15 year old killed by police over pellet gun.

[Zero Prime]

http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20060114/43c9d6d0_3ca6_1552620060115248243713

Check out the gun real close. Notice the barrell, it should be orange or yellow. This kids is why we can't have a Megatron as a gun.

[Jux]

He wasn't killed because of the pellet gun.

He was shot because he was foolish enough to point it at a SWAT member.

[DevilzFan]

And the stupidity of the current Teenage generation continues to not surprise me at all.

[Boo]

What a shame. What's the phrase..."police assisted suicide"? The boy had no intention of doing anything but dying. Only 15.

I hope the parents don't try to sue over this. It seems that so many of his classmates and aquaintances knew he was having problems... seems his parent should have too. He needed help, bad.

[Razerwire]

What a shame. What's the phrase..."police assisted suicide"? The boy had no intention of doing anything but dying. Only 15.

I hope the parents don't try to sue over this. It seems that so many of his classmates and aquaintances knew he was having problems... seems his parent should have too. He needed help, bad.
Yeah, you know how it is these days... Parents will find any excuse other than blaming themselves...

[Zero Prime]

Oh, Im sure they will sue. Otherwise they wouldn't have a lawyer already. And the family stating they tried to warn poilice that they don't believe it is a real gun.

[Jux]

Oh, Im sure they will sue. Otherwise they wouldn't have a lawyer already. And the family stating they tried to warn poilice that they don't believe it is a real gun.

They've got no grounds to sue on. They'll never win a dime. They've most likely got a lawyer for their own protection.

If I'm a SWAT team member, and something's pointed at me - I don't care if it's black, green, purple, clear, whatever. It's a threat, and it will be dealt with with the most extreme force needed to ensure that my life continues.

[Zero Prime]

Oh I didn't say they would win, just sue. This is America after all. People sue over stupid ass BS all the time. What sucks is sometimes they win.

[planetjacker]

If I'm a SWAT team member, and something's pointed at me - I don't care if it's black, green, purple, clear, whatever. It's a threat, and it will be dealt with with the most extreme force needed to ensure that my life continues.

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't care if the suspect was 3 or 300 if a weapon was pointed at me the first thought would be to fire my weapon and end the threat.

[Chaos Muffin]

Jux & DF is right, what that kid(RIP) did was very stupid. Should never point anything at a law enforcer , especially in the heat of the moment when their adreniline is twitchy.
When it's you or them, there's no thime to think what exactly they're holding if your life could depend on it. Especially if they're aiming that pellet gun at your head.

Hope other kids learn from this

[Hot Rodimus]

Darwin 1 | Stupid kid 0

[Greyryder]

I just feel sorry for the cops. They're going to have to live with the fact they killed a kid. It was justified, but it still can't be an easy thing to deal with.

[ams]

You all wouldn't believe the amount of coverage this is getting locally - and rightfully so, I suppose.

The latest tidbit of information is that when the parents were contacted and told that all of this was going down (and before he was shot), supposedly they told the police he only had access to a pellet gun or that it was unlikely he had a real gun.

If that is the case, you can bet there will be a lawsuit. They've secured the services of one of the local ambulance-chasers, the "Nation" law firm. As someone alse stated, it's always someone elses fault. :rolleyes:

Definitely tragic though. Very sad. :(

[Optimus-JD]

It doesn't matter if it's real or not. Police can't assume it's fake when it's being pointed at them in a threatening manner. When police start assuming that, we start getting a lot more dead police officers. No police department in America is going to issue orders saying we think it's fake so don't protect yourself. Hell, I bet the parents weren't even 100% sure. Bottom line is, the stupid kid shouldn't have had it at school pellet gun or not, and he damn sure shouldn't have pointed it at a police officer.

" more than 40 officers, including SWAT and negotiators, were on scene. He refused to drop the firearm, Eslinger said, and was shot after pointing it at a SWAT deputy"

Dumbass

[Cruellock]

I hope the parents don't try to sue over this. It seems that so many of his classmates and aquaintances knew he was having problems... seems his parent should have too. He needed help, bad.

Oh they're going to sue. They're going to sue the police, the Rockstar video game company and Take-Two Entertainment for making GTA games, countless movie producers, and probably Walmart, Sony, and Microsoft for allowing violent video games to be sold in a store.

There are so many stupid parents around now that think that money will bring their child back to life, or at least, ease their pain.

[Cheetatron]

I feel bad for the cops and the parents, but I hope they have the decency to not sue over this, It just makes us as a nation look bad.

[Wing alpha]

materialims kinda sickens me.

...but yeah if you point a a gun that looks like a real one at me and I have something I would shoot to ensure my safety I would try to shoot the gun out of his hands but according to what I have read it was next to imposible.

[RandomFerret]

This was no accident. He knew what he was doing, he knew he'd get shot, and he knew he'd die. They say suicide is the coward's way out, but putting that rope around your neck, taking that last step, that takes courage.

This little shit pawned all of his responsibility onto the cop, who now has to live with the crushing self-doubt the kid was too chicken to take to the grave.

[rattrap007]

Oh they're going to sue. They're going to sue the police, the Rockstar video game company and Take-Two Entertainment for making GTA games, countless movie producers, and probably Walmart, Sony, and Microsoft for allowing violent video games to be sold in a store.

There are so many stupid parents around now that think that money will bring their child back to life, or at least, ease their pain.
you know i was just about to say something about Jack Thompson sueing on behalf of these people. Sad the kid died, but it is his own damn fault...

