploration of what motivates his character, no exploration of the morality of his actions, nothing. It's just something that makes Optimus look more cool, at the expense of what Optimus is supposed to be. Then why did he say it? You don't insult someone after they're dead to try and scare or enrage them into making a mistake. They're dead. The only reason possible is that it was for personal satisfaction.
Optimus doesn't really attack Sentinel in Washington, and since Sentinel doesn't immediately get the upper hand in Chicago it seems likely that Optimus was holding back in Chicago. Or he could have been "hellbent" on preventing the enslavement of billions of sentient lives. Which, you know, is part of the catchphrase that you mentioned he said. The look he has on his face when he throws down the gun after shooting Sentinel looks a lot like disgust to me, is what you think satisfaction looks like?
This makes no sense. Yeah, Transformers have Sparks, and crushing their Sparks is the most sure fire way to kill them. Also, how is tearing a robot's face off worse than shooting or stabbing them? It's still violence in a violent conflict. Furthermore, Prime has never once, ONCE tortured a Decepticon or prolonged any antagonist's suffering. He ends the lives of enemy combatants as quickly as possible. Brutal, yes, but clean. Get shrekt! Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know what build means. The point was they didn't have a prison during those films. It did not exist at the time. Furthermore, even if a prison does exist somewhere on Earth, when terrorists or armed criminals are actively killing or trying to kill people in the streets you don't try to deal with them in the nicest way possible. You have trained people dispatch them as quickly as possible. If a Decepticon was attacking humans or fighting the Autobots, they wouldn't try to be as nice as possible. You bring them down as soon as possible to avoid further damage. Let's say there was a human-built prison for Decepticons. It still wouldn't be feasible to arrest every Decepticon that attempts violent acts. Some, hell, most, would have to be killed out in the field. Also, humans keeping Megatron (perfectly posed, too!) on ice is one of the dumbest things in the movie franchise. And frankly, I'm not too crazy about the Decepticon prison thing either. If you are going to claim that Prime enjoys it, you have to provide evidence as to why he enjoys, and so far nobody has provided such evidence the hundreds of times this has been brought up because there is no damn evidence. It's people making stuff up to create a complaint. The worst of the war happened some time ago in the past. And if you had been away from something for some time and were suddenly thrust into it again that might bring back some PTSD-type stuff. Because he was still in the heat of battle. It's not like it was said hours later after he was reminiscing.