[Draven]

I would try to shoot the gun out of his hands but according to what I have read it was next to imposible.
No. You wouldn't. You would have reacted to save your life and the lives of those with you, and put a hole through the little moron where it would do the most damage. You would have put him down, so he couldn't hurt anyone.
This was no accident. He knew what he was doing, he knew he'd get shot, and he knew he'd die. They say suicide is the coward's way out, but putting that rope around your neck, taking that last step, that takes courage.
This little shit pawned all of his responsibility onto the cop, who now has to live with the crushing self-doubt the kid was too chicken to take to the grave.
My thoughts exactly. there may be one less turd in the genpool, but the price for that poor cop is high.

[Boo]

This was no accident. He knew what he was doing, he knew he'd get shot, and he knew he'd die. They say suicide is the coward's way out, but putting that rope around your neck, taking that last step, that takes courage.

This little shit pawned all of his responsibility onto the cop, who now has to live with the crushing self-doubt the kid was too chicken to take to the grave.


Police assisted suicide.

Exactly what i meant earlier. The kid wanted to die, but didn't have the balls to just do it himself. In my mind, this is just as bad as people who go out and kill a bunch of people just to later turn the gun on himself... he's a coward, too afraid to die alone.

Except in this case he left his victims alive and now they have to deal with killing a 15 year old.

[Rattrap]

This is scary, Im no older than that kid.

[Boo]

This is scary, Im no older than that kid.

Really? For some reason i thought you were older than that. :peoples:

[Optimus_Prime84]

Well my opinion is that the SWAT dude should have shot him in the leg not in his head EVEN IF HE AIM at HIM Since SWAT STAND FOR Special weapon and TACTICS

the tactics is not to kill him but to hurt him so he dont do anything bad.

[rattrap007]

Really? For some reason i thought you were older than that. :peoples:
maybe you were thinking of me... I'm 26...

[rattrap007]

Well my opinion is that the SWAT dude should have shot him in the leg not in his head EVEN IF HE AIM at HIM Since SWAT STAND FOR Special weapon and TACTICS

the tactics is not to kill him but to hurt him so he dont do anything bad.
still the kid could shoot the SWAt guy in the face and kill him. They are properly trained for things like this. They did what was right. I'm behind the cop 100%

[Boo]

No Ratty, i wasn't thinking about you. I just seriously thought the other Ratty was older, too.:lol

And Optimus_Prime84, I'm not SWAT and I've never even fired a real gun, but I don't think your suggestion is realistic. Idealistic, yes, but not realistic. You shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all.

[TSFC]

1.) It would've been impossible to hit the kid anywhere but main torso. They're trained to shoot the largest bodymass, not the head, arms, or legs. (Too tricky and level of failure is at 99%)

2.) Cops are required to remove and use their firearm following police training. (I.E. can't yank it out of the holster, aim and pop someone.) They literally have to get into a stance of sorts, line up the target, make sure it's lined, then pull the trigger. How do I know this? A friend of mine was an intern for the city police and got a chance to train at the State Police training center here in town. A cop can be permanently punished (I.E. fired among other things) for not following procedure to the T. In fact, they proved my friend wrong, they gave him a plastic knife and said "Come at me. You'll kill me before I can fire off a shot." Sure enough, 3 out of 3. He would've killed the cop had it not been a training exercise. There's no way in hell (unless the cop cheated) that he could've hit the kid anywhere but stomach, chest, or back. Or he'd have to be the best damn shot in the world.

3.) One thing that gets me is, in all news articles I've read, they said he aimed the pellet gun at a Police Officer, and that a SWAT Member fired on the kid. I don't know about you, but that sounds like there was clearly more than one Police personnel involved, and the SWAT guy took the shot and no one else. Here's the problem....did he have the greenlight to fire on the kid? Or did he just shoot him and got it over with? If the parents can even prove an inkling otherwise...they could sue and win.

4.) When he had the pellet gun aimed at his neck, why not shoot him in the arm or leg then? That would've been the perfect time (and enough time) to set up the shot and just wound him. Hell, I don't know about you but if a piece of metal tore a hole in my flesh the size of Texas...I'd be dropping that gun. Either from the force or the "OH GOD! OH GOD! IT HURTS! SUMBITCH!"

5.) They said other students were harassing and tormenting him, leading up to this situation. The parents will sue the school for not keeping an eye on the kids. which in a way, I see the parents point. No, a teacher should'nt raise your child..that's your job, however they do have the right to reprimand and take control of a situation. When they don't do that, they're not doing their job to the full extent. And please don't tell me otherwise. (We both know a teacher can do more than they claim.)

All in all..I feel bad for the kid because he was emotionally disturbed and he lost his life. I feel bad for the family because they lost their baby (I don't care what age he is, he's their little boy, their baby.) I feel bad for the cops involved in the shooting of the kid (although I feel we might hear more come out on the newswire down the line.)

What a terrible situation. This world really is going to hell in a handbasket.

[rattrap007]

i'm i the only one who noticed he was 15 and in the 8th grade? He was probably held back a few times. Most 8th graders are 13-14. 15 seems a little old. He could practically drive himself to middle school..

[TSFC]

8th: 13
9th: 14
10th: 15
11th: 16
12th: 17

Yeah, most likely he was held back, however, he could've started school later depending on his birthday.

If that's what happened, then it's no fault of his own. Still does it really matter if he was held back or not? Seriously. Other than perhaps the other kids tormented him about it (we don't know, it's a guess). Overall though...who cares? He's dead now. Let him rest.

[aksmth]

Surprised it's taken this long in the thread to get the "shoot them in the leg" comment. To anyone that thinks that is feasible, go to a firing range and put a few rounds into paper. See how well you do, then throw adrenaline and a non-controlled environment into it. Granted an officer should be trained for the experience, however most of that training is aimed towards protecting everyone, not just the guy that's threatening.

[Zero Prime]

Well my opinion is that the SWAT dude should have shot him in the leg not in his head EVEN IF HE AIM at HIM Since SWAT STAND FOR Special weapon and TACTICS

the tactics is not to kill him but to hurt him so he dont do anything bad.

Let me teach you what would happen in the U.S. if that happened. The shooter would be sued for a shit load for maiming a person and failure to follow his duties. As a Law Enforcement oficer I can tell you that we are required to shoot to kill, not injure. We are also not allowed to give warning shots. In training you loose points if you hit the shoulder. You must hit center mass or the head. The SWAT member did his job and did it well. I salute him and have him in my prayers because it will be on his mind for a while.

As for the family going to sue, I'm sure they will as I stated earlier. Will they win, as JUX said, No. If they do it will be a tragidy of justice. Even if the parents notified the police that it might be a fake gun that doesn't matter. It looks real and the barrell was pointed at an officer's face. End of story.

[Cheetatron]

This was no accident. He knew what he was doing, he knew he'd get shot, and he knew he'd die. They say suicide is the coward's way out, but putting that rope around your neck, taking that last step, that takes courage.

I disagree, suicide is not a courageous way to end your life. I will admit it must take tons of will power to kill yourself, but will power doesn't equal courage. That is to say will power and courage are not mutually inclussive.

[Jux]

Well my opinion is that the SWAT dude should have shot him in the leg not in his head EVEN IF HE AIM at HIM Since SWAT STAND FOR Special weapon and TACTICS

the tactics is not to kill him but to hurt him so he dont do anything bad.

Okay. You shoot him in the leg. But, he's still alive, and he still has a weapon in his hand, which still makes him just as much of a threat as when he was standing up.

I know what SWAT stands for, but I've always thought a better definition was "We don't fuck around."

[Dolza_Khyron]

the job of the swat, was to disable him, and a leg, nor arm disables him, it gives him the chance to get off another shot, and the perp, won't aim for a leg, he'll aim for a head, even if they don't, i don't think i would want to take the risk of him killing me if my shot doesn't disable him, plus i bet he wasn't aiming for the head, i mean cops aren't prefect, he just ended up hitting his head.

also all do remember, cops are not perfect nor are swat, or any other law enforcement, like every other person in every other job, they just want to get there day over with so they can go home to there family, like you and me, and every one else, don't forget, people work for money, so they can feed there families, and a dead man/woman does not earn a pay check.

[Zero Prime]

the job of the swat, was to disable him, and a leg, nor arm disables him, it gives him the chance to get off another shot, and the perp, won't aim for a leg, he'll aim for a head, even if they don't, i don't think i would want to take the risk of him killing me if my shot doesn't disable him, plus i bet he wasn't aiming for the head, i mean cops aren't prefect, he just ended up hitting his head.

also all do remember, cops are not perfect nor are swat, or any other law enforcement, like every other person in every other job, they just want to get there day over with so they can go home to there family, like you and me, and every one else, don't forget, people work for money, so they can feed there families, and a dead man/woman does not earn a pay check.

Amen

[Dolza_Khyron]

i don't blame the cop at all. he wanted to live he wanted to go home to his family, that's all.

[The_Bardock]

Isn't this what tasers are for?

[Chaos Muffin]

Just realized there are 2 Rattraps.

[Jux]

also all do remember, cops are not perfect nor are swat, or any other law enforcement, like every other person in every other job


I would have to say that in this case, the SWAT officer performed his job flawlessly.

[Zero Prime]

Isn't this what tasers are for?

Tazers are short range without the prongs. nd even with the prongs there this little thing called muscle reflexes. Ever been shocked pretty good, kinda flexed up a little huh. Now imagine firing off that tazer at someone pointing a gun at you and that finger flexes. Tazers do not knock you down. If it had been a real gun that officer would have been wounded or killed. Besides, tazers are meant for non-lethal force during situations with combative inmates or prisoners.

[Jux]

Isn't this what tasers are for?

No.

[Zero Prime]

Wow, Jux. You made my long explanation absolutely unnecessary with one simple word.

[aksmth]

He's good like that.

[Rattrap]

No Ratty, i wasn't thinking about you. I just seriously thought the other Ratty was older, too.:lol

And Optimus_Prime84, I'm not SWAT and I've never even fired a real gun, but I don't think your suggestion is realistic. Idealistic, yes, but not realistic. You shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all.
Im 15, going to be 16 in March.

I can see why the guy shot him, the kid had the gun aimed, and he reacted. I probally would have done the same thing if I was in that situation. My guess is that the cop that shot the kid just shot, never aimed at the kid, he just wanted to make sure that the SWAT guy went home to his family that night.

[rattrap007]

Just realized there are 2 Rattraps.
But still only one Chaos Muffin

[TOM]

Sad........So Sad.

[Random Autobot]

I know what SWAT stands for, but I've always thought a better definition was "We don't fuck around."

Unfortunately, "WDFA" doesn't have the same snappy ring to it.

[Jux]

My guess is that the cop that shot the kid just shot, never aimed at the kid, he just wanted to make sure that the SWAT guy went home to his family that night.

His weapon was almost certainly trained on the center mass of the target the entire time prior to the actual shot being fired.

[Zero Prime]

Sometimes it's hard to get people to understand that when an officer has to pull his gun his job is pretty much to kill you, not to hurt you.

[Starsabrej]

All I can say is if you point a gun (real or fake) at a police officer you are dead. If you live consider yourself lucky when you are in prison for the next 10 to 20 years.

[Predaking]

Personally I don't think the kid or his family deserve any sympathy. Sure it's a tragic death but that kid asked for it and it's obvious he wanted to die that day. No blame should be placed on SWAT for doing their job.

[The_Bardock]

Tazers are short range without the prongs. nd even with the prongs there this little thing called muscle reflexes. Ever been shocked pretty good, kinda flexed up a little huh. Now imagine firing off that tazer at someone pointing a gun at you and that finger flexes. Tazers do not knock you down. If it had been a real gun that officer would have been wounded or killed. Besides, tazers are meant for non-lethal force during situations with combative inmates or prisoners.

Most police issue tasers i've seen do have the prongs to be able to used at long distance. Also when your body is shocked your hands can reflex in different ways, I know when I had my hand get one of those electric pads on it the muscles actually made my hand open up and now clamp down. Anyways my idea was more of a taser the guy before he even has a chance to point the gun at an officer. In the end I think they all did their job just fine.

[Cheetatron]

Personally I don't think the kid or his family deserve any sympathy. Sure it's a tragic death but that kid asked for it and it's obvious he wanted to die that day.
Clearly the kid wanted to die, but why aren't the parents worthy of sympathy? What was their crime, procreation?

[Jux]

Most police issue tasers i've seen do have the prongs to be able to used at long distance. Also when your body is shocked your hands can reflex in different ways, I know when I had my hand get one of those electric pads on it the muscles actually made my hand open up and now clamp down. Anyways my idea was more of a taser the guy before he even has a chance to point the gun at an officer. In the end I think they all did their job just fine.


Have you ever heard the saying, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Tasers are for belligerent people on the side of the road. When you start toting a weapon, and what's more, aiming it at officers, you've thrown out your "non-lethal alternative" eligibility.

[Predaking]

Clearly the kid wanted to die, but why aren't the parents worthy of sympathy? What was their crime, procreation?

I just have problem with them cuz it seems like they are preparing to sue the law enforcement by hiring a lawyer. It's nothing more than a kid getting assist suicided by the cops. While I feel for the parents they should mourn for their son and move on.

[Cobalt Agent]

I watched this crap on the news. From what I heard, he was on life support after he got shot. Why can't we stop trying to stop stupid people from dieing?

"He was emotional! He was bullied! He wanted to die!" Oh boohoo. Then he should have shut the hell up and killed himself, letting everyone get on with their lives. Why do people always make excuses for these cowards?

"Ooh, they should have tried to save him! Killing isn't nice!" As opposed to what this clown did? The cops and SWAT did their job. Frankly, I wouldn't feel guilty if I'd shot that panty waist. I wouldn't feel bad at all.

[Zero Prime]

Most police issue tasers i've seen do have the prongs to be able to used at long distance. Also when your body is shocked your hands can reflex in different ways, I know when I had my hand get one of those electric pads on it the muscles actually made my hand open up and now clamp down. Anyways my idea was more of a taser the guy before he even has a chance to point the gun at an officer. In the end I think they all did their job just fine.

Trust me, your muscles normally contract. We use them at work and to use the they must be used on you. But as Jux pointed out, you do not use them against anyone with a gun.

[TSFC]

Predaking, you're not in their shoes. You're not offkilter and lost right now. (Let's hope you never have to go through anything they did) If you were though, you cannot lie to us right now and tell us you wouldn't at least consider it. You can lie to yourself however much you want, but until you're faced with a situation...you'll never really know.

He said... "Live with a man forty years. Share his house, his meals, speak on every subject. Then tie him up and hold him over the volcano's edge, and on that day, you will finally meet the man."

Same idea applies here. Never say what you'll do in a situation, until you're faced with said situation.

And the parents are deserving of our mercy and our concern, and our sorrow. They lost their child, doesn't matter how or by who. They lost him. They did nothing wrong, nor illegal. Let them deal with this and hopefully heal.

No offense Predaking, people like you shouldn't be a therapist, you're the type that would say "Well if you're gonna kill yourself, here's a knife. Don't get no blood on the floor. Thanks."

Why do I say that? I can see you rubbing salt in the wound. DEEP.

[The_Bardock]

Have you ever heard the saying, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Tasers are for belligerent people on the side of the road. When you start toting a weapon, and what's more, aiming it at officers, you've thrown out your "non-lethal alternative" eligibility.

Well seeing as i've seen videos of officers using tasers on people with weapons that isn't exactly true. Also if you read what I said it was to do it before he had a chance to point the gun at an officer.

[Predaking]

Predaking, you're not in their shoes. You're not offkilter and lost right now. (Let's hope you never have to go through anything they did) If you were though, you cannot lie to us right now and tell us you wouldn't at least consider it. You can lie to yourself however much you want, but until you're faced with a situation...you'll never really know.



Same idea applies here. Never say what you'll do in a situation, until you're faced with said situation.

And the parents are deserving of our mercy and our concern, and our sorrow. They lost their child, doesn't matter how or by who. They lost him. They did nothing wrong, nor illegal. Let them deal with this and hopefully heal.

No offense Predaking, people like you shouldn't be a therapist, you're the type that would say "Well if you're gonna kill yourself, here's a knife. Don't get no blood on the floor. Thanks."

Why do I say that? I can see you rubbing salt in the wound. DEEP.


I can see your point. I am not a therapist nor do I want to be. I guess I am just not sympathetic to the parents' plight. Maybe this whole tragedy could be avoided if that kid can just let them what's bothering him and allow himself to be treated by therapist but we'll never know.

[Jux]

Well seeing as i've seen videos of officers using tasers on people with weapons that isn't exactly true. Also if you read what I said it was to do it before he had a chance to point the gun at an officer.

I did read what you said. It's not logical. Let me tell you why.

Negotiators were on the scene, along with SWAT officers. A SWAT officer is typically fully armed, and I doubt his first choice of weaponry is a tazer.

Now, let's say you're trying to negotiate the kid into surrendering and putting the gun down (i.e, the period prior to the kid pointing the gun at someone). Do you take the chance of tazing him and having him shoot? A taze does not guarantee the release of the weapon, or incapacitation of the subject. In fact, many people here have complained when police taze individuals, one aspect of it being that it could take SEVERAL tazes to fully incapacitate and subdue someone. The bottom line is, a tazer is not guaranteed, and when it's a situation that calls for SWAT, the life and safety of the criminal becomes the lowest priority.

No, in a situation like this, you have your negotiators try to talk him down, but the instant another officers life is directly threatened, you take the shot without hesitation. Like I said earlier, the minute this kid started waving around what appeared to be a loaded weapon, he waived all access to non-lethal alternatives.

[The_Bardock]

I did read what you said. It's not logical. Let me tell you why.

Negotiators were on the scene, along with SWAT officers. A SWAT officer is typically fully armed, and I doubt his first choice of weaponry is a tazer.

Now, let's say you're trying to negotiate the kid into surrendering and putting the gun down (i.e, the period prior to the kid pointing the gun at someone). Do you take the chance of tazing him and having him shoot? A taze does not guarantee the release of the weapon, or incapacitation of the subject. In fact, many people here have complained when police taze individuals, one aspect of it being that it could take SEVERAL tazes to fully incapacitate and subdue someone. The bottom line is, a tazer is not guaranteed, and when it's a situation that calls for SWAT, the life and safety of the criminal becomes the lowest priority.

No, in a situation like this, you have your negotiators try to talk him down, but the instant another officers life is directly threatened, you take the shot without hesitation. Like I said earlier, the minute this kid started waving around what appeared to be a loaded weapon, he waived all access to non-lethal alternatives.

I would say have 1 officer try to taze him while another officer is ready to fire incase it doesn't work and he then goes pointing his gun at them. I would argue though that 1 taze would probably be enough for a 15 year old kid. Also your arguement of non lethal alernatives being waved as soon as someone waves a weapon around goes against one of the reasons they are made in the first place.

(sorry if this turns into a double post I got a page error when i first tried to submit)

[Wing alpha]

Frankly, I wouldn't feel guilty if I'd shot that panty waist. I wouldn't feel bad at all.
Wrong
"Killing is not as easy as the inocent believes."-Albus Dumbledore

worse if its young

[Cobalt Agent]

Wrong
"Killing is not as easy as the inocent believes."-Albus Dumbledore

worse if its young

No... no I'm pretty sure I'd be quite content.

[Dragonclaw]

I feel for the parents, I really do, but I totally side with the SWAT team here. In this day and age the last thing police can let happen is another Columbine, had they not shot the child they would have been lambasted (and sued) for failing to act had any students been killed. You cannot take the word of the parents that "he PROBABLY didn't have a real gun". Especially with people at the school talking about him having a deathwish. Lots of red flags there that the parents may be wrong...dead wrong, and again SWAT cannot take that chance. Could you imagine the press conference the next day if 12 students were dead and the chief said "Well, we thought it was just a pellet gun" There would be unbelievable outrage at the loss of life due to a "bumbling" SWAT team. Instead when faced with a suicidal gunman the officer did the ONLY thing he could, he shot and killed the child. A descision the parents and the officer have to live with for the rest of their lives.
I see this as a faliure, but not of the officer. The parents, his friends, and the school failed this troubled child. But telling any of them that wont help any...The parents need time to grieve, but they don't deserve any $$$, especially from the police who did their duty in protecting the lives of the students in the building, the administration, and their own.

[jet convoy]

I would say have 1 officer try to taze him while another officer is ready to fire incase it doesn't work and he then goes pointing his gun at them. I would argue though that 1 taze would probably be enough for a 15 year old kid. Also your arguement of non lethal alernatives being waved as soon as someone waves a weapon around goes against one of the reasons they are made in the first place.

(sorry if this turns into a double post I got a page error when i first tried to submit)

Man, I don't know anything about police or SWAT tactics but why taze the kid and take the risk of his hand contracting and shooting the cop? I say the SWAT guy did the right thing.

Its fucked up for the parents, but the kid was asking for it.

[Wing alpha]

I would say have 1 officer try to taze him while another officer is ready to fire incase it doesn't work and he then goes pointing his gun at them. I would argue though that 1 taze would probably be enough for a 15 year old kid. Also your arguement of non lethal alernatives being waved as soon as someone waves a weapon around goes against one of the reasons they are made in the first place.

I think Jux and you are comming from two different points of view. In a way the way some see the things in an idealistic way, as In there is alwayas a better way than straigth to the kill , "kill or be killed" is not the way .

While Jux comes from the point of view where when you are out there you are with the responsability of save lifes, 1 life could save lets say a dozen, a small number can make a HUGE difference.

while I pointed out that I wished it was posible for him to blow the guns out of the hands of the kid (I even mentioned it was next to imposible almost)-which would take one hell of a shot, the aftershock is bound to take your aim off. also the target is too small and as mentioned they are trained to target the chest because is easier to hit-

all in all I belive the swat officer did what he thougth was rigth and in the end he did what he is payed for to protect and serve....

and yes humanity is fucked up.

[Wing alpha]

No... no I'm pretty sure I'd be quite content.
you be content of having killed a child?

I dont think so.

you be haunted by it.

as I said death is something that you dont fuck arround with.

[The_Bardock]

Man, I don't know anything about police or SWAT tactics but why taze the kid and take the risk of his hand contracting and shooting the cop? I say the SWAT guy did the right thing.

Its fucked up for the parents, but the kid was asking for it.

Ok one last time I am talking about tazing him before the gun is pointed at someone.

[Cobalt Agent]

you be content of having killed a child?

I dont think so.

you be haunted by it.

as I said death is something that you dont fuck arround with.

Yes. You lose the "innocent child" crap once you hold up a gun to productive members of society. Once you break that border you are no longer to be dealt with as human, not in my book.

But thanks anyway. Thanks for assuring me what I would feel.

[Wing alpha]

Ok one last time I am talking about tazing him before the gun is pointed at someone.
my experience with a tazer shock simulation reminds me that all humans have different effects to it for example the current going can posibly tigth your muscles hence pulling the trigger- or make you drop it so is eaither and astray shot which migth hurt an inocent or drop the gun. is an all or nothing..... as jux said dont bring a knife into a gunfigth.

[Wing alpha]

Yes. You lose the "innocent child" crap once you hold up a gun to productive members of society. Once you break that border you are no longer to be dealt with as human, not in my book.

But thanks anyway. Thanks for assuring me what I would feel.
I dont try to show you how you feel I speak from experience, death is something you do not fuck arround with.

and even if he was a coward that doesnt make it any less human. And as I said killing is somthing that is not as easy as the inocent believes.

[Jux]

I would say have 1 officer try to taze him while another officer is ready to fire incase it doesn't work and he then goes pointing his gun at them. I would argue though that 1 taze would probably be enough for a 15 year old kid.


Again - can you really afford to take that chance? Can you take the chance that a single taze could subdue him? Can you take the chance that in the moment of him being tazed, he wouldn't be able to get a shot off?

No, you can't. Not when it's become an escalated situation where it's your life or theirs. It's unfortunate that the kid was killed, but personally, I think it would've been dangerous for the cops to sacrifice their personal safety for the sake of a non-lethal weapon that was in no ways a guaranteed solution.

Examples:

1. Taser was by far "the most frequently used less-lethal weapon" employed in use-of-force incidents. In this study, it was relied upon to stop suspect resistance in 73% of confrontations

Source (http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/taser/articles/120718/)

73%. Impressive, perhaps. But to me, it's not good enough when ensuring the lives of officers. If you were to apply that effectiveness rate to this situation, it would leave a 1 in 4 chance of failure, meaning the kid could possibly shoot and kill an officer. Acceptable?

From the same source:


4. A single application of a Taser could not be relied upon to be successful unfailingly. Indeed, Taser was "ineffective" 23% of the time from a single application. However, the researchers point out, "Taser training stresses the use of multiple applications in order to bring a suspect under control."


Like I said, tasers are great tools for dealing with struggling and resisting people who could pose a potential threat. But in this situation, I don't believe it to be an effective or reliable solution, for reasons I've already stated.

In terms of why tasers fail:


Missing when firing a Taser is the greatest cause of failure.

Analyzing 50 cases of Taser failure, the researchers found that missing the subject with both probes accounted for 38% and baggy clothing worn by the suspect caused 32%. Other factors included: probe coming loose, 28%; suspect grabbing the Taser, 2%; unit malfunction, 4%; cartridge fell off, 2%. (Recent Taser improvements have addressed some of the failure problems, the researchers note.)

"A drawback to the Taser is that while the cartridges have an advertised range of 21 feet, it is not feasible to properly deploy the weapon at that distance and expect a successful outcome," the researchers report. At 18 feet, an average probe spread of about 30 inches is experienced, "which is too great to assume that both probes will hit their target as required for the Taser to be effective."


At what distance was the SWAT officer when he fired? The taser is a great close range alternative. But in a situation like this, I don't believe it was an option. One of the leading manufacturers of Tasers advertises a effectiveness range of "up to 15 feet." Again, I believe the main question here is, can you really take that chance? The chance of failure when the lives of officers are at risk?


Also your arguement of non lethal alernatives being waved as soon as someone waves a weapon around goes against one of the reasons they are made in the first place.


Tazers are made for several things. Subduing resistors, people who are fleeing, things of that nature. I agree that they're useful tools and have helped to save lives.

Tazers are not made for ending life threatening situations like this. It's risky, it's dangerous, and it's a luxury that officers in that position can't afford.

[Zero Prime]

Like I said before, some people don't want to understand an officers job. Thats why we take so much shit. Taze a person and its "Oh my God, they were to young, or, to old." Shoot a terson to save lives and its "They should have tazed them."

Listen and listen good. There is only one reason a gun gets pulled and waved, thats to discharge it. In a class room filled with kids who are you trying to say taze before the gun is pointed. Its already been pointed and now its time for Peter to do some work.

[The_Bardock]

Well we are just argueing differences of opinion so here I will just finish my part by saying yes I do think they should take that chance if there is a backup in place which is what I later started to talk about (with another officer ready to fire the lethal shot if needed). Anyways i'll leave this thread saying that option was not available it seems so the right thing was done. I like a debate and thank you Jux.

[The_Bardock]

Like I said before, some people don't want to understand an officers job. Thats why we take so much shit. Taze a person and its "Oh my God, they were to young, or, to old." Shoot a terson to save lives and its "They should have tazed them."

Listen and listen good. There is only one reason a gun gets pulled and waved, thats to discharge it. In a class room filled with kids who are you trying to say taze before the gun is pointed. Its already been pointed and now its time for Peter to do some work.

Ok so I won't leave right away, from what I read he was cornered away from other kids . Also a gun can be pulled to try and scare people without discharging it.

[Cobalt Agent]

and even if he was a coward that doesnt make it any less human. And as I said killing is somthing that is not as easy as the inocent believes.
Maybe it's not easy for you. If it wasn't as easy as it seems, there wouldn't be nearly as many murders as there are. Morality only goes so far. I for one don't treat rapists like people simply because of their DNA. I have standards, and so does society. You don't get rewarded for threatening to take lives; you usually have yours taken. Good.

[Jux]

Well we are just argueing differences of opinion so here I will just finish my part by saying yes I do think they should take that chance if there is a backup in place which is what I later started to talk about (with another officer ready to fire the lethal shot if needed). Anyways i'll leave this thread saying that option was not available it seems so the right thing was done. I like a debate and thank you Jux.

Why do you take that chance? Cn you justify risking the lives of other law enforcement officers? In that split second between the taser and the "backup plan" you're promoting, a shot could be fired and an officer or innocent bystander could be killed.

How do you justify that?

[TSFC]

I can see your point. I am not a therapist nor do I want to be. I guess I am just not sympathetic to the parents' plight. Maybe this whole tragedy could be avoided if that kid can just let them what's bothering him and allow himself to be treated by therapist but we'll never know.

Problem with that line of thinking is; when a person is mentally unstable, they don't know that they're "nuts" or abnormal, and don't want to see someone that can help them.

They just want their mental anguish (which they don't understand, especially at his age) to go away and bother them no more. If it comes down to death being the only out, then it's the only out. Talking to someone about it will help, but they don't know that, nor do they want to talk about an issue they don't understand is there.

It's like getting an Alcoholic or an Anorexic to admit they have a problem. Once admitted, they've made the first step towards recovery. It's a monumental task to get someone to claim they've got a problem, everyone wants to be right and no one wants to be wrong.

He'd have never willingly told his parents he had mental issues, that's why he went to his friends, because he knew they wouldn't spill their guts. Now imagine how they feel..."I shoulda told his mom, oh God, it's my fault." Something like that will stick with them forever. I really do pity everyone in this case, the cops, victim, families...yeah.

This was definitely a no way out situation and full of heartbreak.

[Wing alpha]

Maybe it's not easy for you. If it wasn't as easy as it seems, there wouldn't be nearly as many murders as there are. Morality only goes so far. I for one don't treat rapists like people simply because of their DNA. I have standards, and so does society. You don't get rewarded for threatening to take lives; you usually have yours taken. Good.
hum they are scum I can take that away however you treatth death as if it wasnt a big deal. Pulling a gun takes a hell of a lot of will power, same with pressing the trigger but just as all things that humanity has gone trough you get used to it, however that doesnt mean its not hard. and my problem is how you treat death as if it was a simple. is not and carries consecuences belive it or not.

[Cobalt Agent]

hum they are scum I can take that away however you treatth death as if it wasnt a big deal. Pulling a gun takes a hell of a lot of will power, same with pressing the trigger but just as all things that humanity has gone trough you get used to it, however that doesnt mean its not hard. and my problem is how you treat death as if it was a simple. is not and carries consecuences belive it or not.
I might have a problem killing say, anyone who doesn't risk the lives of others, but not some punk waving a gun around.

[Random Autobot]

I watched this crap on the news. From what I heard, he was on life support after he got shot. Why can't we stop trying to stop stupid people from dieing?

"He was emotional! He was bullied! He wanted to die!" Oh boohoo. Then he should have shut the hell up and killed himself, letting everyone get on with their lives. Why do people always make excuses for these cowards?

"Ooh, they should have tried to save him! Killing isn't nice!" As opposed to what this clown did? The cops and SWAT did their job. Frankly, I wouldn't feel guilty if I'd shot that panty waist. I wouldn't feel bad at all.

Ooohh... you're a hard man, aren't ya?

[Wing alpha]

I might have a problem killing say, anyone who doesn't risk the lives of others, but not some punk waving a gun around.
woah so you say you migth have a problem killing other people ... killing inocent or guilty takes willpower . because he is just a kid, as much as a dumb ass he was he never had a chance to live on,him dying is tragic .you dont fuck around with death plain and simple.

and as Random said you are hardman eh?

[Cobalt Agent]

woah so you say you migth have a problem killing other people ... killing inocent or guilty takes willpower . because he is just a kid, as much as a dumb ass he was he never had a chance to live on,him dying is tragic .you dont fuck around with death plain and simple.

and as Random said you are hardman eh?

I don't care if he was a kid. As soon as you decide you're old enough to start pointing weapons at officers, you're old enough to get your head blown.

[Wing alpha]

I don't care if he was a kid. As soon as you decide you're old enough to start pointing weapons at officers, you're old enough to get your head blown.
thats stupid.

I mentioned he was a dumb ass but that doesnt mean that he isnt human, nor old enough when one is that age is really easy to go batshit insane. while I aprove the officers action I still belive you are wrong by treating the issue with such misconcience sure he was a dumb ass but being young makes it tragic. specially all the chain that probably his death will cause, officers are human, and killing a child is posibly the hardest things to do.

[Cobalt Agent]

thats stupid.

I mentioned he was a dumb ass but that doesnt mean that he isnt human, nor old enough when one is that age is really easy to go batshit insane. while I aprove the officers action I still belive you are wrong by treating the issue with such misconcience sure he was a dumb ass but being young makes it tragic. specially all the chain that probably his death will cause, officers are human, and killing a child is posibly the hardest things to do.
The little morons "humanity" has no bearing on how he should be treated. So he was a kid; big whoop. He knew what he was doing. He deserves no sympathy.

<!-- ...and is misconcience even a word? -->

[Lance Halberd]

Just remember kids, everyone is the foremost authority on their own opinion.

[aksmth]

Just remember kids, everyone is the foremost authority on their own opinion.

Limed for truth.

[Wing alpha]

Just remember kids, everyone is the foremost authority on their own opinion.
yeah should have remembered that, is just that after the hell I came from in mexico city if someone treats death ligthly will piss me off....

[Dolza_Khyron]

about the taser thing, what if he had a bad heart? and the taser killed him anyways? when you use electricity, you get unprodictable results, this is why they stopped using the electric chair in most states, because you do not nessarily get the same result with every one, sometimes people do live the first few jolts, and has to be jolted again, sometimes several times, and sometimes they are just jolted once, and burn alive, electricity is very unprodictable on just how much or how little is released, or on how much or how little is enough or too much to stop a kid, plus when people use force, they need to use force back, or people will copy cat, if he got away with it, there would be a lot more, if they just gave him a slap on the wrist, someone else would try the same thing next week.

[planetjacker]

Like I said before, some people don't want to understand an officers job. Thats why we take so much shit. Taze a person and its "Oh my God, they were to young, or, to old." Shoot a terson to save lives and its "They should have tazed them."


QFT! Not an officer myself but I have a cousin who is. Let these people do thier jobs and be involved in your kids lives.

[Zero Prime]

QFT! Not an officer myself but I have a cousin who is. Let these people do thier jobs and be involved in your kids lives.

I am an officer, and I was saying that no matter what we do we catch shit for it. The public always bitches when we taze, but when we shoot the say we should have tazed. Lord help when 2 of our officers got shot, they returned fire and ended up shooting the guy in the ass and in the shoulder as he was running away and now they are being sued. Thats how ignorant a lot of the public is. Those officers were protecting them selves and are being sued over it.
:banghead:

[Kickback]

People who don't know what they're talking about should just stop posting in this thread. Here are the rules of law enforcement, kiddos.

#1
Protect and Serve

You see a person (kid, elder, walking dog, WHATEVER) holding a weapon and threatening himself, those around him, and you. For all you know, that weapon is cocked, loaded, and ready to go off. It takes a split second for the kid to aim and fire, longer than it will take you or your fellow officers to realize he's decided to shoot someone.

#2
Eliminate the threat with the least amount of casualties

The kid has a fricken' gun. A WEAPON CAPABLE OF KILLING IN ONE SHOT (depending on the target, the actual hit, the velocity of the bullet, the mass of the bullet, etc. etc. etc.). He's had it aimed at himself and those around him. He stupidly makes the gesture of removing the gun from himself or those around him and aims it at you and your crew, who just happen to have a score of automatic weapons aimed at him.

The chance of the kid shooting an innocent victim has just dropped from 99.9% down to 0%, because the gun is no longer at one of them.

The chance of the kid shooting you or one of your fellow officers, which is just like a big happy family, just jumped from 0% to 99.9%. But your duty is to protect and serve, even if it means taking the bullet. You decide to eliminate the threat for everyone because the only threat left is facing you.

You shoot.
Kid goes down.

Threat eliminated.

I don't give a fuck if the parents called and were like "OMG don't kill our son, it's just a pellet gun!" Yes, because officers can tell it's a pellet gun when he's so many yards away and he's waiving it around. You can't. You can't assume that it's a pellet gun. What if the parents were wrong? What if he had a real gun, they tried to just tackle him and he ends up shooting and killing someone? Uh oh, lawsuit against those parents, the school, the police department, and you've failed at your job because someone innocent got hurt because you didn't eliminate a possible threat, you chose to try the peaceful maneuver.

When someone has a gun and they're aiming it at people, you don't take any chances. It's them or you.

Let the lawsuits fly in. Hopefully they get a judge who will look at them and tell them a lawsuit is no excuse for poor parenting. The only lawsuits should be at the school and at the tormentors who pushed this kid to the edge. The police protected other people as they're supposed to. If we start sueing those who protect us for doing what they're supposed to do, then what the fuck are they there for?

RIP kid, you took a pussy way out yes, but I think all of us can relate to what bullying can do to one's heart and mind. And I do pity that it came to this.

[Dolza_Khyron]

my whole point was, what kickback said, and basically, don't blame the officers they were just doing there job, what they are paid to do, i am just glad no one else got hurt.

[Cheetatron]

Can we lock this thread up all ready, Its just "they should have shot to disable" vs "Cops are supposed to shoot to kill" were just arguing in circles and no one is learning anything new at this point. If this thread had a purpose I'm sure its been served.